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Posted: 4/22/2004 8:52:53 AM EST
I am looking into a .22lr conversion. I do NOT want a dedicated upper. I have read about alot of problems with the Ciener, I was also looking at the Bushmaster one but have not heard any feedback on them. Any info would be great. Will the .22lr wear out the barrel or any other parts of the gun quicker?
Thanks
Link Posted: 4/22/2004 9:23:41 AM EST
The bushmaster kit is the ceiner. From my experience, i've put about 8k rounds through my ceiner with no problems or maintainence other than normal cleaning and lube each 500 rounds or so.
Link Posted: 4/23/2004 4:12:11 AM EST
I just picked up the Ceiner and it works just fine in my Rock National Match. Searching for the best ammo now. The accuracy was much better than I expected after hearing horror stories, but then again I have a real good upper.
Link Posted: 4/24/2004 10:43:40 AM EST
Does anyone know who makes the DPMS kit and how well it works?
Thanks
Link Posted: 4/24/2004 12:55:06 PM EST
I had a Ciener and it constantly jammed even after I was able to make some mods and get it running a little better.

My DPMS is 100% reliable out of the box in about 300rds fired. I would say DPMS HANDS DOWN! It;s way higher in terms of quality too.

Cieners mag springs are also too heavy and don't help with reliability or loading.
Link Posted: 4/24/2004 12:55:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 4/24/2004 12:56:06 PM EST by Green0]
I pushed post twice when it wasn't going fast and it posted twice and there isn't a delete button I can find. Sorry.
Link Posted: 4/25/2004 10:46:01 AM EST
I think the DPMS kit is in fact the old colt kit. Now the colt kit was modified and improved from their old military M-261 which was made by Saco defense industries, then a subsidiary of Colt. I think DPMS bought the rights to manufacture the Colt kit. Now, this system, if they left it true to its original lineage has one major weakness or flaw. The position plate spring, which held the gun properly positioned in the upper, would break after about 5k rounds. I went through several in a years time. Not expensive, but something you had to have on hand. I have only seen photos of the DPMS drop in kit as opposed to their complete uppers, but if they kept this feature its gonna cause a problem eventually, usually while you are shooting. Ceiner does not have this drawback. Easy fix, get both, and sell the one you don't like. I'm happy with my ceiner for now, it has not failed me in all the shooting I've done with it. If it ever were to wear out to the point it needed to actually be replaced instead of just serviced, I would not be opposed to considering the DPMS offering, but someone would have to convince me that it is better than what I have now.

As for DPMS complete .22RF uppers, they are top notch in every way. I have seen and shot them and had I not already owned my current arrangement of a Colt 1-14 carbine barrel and upper with a ceiner kit, I would certainly have bought the DPMS complete M-4 styled upper.
Link Posted: 4/25/2004 11:05:54 AM EST
I have had a Ciener unit for a few years now......the main problem I have found is the feed lips in the mags.....once they are properly fitted...(spaced).....your good to go...thousands of rounds fired with little trouble....
Link Posted: 4/26/2004 3:16:33 PM EST
Are the DPMS and Ciener mags interchangeable?

Also will the BUIS sights and EOTech be on target if zeroed with .223 @50yds, if so to what distance?
Thanks
Link Posted: 4/27/2004 1:25:07 PM EST
Ciener & DPMS mags are not interchangable.

By my calculations a scope zeroed for .223 is about 22 clicks off from the .22 setting. Can't remember if the scope was set for 50yd with M193 or 100yd with USA 45gr though. The .22 setting was either 25 or 50 yds. On the detachable handle the ".22" setting for 25yds is a couple clicks from the 400m setting (higher I think). So I would expect the .22s to shoot quite a bit low at all ranges based on a 50yd .223 zero.

PS: I thought DPMS only made complete uppers...
Link Posted: 4/30/2004 9:47:25 AM EST

Originally Posted By shotar:
I think the DPMS kit is in fact the old colt kit. Now the colt kit was modified and improved from their old military M-261 which was made by Saco defense industries, then a subsidiary of Colt. I think DPMS bought the rights to manufacture the Colt kit. Now, this system, if they left it true to its original lineage has one major weakness or flaw. The position plate spring, which held the gun properly positioned in the upper, would break after about 5k rounds. I went through several in a years time. Not expensive, but something you had to have on hand. I have only seen photos of the DPMS drop in kit as opposed to their complete uppers, but if they kept this feature its gonna cause a problem eventually, usually while you are shooting. Ceiner does not have this drawback. Easy fix, get both, and sell the one you don't like. I'm happy with my ceiner for now, it has not failed me in all the shooting I've done with it. If it ever were to wear out to the point it needed to actually be replaced instead of just serviced, I would not be opposed to considering the DPMS offering, but someone would have to convince me that it is better than what I have now.

As for DPMS complete .22RF uppers, they are top notch in every way. I have seen and shot them and had I not already owned my current arrangement of a Colt 1-14 carbine barrel and upper with a ceiner kit, I would certainly have bought the DPMS complete M-4 styled upper.



I saw an old Colt kit in packaging at the creek. There were slight differences between it and the current DPMS "Horner" unit. These differences were minor.

I have had only slight experiences with both units. The Ciener unit malf'ed a few times during the first magazine. After the malfunction, we began having click-nothing malfunctions. The primers were undented. What had happened was that during the first stovepipe, my friend had not properly tilted the rifle to the side to clear it. Cieners magazine design allowed the crushed empty case to get back into the fire control pocket. Once this was fixed, the unit worked fine. No accuracy testing was done.

The Horner unit was sent back because it didn't work. Guy sent me the ammo he was using, Remington Subsonic. Ok, so I thought, well normally Remington subsonic works in semis, but lets put some power point in because I know that works. And it did. I fanned the whole mag. Go load up the mag with the ammo he sent back with the unit. And it worked just fine and pretty positively. Ends up that he bought the kit for his first AR15, he lives at the edge of town, so he wanted the 22 kit for some low noise practice. He hadn't even fired any 223 through it. Well, sent the unit back to him and told him how it worked. Then said to put some 223 through it to see if that worked. Well, his Colt SP1 didn't even work with that. So that is a mystery.

I think that the Horner/DPMS unit will overall have less friction in the design. It has a rifled chamber adapter, Ciener doesn't. Ciener has 30 round mags, DPMS doesn't. Ciener has a sear trip adapter if you want to use it in your M16, DPMS doesn't. Not that it would be really fun with just 10 round mags anyways.

The DPMS 22 conversion uppers use some of the same parts at the conversion unit.
Link Posted: 4/30/2004 5:53:12 PM EST
I've just started playing with an M261 I bought several years ago. So far it only works reliably with Federal Walmart Bulks and CCI Minimags. It doesn't like lead bullets and it doesn't like standard velocity. I'm shooting it in a 1:12 GI barrel and accuracy with the MiniMags is surprisingly good, like a little better than a half inch @ 25 yards--about what a "normal" .22 automatic rifle will do. Accuracy with the Federal stuff is more like 3/4" @ 25. On advice of the fellow who posted here about the positioning spring breaking, I just ordered some spares of that today from Sarco. It'll be interesting to see if I have the same problem.

I'm surprised at how well this thing works with ammo it likes, and how it doesn't work AT ALL with everything else. Never had a gun so ammo-picky before! :)
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:08:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/5/2004 10:09:08 PM EST by Green0]
"Ceiner does not have this drawback. "

Yeah it has about 15 different manufacturing/design defects that cause malfunctions in its place.

I have read probably 75 posts from Ceiner owners with jams, and I have had nearly every one of their diagnosed problems with my old ceiner, I just took the DPMS out and fired another 500rds with no malfs of any kind.

Besides the DPMS upper will group about 1/3inch at 25yds, and the ceiner around 5inches at 25yds.

Live learn, stop buying Ciener products.
Link Posted: 5/5/2004 10:10:44 PM EST
By the way the best part, I didn't have to play dremel magic or even lubricate the DPMS to get it to work.

All I did was remove it from the box, put the upper on my lower, load up and fire.
Link Posted: 5/6/2004 3:53:30 PM EST

Besides the DPMS upper will group about 1/3inch at 25yds, and the ceiner around 5inches at 25yds.


Well, FWIW...I haven't seen this with my Ciener Kit in a 16" Colt 1/9 barrel. I regularly get 1-1.5" groups at 50 yards. Avoid supersonic or hypersonic rounds and it has worked great for me.

I'm not saying that everyones barrel shoots like this but, I guess I got lucky!
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 5:32:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Green0:
"Ceiner does not have this drawback. "

Yeah it has about 15 different manufacturing/design defects that cause malfunctions in its place.

I have read probably 75 posts from Ceiner owners with jams, and I have had nearly every one of their diagnosed problems with my old ceiner, I just took the DPMS out and fired another 500rds with no malfs of any kind.

Besides the DPMS upper will group about 1/3inch at 25yds, and the ceiner around 5inches at 25yds.

Live learn, stop buying Ciener products.



Yeah, I was one of those suckers who got taken for a ride. It had to go back 4 times, with the upper, and it still didnt' work worth a crap. 3-5 failures to fire/or fail to feed in one lousy 30-rd mag was simply unacceptable. Their 1911 unit for my Springfield 45 frame was even worse. Stay the hell away from anything Ciener makes.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 11:00:07 PM EST
"Well, FWIW...I haven't seen this with my Ciener Kit in a 16" Colt 1/9 barrel. I regularly get 1-1.5" groups at 50 yards. Avoid supersonic or hypersonic rounds and it has worked great for me.

I'm not saying that everyones barrel shoots like this but, I guess I got lucky!"


I guess you did. I don't know how that works out, it is simply the wrong twist rate, the bullets come out spinning off eratically every couple rounds. It happened with every upper I ever used one in.

.22lr twist rate is 1/16in ar-15 is 1/7-1/9 if you use aguila SSS with a ciener unit it will shoot the host weapons accuracy, but otherwise that Ciener statement is totally FALSE.

Yeah and the Ciener people are bastards to deal with, they are just insulting. I'm glad others have put out better products so I don't have to buy them anymore.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:01:42 PM EST
Woohoo, FINALLY able to log in again after a week of no joy! he
So far the M261 conversion is working pretty well for me in the AR. Just got several spares of that positioning spring thing so I'm ready to handle breakage of that.
Link Posted: 5/14/2004 6:14:02 AM EST
Well just an update:

The first time I took it out it would no go into battery on every shot. I then realized the the Ciener bolt was bone dry and I didnt have any CLP with me so I went home.

Second time out, I had a clean gun and the Ciener bolt properly lubed and she ran perfect. I hope it continues to work this well.
Now to buy some 30 rounders cause re-loading that one 10 rounder is a PITA
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