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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/12/2003 10:28:32 PM EDT
will the m4 config or barrel in 16'' reach 600 yards if you use a 1 in 7 or 1 in 8 barrel can this work to hit the black or it won't make it?
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 3:22:32 AM EDT
Of course the gun will make it. Question is, will the shooter have the skills to make it happen?
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 4:44:10 AM EDT
Not that you'd shoot a known 600 from a 300 yd zero, but to give you a reference. Faster twist allows heavier bullets. The one in my head at present 77 gr at 2730 w/ 300 yd zero going to give you something like 80" of drop at 600, 200 yd zero over 100". Correct me if I am off here. It will "reach", but 600 yds is a way off regardless of barrel length. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 3:40:31 PM EDT
It will reach, use your elevation drum on your A2 sights. Target will have to be at least 36" across for you to see it behind the front post. On a scoped flat top you will have much more fun. Heavier bullets are more consistant out there.=)
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 3:50:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Alacrity: but 600 yds is a way off regardless of barrel length.
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This is exactly what I was thinking. AT 600 yards not only do you have to account for the wind speed and direction at your possition but you also have to aount for the wind speed and direction down range as well. Also by the time you get out to 600 yards what started as a slight .5" movement of the rifle when you fired will become sveral inches. The decressed volcity at 600 yards will only compond the issues I have addresed above. They say a .22lr can go up to 2 miles so of course you rifle is capable of making a bullet go 600 yards. The real question is were it will impact when it gets there.
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 5:23:19 PM EDT
Let me ask the question differently can the m4 or the 16" hold the black on a 600 yard target.Have any of you shot it at this distance?
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 5:28:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/13/2003 5:34:00 PM EDT by inkaybee]
I shoot my 16" ar at 600 meters on a regular basis. It has a 5.56 chamber, a chrome bore and I shoot M193 ammo. I can hit a 10 inch steel plate about 80- 90 percent of the time off of a bipod. In short it is very possible. With a match grade barrel and match grade ammo I think it would be no problem. My set up is not particularly accurate and I am not a great shot. I get maybee 2" groups at 100 yards. Edit to say: I just read your last post and I have no idea how big the black is on a 600 yard target. How big is it?
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 5:35:09 PM EDT
KevinB has shot out to 900 meters with the Canadian version of an M4. But he will tell you that you can indeed make hits out to 600 meters with an M4.
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 5:55:14 PM EDT
The 14.5 or 16" Carbines have no trouble reaching out to 600. IIRC a USMC Shooter took the PACfleet with an M4A1 in 2001 - and they shoot 500m... I have shot at 900m as 123 alludes - I ended aiming about 45ft up this pinetree at the butts... I shot a USN Service Rifle Match out to 600yds (or M?) a few years ago with a 14.5 w/ ACOG and had no trouble getting expert... Now I think I would have had trouble (getting expert) with irons - but that is cause I dont shoot enough iron.
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 8:10:27 PM EDT
Thanks guys I wanted to build a m4 and make it light for someone who is ill and can't handle the 8 pounds of a servive grade weapon.He wanted to shoot accross the coarse and needed a weapon that is light enough.I think the m4 will make it possible.I'm still thinking about a lite 20''but the m4 is just great all around.By the way the black at 600 is 36''
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 8:14:24 PM EDT
I have heard of US Army experiments, where they were getting competetive (in NRA highpower competition) groups with 14 inch barrels and heavy bullets. You need a scpe though, because a 12 inch sight radius aint gonna cut it.
Link Posted: 11/13/2003 10:09:35 PM EDT
I shoot both a 14.5" and a 20" in service shoots out to 500m and have no trouble keeping the rounds on target. I use an Elcan with both barrels to do this if that is of any interest.
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 5:24:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gun_Addict:
Originally Posted By Alacrity: but 600 yds is a way off regardless of barrel length.
View Quote
This is exactly what I was thinking. AT 600 yards not only do you have to account for the wind speed and direction at your possition but you also have to aount for the wind speed and direction down range as well. Also by the time you get out to 600 yards what started as a slight .5" movement of the rifle when you fired will become sveral inches. The decressed volcity at 600 yards will only compond the issues I have addresed above. They say a .22lr can go up to 2 miles so of course you rifle is capable of making a bullet go 600 yards. The real question is were it will impact when it gets there.
View Quote
Gun: All true, but to be fair I dont want to make it seem more difficult than it is. It gets done, and done well, most every weekend at NRA highpower service rifle matches - with iron sights and reasonably stock Ar15s. At 600, X-ring is 6", 10 is 12". Top shooters in a given match often score more than 10 bullseyes, most everything in the 10. I often score better at 600 than I do closer - but not because the variables are less magnified - I just shoot better prone. As KevinB alludes, there are plenty of other long range matches where this gets done. Optics simplifies things, for the reasons noted above. M4 has a short sight radius. KevinB: Were you using What bullets were you using 69gr Matchking or something heavier? Luck Alac
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 8:42:55 AM EDT
I can't remember exactly, but I believe that KevinB was using the Canadian equivalent of M855 which I think is C77? So that isn't even match ammo, although I think that the Canadian C77 might be more consistent than US M855, but I might be wrong. KevinB will show up and make everything clear. KevinB, do you think with a 14.5 W/ACOG and non-free floated, you would have the ability to place a round first shot into a man's chest at 600 meters. Or what exactly was your rifle setup? And before anyone gets all PC with me for asking if he can put a round in the someone, remember that he is in the military, that is what he trains for.
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 9:10:52 AM EDT
Canadian mil-spec ammo is rumored to be superior to US ammo.
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 9:17:18 AM EDT
The Canadian C77 ball is a near match round - it is possible to shoot submoa with it. I have shot with both 77gr and other stuff out to 900m. I would suggest that it is possible to hit at 600m an enemy target COM using a M4A1/ACOG/M4RAS system combo. However it would be difficult to do on the two way range under field conditions - I would rather have a SPR or SAW/LMG shooter do it. I shot a bunch of huns heads (fig14's) @ 600m oneday with a C8A1 type setup - I was avg 8/10 KZ hits - but that was KD on a sunny day with no stress. It is the nut behind the bolt and the conditions he is placed in.
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 10:50:15 AM EDT
What about those hammer forged Diemaco barrels? Do you think that they are better? Everyone acted they they are the shit when SMGlee posted pics of his. I now that hammer forging is cheaper in quanity because although the machine is super expensive, the mandrel is like 25 bucks right? Just wondering if you think that they are better...
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 11:19:05 AM EDT
Should have known it was C77. Nice you're able to confirm what I've heard about it. The real bug in the ointment at long distances is range, wind induced drift a close second. At a known range in calm winds you'd be surprised what can be achieved by even novice shooters. Matches standardize the most crucial variable- distance to target. Hell I couldnt tell you the comeups for 721yds. But I can click in a arc for 600 as habit. Off the range an accurate determination of distance is crucial - nail down this variable quickly and your solution is simplified. Makes field shots tough. Makes it difficult to compare capabilities at the range and in the field. Since the discussions moved off the range, anyone comment on how well these various rangefinder (ACOG, laser, anything) work and how practical they are to utilize under field conditions? Hardly ever shoot an AR with glass so I'd be interested. Luck Alac
Link Posted: 11/14/2003 1:50:06 PM EDT
I've used the range finder on a number of scopes and like the shepard the best.For the fastest zero but have hit the target using the mil dot system but not on the first try.The springfield scope I have when not banged seemed to hold it's zero at all the distances on deer size targets.I like to keep zero's in my head for service rifle and it's usually the wind at long range that gets you guessing .A lot of practice at distance reading the wind to hit the target at the long line.Waiting and studying the wind and understanding the ballistics and constant of wind conditions.Will a shooter hit the mark on the first shot.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 6:30:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 123whisper: What about those hammer forged Diemaco barrels? Do you think that they are better? Everyone acted they they are the shit when SMGlee posted pics of his. I now that hammer forging is cheaper in quanity because although the machine is super expensive, the mandrel is like 25 bucks right? Just wondering if you think that they are better...
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Hammer forged are more durable. Im not aware of any inherent accuracy advantage. Lot of AK barrels are hammer forged. Not sure its much of an issue with chrome lining, but the only barrels Ive shot out arent chromed lined or hammer forged - so I dont even have a baseline to judge from. Jar: Ive got a Shepard on a 10FP I varmint with; sad to say Ive never used the ranging feature - just not enough land here. Nice enough scope otherwise - glad to hear someone likes the rangefinder. I get more pissy comments about that scope. Ive shot a bit with Mildot recticles, and used various optic rangfinders. I was more curious about the ACOG and other more AR specific stuff, or other no optic rangfinders. Thanks for the answer tho; Funny sounds like we shoot near exactly the same stuff. Luck Alac Only thing worse than wind drift is thread drift.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 7:41:03 AM EDT
I find it difficult to practice range estimatioin with my acog because once I have shot at a particular location I know the ranges. I seems to be getting harder and harder to find new places to shoot. How do you guys with range finding reticle scopes practice with them?
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 4:09:08 PM EDT
Inky do you really want to know...[0:)] In all seriousness for civilian applications take it off the rifle and go out and range people with it. Record your data and either pace out or lase the distance.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 4:27:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/15/2003 4:34:17 PM EDT by 123whisper]
For some reason, I would have never thought of that. Kinda sounds like fun really. One more reason for a #19S. I could probably spend a good half hour in a big mall parking lot with an ACOG, a note book, pen, and an eye-safe laser rangefinder. Just looking through the ACOG, guessing, writing it down in the notebook, then lasing, and writing true distance down.
Link Posted: 11/15/2003 7:36:19 PM EDT
Alacrity ya only cause I buy what works. I never spend money on stuff that isn't quality or practical.I used that shepard at 1000 once and hit the target first shot.I used it at 600 with the 270 weatherby mag and it was perfect never lost a click and my group ya could cover with a half dollar.I like my ar's and would like to have a weapon that will still hit the mark at 600.The acog's are something for me down the road.I might opt for a ziess maybe for the shooting I do would be better or a leopold.
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