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Posted: 9/7/2004 4:24:22 PM EST
What is up with conventional wisdom! I shot win 62's and Sierra 69's (over 23.5 Varget) thru a Med. wt. 1/12 Colt barrel last week, AND NO KEYHOLES AT 100 YARDS WERE SEEN. None.

The groups were larger than with 55's, 50's, and 45's. All the holes looked clean and round, period. Per Fackler, yaw as much as 70 degrees should have been evident, throwing accuracy out the window. But a 10 shot group of Win 62 went only 2.74 inches, not bad for "sideways" bullets...

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 4:43:55 PM EST
I believe it, but the thing you shouldn't do is compare the winny 62's to m855. M855 is a longer bullet than the 62's because of the steel penetrator tip. Just like a ballistic tip is usually longer than a soft point in the same weight. The faster twist is for mainly the "length" of the bullet, if my reading is correct. It doesn't surprise me if they shot alright though. That's why it's good to experiment. But what's the use if you can get better groups with a lighter bullet.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 5:05:59 PM EST
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 6:54:55 PM EST
I have shot M855 through a 1/12 Howa bolt gun... no keyholes at 100, but huge groups. out further, I'm pretty sure if you could manage to hit a target, you'd find keyholes.

In a 1/12 that bullet is marginally stabilized, one gun might hit ok with it, next one will keyhole at 50 yards and have barn sized groups--YMMV
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:32:50 AM EST
It would be interesting to see what happens at 2 and 3 hundred yards. I would like to have a 1/12 barrel too. All I shoot is 55 gr because anything heavier it totally uncalled for and should be banned!
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 5:47:44 AM EST
well twist is dictated by bullet length as well as weight. so the steel penetrator in SS109 would make it a longer bullet than an all lead 62gr. plus the 1/7 was really chosen to stabilize tracer which is even longer yet. if you try an SS109 load you might see some keyholing

right?
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 7:55:14 AM EST
I agree on the comments that SS109 is longer than all-lead 62gr, but he shot the 69gr SMK, which is about the same length as SS109, so that wouldn't be a factor. Sure, the bullet shape is different, but the length is very similar. Maybe he has a "fast" 1:12 rifle.

I'll bet he will see keyholes at 200 yds, though.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 7:57:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By markm:
It would be interesting to see what happens at 2 and 3 hundred yards. I would like to have a 1/12 barrel too. All I shoot is 55 gr because anything heavier it totally uncalled for and should be banned!



What is funny is that "we" never had a decent Arf platform to evaluate 1/12 twists "back in the day".

So when Fulton Armory showed a MEDIUM WEIGHT 1/12, made by Colt, I felt it was worth the trouble to assemble a "walking varminter" style Arf to play with. Initial results are very encouraging.

I also shoot lots of 55 ball, and mainly was curious about the yaw claims because I wanted to try the Sierra 65 Game King this fall on our "dog sized" deer. I have a 1/9 they WILL work from, but wanted to use the 1/12 rifle because it carries much better than an HBAR.

200 yard tests soon...

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 9:06:52 AM EST
Markm, I think that pogues that shoot light bullets should be banned. Or at least made to wear skirts.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 9:33:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By dcat:
Markm, I think that pogues that shoot light bullets should be banned. Or at least made to wear skirts.



Ah. We gots us a Marine here. Hey, Marines still use M855. That's not exactly a huge leap over M193.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 12:13:36 PM EST

Originally Posted By markm:

Originally Posted By dcat:
Markm, I think that pogues that shoot light bullets should be banned. Or at least made to wear skirts.



Ah. We gots us a Marine here. Hey, Marines still use M855. That's not exactly a huge leap over M193.




If anything, it's a step backwards.

A bullet that doesn't fragment---_kill_---as well as the M193 at realistic combat ranges, is less accurate, costs more... An Ivory Tower committee-designed bullet engineered to meet a performance standard that had no real world significance while being unable to fulfill the LMG/GPMG role intended for it.

A fine choice for the backwards step that is the M16A2: unneeded "rifle team" rear sight, lousy 3-round-burst mechanism that gives a dreadful inconsistent semiautomatic trigger pull, "heavy" barrel that bends as easily as the 'A1's barrel...

The M855 is a great choice if your enemies are made of tagboard and aluminum test plates. If they're made out of meat, the M193 will do a better job.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:54:06 PM EST
I agree for the most part. I do however like the Heavier barrel.
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 7:58:21 AM EST
AGC and markm, I thought we were discussing light vs. heavy bullets, but I can hang.

No disagreement of M193 vs. M855, I thought markm was knocking Mk262, etc. Agree that M193 is great for lightly clothed ragheads close up. At any distance, the Mk262 shines. Also shines for M4 all distances.

Agree on three round burst and do not agree with premise behind it. If you have time for aimed fire, then SA is better, if not then you need FA. Shame Army can't teach their doggies to hit crap or to let off the trigger before they dump a full mag. Agree three different trigger pulls sucks.

I like the A2 - longer stock, better handgrip, better forearm. I also like the "rifle team" rear but agree it is not necessary for issue rifles. HB doesn't matter to me other than it is just that much heavier to lug around - so I sorta agree with AGC.

I hate agreeing this much.

Link Posted: 9/9/2004 10:08:30 AM EST
200 yards...Sierra 69's...STILL NO KEYHOLES!

She did manage to put 5 rounds of Win 45 jhp's into a group INSIDE 1.25 inches @ 200 yards, so the "walking varminter" concept is going to work out well enough.

Paladin
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 10:15:54 AM EST

Originally Posted By PALADIN-hgwt:
200 yards...Sierra 69's...STILL NO KEYHOLES!

She did manage to put 5 rounds of Win 45 jhp's into a group INSIDE 1.25 inches @ 200 yards, so the "walking varminter" concept is going to work out well enough.

Paladin



Damn...

Link Posted: 9/11/2004 11:30:05 AM EST
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