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Posted: 3/17/2006 4:34:37 AM EST
i hear the canadian or diemaco c7 from time to time on here. a search turned up nothing for me. the a1 with forward assist and shell deflector always seem to pop up when refering to the C7. i have one of these uppers and was thinking about a new build. i went to diemacos sight and they have some weird stuff. anyway i saw no a1 uppers at all. there was a C7A1 but it has an A2' ish upper. the C7A2 has a colapsable stock.

what size buttstock is on the 20 in version. i have heard both ways A1 with A2 hardware and strait up A2. what shade of green is that and who has a color close to it.

i may even go with the flatop since i have an older ELCAN that is not searving any duty.

any help would be appreciated
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:05:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 5:08:14 AM EST by Dominus]
This might help if you haven't already looked here:

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diemaco_C7

There's a chart at the bottom with a breakdown of some of the features of the various models.

The C7A2 is undergoing some changes (it was a half-assed 'solution' that didn't solve the problem), and will probably be very different by the time it is adopted as the standard rifle. Take a look at the C7A3 proposals to see what's being suggested.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:18:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dominus:
Take a look at the C7A3 proposals to see what's being suggested.



You wouldn't happen to have a link to those? I checked the wiki entry but found nothing about the A3.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 5:48:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 6:00:00 AM EST by Dominus]
The A3 isn't anything official, it was just a proposal made by some members of an infantry unit IIRC. Basically a 16" midlength with a modular rail system, an EoTech sight (and BUIS), and some other minor features (ambidexterity upgrades).

The newer C7A2s being tested in Afghanistan with 16" carbine barrels and EoTechs are kind of a compromise.


Edit: Found it

Infantry Rifle/Carbine Modernization

I think the guy who put it together is a member here.

Edit: More Stuff Here
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 7:00:46 AM EST

Originally Posted By machinehead:
i hear the canadian or diemaco c7 from time to time on here. a search turned up nothing for me. the a1 with forward assist and shell deflector always seem to pop up when refering to the C7. i have one of these uppers and was thinking about a new build. i went to diemacos sight and they have some weird stuff. anyway i saw no a1 uppers at all. there was a C7A1 but it has an A2' ish upper. the C7A2 has a colapsable stock.

what size buttstock is on the 20 in version. i have heard both ways A1 with A2 hardware and strait up A2. what shade of green is that and who has a color close to it.


The C7 upper is an A2 upper with a fixed carry handle, but with A1 rear sights. The C7A1 is a flat top, but IIRC the rail is not a mil-spec one, its a proprietary deal. This might've changed with the purchase of Diemaco by Colt (Diemaco now being Colt Canada). Diemaco did have both uppers with fixed carry handles with A2 sights, and detachable ones, both ostensibly for the LSW, one of the major impetuses for the A2 sights being developed in the first place. However, Diemaco also made the only detachable carry handle featuring A1 rear sights that I know of. The C7A2 is essentially the same as the A1 in terms of its recievers, it just has additional features and a collapsable stock.

As for the stocks, whatever the initial models were made with, all the fixed rifle stocks are definitly completely A2 now. I would think the only instance where an A1 stock with A2 hardware would've been installed would've been in the initial production versions as the appear of the Colt 715/C7 is at a transitional point at Colt, and such discrepencies appear with the development and production of the M16 PIP/M16A1E1.

As for anything else, I'll stick by the table...because I wrote it.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 7:25:08 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 8:23:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 8:24:08 AM EST by desertmoon]
the C7 looks a lot like this rifle here ( one of my builds ) but it uses the normal M16A2 round handguards instead of the pretty triangular handguards that I have on mine. The buttstock is the original A1 length, I believe.



essentially it's an M16A1 with the A2 style shell deflector....in the opinion of a few folks ( as of late ) the C7 is probably the penultamate M16 rifle design. I certainly prefer it, but to each their own....which is one of the nice things about the AR-15 in general.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 9:21:34 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 9:22:30 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Dominus:

The newer C7A2s being tested in Afghanistan with 16" carbine barrels and EoTechs are kind of a compromise.




Wouldn't that be a C8A2?


I know my buddy carried a 16" Diemaco flatop in Iraq, but I don't think that was considered a C7
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 9:24:22 AM EST
Considering all of the model numbers available for the AR family these days I think my next build is giong to be called the 25OR624 !!!!
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 9:41:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Dominus:

The newer C7A2s being tested in Afghanistan with 16" carbine barrels and EoTechs are kind of a compromise.




Wouldn't that be a C8A2?


I know my buddy carried a 16" Diemaco flatop in Iraq, but I don't think that was considered a C7


The C8A2 (Diemaco C8FTHB) has a 14.5" barrel just like an M4. A 16" would not be a standard C8A2, nor would it be a standard C7A2. In general, while these mid-length weapons have been seen, they're being called C7A2s generally because most people believe they were built on top of C7A2 lowers. I would think such a non-standard weapon might not enjoy an official designation just yet.

As for the stock issue, whether or not the origional C7s had A1 stocks, all you have to do is go to www.diemaco.com (now Colt Canada) and looked at the picture of the C7A1. That's definitly an A2 stock. Beyond the C7, C7A1, and LSW, no other Diemaco weapon featured a standard fixed stock, and even then only the C7CT even featured a fixed stock of any kind. So really, its a debate over what the C7 stock was, because the C7A1 stock is definitly A2. I go back to my statement that it could easily have been A1 or some A1 combination at the beginning, given the transitional nature of Colt weapons at the time, and that the C7 was directly licensed from Colt (Model 715).
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 10:26:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thatguy96:
As for the stock issue, whether or not the origional C7s had A1 stocks, all you have to do is go to www.diemaco.com (now Colt Canada) and looked at the picture of the C7A1. That's definitly an A2 stock.


I suggest using the Archives and checking out what Kevin B has to to say.

There are other issue options available. You can get either a longer or shorter (A1) stock than the A2 so that it fits the soldier. IIRC this is done at unit level.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 10:27:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Thatguy96:
As for the stock issue, whether or not the origional C7s had A1 stocks, all you have to do is go to www.diemaco.com (now Colt Canada) and looked at the picture of the C7A1. That's definitly an A2 stock.


I suggest using the Archives and checking out what Kevin B has to to say.

There are other issue options available. You can get either a longer or shorter (A1) stock than the A2 so that it fits the soldier. IIRC this is done at unit level.


I would say that's a Canadian military issue, and has nothing to do with what the from factory configuration is. Thanks for the info though.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 10:33:19 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 10:41:25 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Thatguy96:

Originally Posted By DK-Prof:

Originally Posted By Dominus:

The newer C7A2s being tested in Afghanistan with 16" carbine barrels and EoTechs are kind of a compromise.




Wouldn't that be a C8A2?


I know my buddy carried a 16" Diemaco flatop in Iraq, but I don't think that was considered a C7


The C8A2 (Diemaco C8FTHB) has a 14.5" barrel just like an M4. A 16" would not be a standard C8A2, nor would it be a standard C7A2. In general, while these mid-length weapons have been seen, they're being called C7A2s generally because most people believe they were built on top of C7A2 lowers. I would think such a non-standard weapon might not enjoy an official designation just yet.



Thanks for the clarification.

So a flat-top, 16" carbine diemaco would be a C8A1 ?

Here's a (bad) picture - I'm pretty sure he told me it was a 16" barrel. Maybe it was Diemaco's SFW version?

(... or maybe it's just the 14.5 version - to him, the C7 and C8 are just the "long" and "short" rifles )
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 10:49:04 AM EST
From that picture, short as it is, looks like 14.5". The only 16" weapon I know of from Diemaco is the SFW, but maybe the C8CT is 16" too. I don't know of any of the C8s being 16".
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:05:33 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 11:07:16 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By Thatguy96:
From that picture, short as it is, looks like 14.5". The only 16" weapon I know of from Diemaco is the SFW, but maybe the C8CT is 16" too. I don't know of any of the C8s being 16".




You know what - I just looked at some other photos of danish units in Iraq, and they all do look like the 14.5 (without the stepped barel) version, NOT the 16" - so I think you are right.

The slight wrinkle is that when that particular picture was taken, he was serving with the danish jaegerkorps, which is a special forces (SEALish) type of unit, so maybe it's possible that they had some of the SFW rifles?


Probably just a 14.5" version after all.

Thanks.


ETA: Although the danish army do list THIS on their website (as a picture of a carbine in their inventory), which looks like a 16" barrel to me.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:22:46 AM EST
That's a picture of the SFW with an M203 on Diemaco's mount.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:24:06 AM EST
tag for later info
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:29:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By Thatguy96:
That's a picture of the SFW with an M203 on Diemaco's mount.



Thanks!


So I guess it's possible that it was 16 - but I think you're right that it's 14.5. Oh well - maybe I'll never know.

Next time he comes to the U.S. I'll have to put a 16" and a 14.5" AR in his hands and ask him which one it was more like
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:50:02 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dominus:
The A3 isn't anything official, it was just a proposal made by some members of an infantry unit IIRC. Basically a 16" midlength with a modular rail system, an EoTech sight (and BUIS), and some other minor features (ambidexterity upgrades).

The newer C7A2s being tested in Afghanistan with 16" carbine barrels and EoTechs are kind of a compromise.


Edit: Found it

Infantry Rifle/Carbine Modernization

I think the guy who put it together is a member here.

Edit: More Stuff Here



Thanks for those links, Dominus.

I recently started a thread in here related to this subject:
ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=269435

Further discussion on another board:
p103.ezboard.com/ffreefirezone42044frm8.showMessage?topicID=56.topic

There was a very comprehensive two-part article on Diemaco in Small Arms Review, Vol. 9 No. 1 (Oct 05), and Vol. 9 No. 3 (Dec 05).
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 11:52:47 AM EST
Just to clear up the issue on the C7 buttstock.

-original C7's and C7A1's use an A2 buttstock, however;

-a short and long butt were available, the long butt simply had a spacer put in between the butt and butt plate. The short butt was close to A1 length but it was marked with a C and a smaller S inside of the C, I believe that this stood for court/short (bloody bilinguism).

The rail on top of the receiver is Weaver, we adopted this system before the word picatinny even existed.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 1:14:35 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/17/2006 1:19:40 PM EST by Thatguy96]

Originally Posted By Leg:
Just to clear up the issue on the C7 buttstock.

-original C7's and C7A1's use an A2 buttstock, however;

-a short and long butt were available, the long butt simply had a spacer put in between the butt and butt plate. The short butt was close to A1 length but it was marked with a C and a smaller S inside of the C, I believe that this stood for court/short (bloody bilinguism).

The rail on top of the receiver is Weaver, we adopted this system before the word picatinny even existed.


Are the short and long stocks something that's done in house by the Canadian Army or did they come from Diemaco?

I also notice that Colt Canada is now offering flat tops with either a weaver or picatinny rail.
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 3:11:02 PM EST
great info guys. im learning alot. i just picked up a case of molson and ready to learn more
Link Posted: 3/17/2006 3:13:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Considering all of the model numbers available for the AR family these days I think my next build is giong to be called the 25OR624 !!!!





Link Posted: 3/17/2006 8:11:10 PM EST

Originally Posted By Bumblebee_Bob:

Originally Posted By desertmoon:
Considering all of the model numbers available for the AR family these days I think my next build is giong to be called the 25OR624 !!!!








I am glad someone got that!!!!
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 3:38:46 AM EST

Are the short and long stocks something that's done in house by the Canadian Army or did they come from Diemaco?


I believe that the stocks came from Diemaco although I'm not a hundred percent. The long stock is just a standard stock with a spacer so this is something that the army may have done in house, but the short stock is/was a seperately manufactured item. I think I might ask the weapons techs if they still have any lying around.

The Canadian Forces has always issued weapons with different butt lengths available to different shooters going all the back to the C1A1 and even the LeeEnfield days and maybe even earlier. To be honest I was surprised to learn that the Americans issue only one butt length. This must be quite problematic for the folks of smaller stature and the females.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 5:35:56 AM EST

Originally Posted By Leg:

Are the short and long stocks something that's done in house by the Canadian Army or did they come from Diemaco?


I believe that the stocks came from Diemaco although I'm not a hundred percent. The long stock is just a standard stock with a spacer so this is something that the army may have done in house, but the short stock is/was a seperately manufactured item. I think I might ask the weapons techs if they still have any lying around.

The Canadian Forces has always issued weapons with different butt lengths available to different shooters going all the back to the C1A1 and even the LeeEnfield days and maybe even earlier. To be honest I was surprised to learn that the Americans issue only one butt length. This must be quite problematic for the folks of smaller stature and the females.


Actually, a lot of people have complained about the length of the A2 stock when combined with the "fattening" effect of web gear and body armor, and some have been said to prefer a shorter stock length given how much additional distance from the actual shoulder all this stuff creates.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:20:09 AM EST
No one has mentioned the camo he's wearing. Is it desert CadPat? It looks good to me.



He also has a "Thermelt"...

TS
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:27:14 AM EST
Looks like the current Danish desert pattern which is more akin to German Flecktarn (sp?) than a true digital pattern.
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 7:29:09 AM EST
black rifle/tan desert
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 8:19:59 AM EST

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
No one has mentioned the camo he's wearing. Is it desert CadPat? It looks good to me.

photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=45675

He also has a "Thermelt"...

TS




As Thatguy96 correctly pointed out, it is the Danish camo pattern (originally adopted in 1984 -in black and two shades of green, and then redesigned/recolored for desert use when we went to Afghanistan and Iraq).

There've been no problems with the Thermolds in the desert that I've heard of, btw. Plus, the original problems with the canadian "thermelts" were because they first ones didn't use the correct ingredient (Zytel) in the manufacturing. Later version corrected this, and those are the versions that Denmark adopted. Still - Danish troops do like the USGI mags as well (I've seen a very few pictures of danish troops using USGI mags) - don't know if its just because they are different (and therefore cool) or because they actually prefer the function.

Link Posted: 3/18/2006 10:17:07 AM EST
I like the camo pattern, there are even hints of green in it. As far as the "Thermelt" comment goes, I was just pointing out what kind of mag he had. I've read about the melting problem being fixed years ago in one of your threads I think. I'd like to have a set of that camo...


TS
Link Posted: 3/18/2006 10:43:45 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/18/2006 10:57:15 AM EST by DK-Prof]

Originally Posted By TigerStripe:
I like the camo pattern, there are even hints of green in it. As far as the "Thermelt" comment goes, I was just pointing out what kind of mag he had. I've read about the melting problem being fixed years ago in one of your threads I think. I'd like to have a set of that camo...


TS




There is a little bit of green in the pattern, but it'll vary randomly from uniform to uniform. Most of it is the tan and brown, however.

At the risk of taking the thread off on a tangent, here are a couple of more pics (but at least there is Deimaco C8 goodness in two of the pictures):





Link Posted: 4/14/2006 10:02:28 AM EST
so fron teh above pics it looks like i can take my black elcan and mate it up with a flattop 20 in upper and put on an old school collapsible stock, that would give me an C7A2? correct? i may fudge and use a dcm freefloat tube and a hbar on it i have laying around, still undecided. if i can find a fron rail tri-ad i wont cause it would be useless witha free floated barrel. anyone know where i can get a tri-ad at?
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 10:12:12 AM EST

Originally Posted By machinehead:
so fron teh above pics it looks like i can take my black elcan and mate it up with a flattop 20 in upper and put on an old school collapsible stock, that would give me an C7A2? correct?



Doesn't the C7A2 have the tri-rail mounted on the FSB? You can see a picture of it here: diemaco.com/c7-page.htm
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 10:15:51 AM EST
The C7A2 also has ambidexterous controls.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 10:20:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 4/14/2006 10:33:32 AM EST by machinehead]
it clamps some where in there. it looks to clamp on the barrel and the top part of the front sight base. if i used the tri-ad or something like it i would attach a bipod off of it. that would negate the use of a free floated barrel since the bipod would be attached to the barrel then and no longer free floated. ive seen things like the triad but not too awfull close to use for me. im sure i would never find one to use though.

ETA when did they switch to the green furniture. does anyone have real world pics of the green besides diemacos website?

i cant even find a nella bayonet to go with it. a had a line on one but the guy backed out on the trade. seems the canadian stuff is hard to get.

is the battery stowage grip just a plastic piece that goes in the grip or is it the one with a trap door on it. eta. i found it on diemacos site. its just an insert for the standard grip by otis. holds 2 AA batteries. i dont see a use for it with the elcan sight though.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 10:44:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By machinehead:
.... holds 2 AA batteries. i dont see a use for it with the elcan sight though.



For the Laser or Tac-lite that can be attached to the Triad.
Link Posted: 4/14/2006 11:41:18 AM EST
If you want to be really "authentic" you'll also want to try to find the C7 BUIS, which is really hard to find.

I got one from a guy in the Danish army (traded him for some other stuff), but I have not seen it for sale anywhere.

Link Posted: 4/14/2006 12:12:00 PM EST
im going off the pic up top. he does not have the BUPS (back up plastic sight ) id put one on if i could find it. i searched the archives and there was one that went for $60! i have an add up for one but no bites. i was in canada on a deployment a couple years ago but i had no thoughts of doing a c7 then.
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