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Posted: 9/7/2004 4:34:18 PM EDT
Alright, for you vietnam era buffs out there I got a couple questions. First, the only two variants of ar's or m16's however you want to call them, I've ever seen is the regular a1, 20" barrel with the ole tapered handguards and such, and the commando (car-15) 11.5 with the 5.5 suppressor thingy, with the telescoping buttstock. Are these the only two variants that saw action in vietnam?

Secondly, I only remember seeing the (car-15), whatever the proper name is for it, with 30 round mags. I don't believe I remember seeing a regular ole a1 with a 30 round mag. I could be wrong but that's how I remember it from pictures. Isn't that kind of odd?

If anyone is wondering why I'm asking is I'm just interested. I would like to someday build a collection of these era guns. Plus, I think it's a bum wrap that people on the tv and other idiots in the world think that every guy that went over to vietnam is some kind of druggy wastoid that killed babies. It pisses me off. Another reason to not like Kerry. "Oh, I'm a hero but we did terrible things there?" Well which one is it shit for brains? Well anyways, thanks to any of you who served there and anywhere else for that matter. And just know just cuz the ying yangs on tv say it was a terrible war doesn't mean the rest of us give two craps about their "opinion" of the war. Plus I know ya'll kicked some real tail over there. We may not have won politically, but that wasn't the soldiers fault.
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 7:48:51 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/7/2004 8:19:29 PM EDT
Thanks troy, you da man.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 12:26:08 AM EDT
Corrections. The barrel length and designation for the original CAR15 were 10" and XM607, NOT 10.5" and XM177. Hope this info helps.

Link Posted: 9/8/2004 10:20:58 AM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 1:57:26 PM EDT
Good info Troy and Selfishselfless. I have a couple stupid questions tho- Who made these XM deals- Bushy, Colt or both? Also, what I'd like to find out is did they have bayo lugs and if so were they for show or did the bayo fit over the moderator and lock in?
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 2:40:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 2:45:04 PM EDT by shamayim]

Originally Posted By GoGo:
Good info Troy and Selfishselfless. I have a couple stupid questions tho- Who made these XM deals- Bushy, Colt or both? Also, what I'd like to find out is did they have bayo lugs and if so were they for show or did the bayo fit over the moderator and lock in?

Colt made all the XM177s. In fact, Bushmaster didn't even make an AR15/M16 at that time. Their contract came many years later, in the 1980s. General Motors and H&R made M16A1s, during the height of the Viet Nam fracas. They were the only other suppliers, besides Colt, at that time.

The XM177 series did not have a bayo lug. I suppose that, at the height of production, someone might have grabbed some M16 sight bases with a lug off the production line, and put them on a batch of XM177s, but I've never seen one so equipped. Still, with Colt, anything is possible
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:57:20 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 4:58:13 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 5:09:04 PM EDT
Correct. Bushmaster or other NON-CONTRACTED manufacturers were unable to produce M16/AR15's until after 1977 when Stoner's patent expired. To my knowledge, all of the SMG's (per se) were manufactured by Colt, while the rifles (as previously mentioned) were manufactured by Colt, GM, and H&R.

On another note. Today (to my knowledge), the contracted M4's are being produced by FN and Bushmaster while the rifles are being produced by Colt.

Hope this info helps.

Link Posted: 9/8/2004 8:12:23 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 8:19:07 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 9:38:26 PM EDT
did any of the xm177 variants ever don a grenade launcher in vietnam?

btw, colt is sueing bm because of the m4, I believe. Says so right on their sight but I don't remember the exact words.
Link Posted: 9/8/2004 10:02:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/8/2004 10:06:47 PM EDT by Colt-653]

Colt Model 607 (about 50+/-)

Colt Model 609/XM177E1/XM177( about 2500+)

Colt Model 629/ XM177E2(3000+)

There were some Colt A1's that had there bbls cut down in the field, but they were not factory built. A lot of the Colt CAR-15 carbines and rifles were tool room guns and were never issued.

The Colt 653(M16A1 carbine 14.5" thin bbl) wasn't procured by the US military(USA,US Navy, and USAF) until 1974/75, and then only in limited numbers. It was superseded by the Colt model 723 and then the XM4 starting in 1987/88. Most of the 653's were updated with 14.5" pencil 1/7 bbls as they became available.Calling the Pre XM4 M16A2 carbine the Abu Dhabi is a misnomer as NSW and SF units had been procuring the M16A2 carbines for several years before the contract was signed......just more misinformation about Colt and Colt poducts

M16A1's were made for the US Govt by only three(3) companies

1.) Colt 1-9mil range 1965-
2.)Hydra-Matic Division of GM 3mil range 1968-circa 1971
3.) Harrington & Richardson 2mil range 1968-circa 1970

3500?.....Too many zero's...Bushmaster only supplied about 350 complete carbines. Colt was also making the 727 and 723 carbine in limited #'s but was busy supplying the A2 rifle to the USMC and US Army in 1989 when bushmaster got the contract.......The Bushmaster guns were bought long before Desert Storm I. Some of them were used in Panama by CAG.

The 727/Abu Dhabi carbine was purchased and given a NSN long before it was bought by Abu Dhabi under the XM4 prgram started in 1984. The USMC and NSW were some of the first units to receive them in 1986/87. US Army units started getting them in 1988/89 and USAF units updated certain GAU-5's around 1989/90. The first XM4 carbines were the 723's with A1 uppers with Case delectors like the Canadian C8's.

Bushmaster made about 350 M4 style carbines for NSW and SF around 1989/90. They are standard fixed handled A2 carbines with M4 barrels. Before they were released to certain units they had the Handguards, Buttstocks, Pistol grips and trigger guards replaced with Colt parts. The Bushmaster carbines were 3 position with Safe-Semi-Auto.... no Burst guns were delivered as far as I know.

The first carbines delivered had the Colt Vinyl Acetate covered Aluminum stocks on them. They are Closer in Color(Dark Grey) to the older Colt's than current Bushmaster and Colt carbines.

Link Posted: 9/8/2004 11:19:31 PM EDT
Thanx for the correction Troy.

Link Posted: 9/8/2004 11:35:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 11:51:33 AM EDT

2.)Hydra-Matic Division of General Motors 3mil range 1968-circa 1971

Man, what I wouldn't give for one of those Chevy AR's!
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 2:47:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 4:00:11 PM EDT
My Rifle in bootcamp (1979 MCRD Parris Island SC) was a m-16 made by Hydramatic. Another guy in my platoon had an H&R. I remeber him cuz at the range we had to lay the piece on safe on the ground with the saftey selactor on safe and showing. Pvt Gibbs was always fucking that up. "For Gods sake Maggot lay it with the Horsey (Colt Logo) showing!" said the PMI. "But mine" sez Gibbs"ain't got no damn Horsey!?"
Link Posted: 9/9/2004 6:58:24 PM EDT
did hydromatic put a picture of a transmission on theirs? ha ha h ah aha ha ha
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 11:26:06 AM EDT
I got an answer to my own question about the grenade launcher. In case anyone is interested. In sof mag about 2 months ago there we're a bunch of pictures of green berets. It was promoting some book that is a pictorial of the missions from 64'-72' that some of the green beret's did into cambodia or "across the fence". Something like that. 2 of the car-15's pictured clearly had a grenade launcher on them. One was noted that it is a 40 mm like the ones currently in use. I thought it was 20mm but either I'm wrong or that was a typo.
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 11:41:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Chuck:
... That's an XM177E1 in the photo to the left. If you look closely you can see the proper 20 round magazine. ...

I hope Chuck doesn't mind , but I'm taking the liberty of posting a full size of that picture so people can see what he is talking about. Chuck posted this copy to the Maryland AR-15 Shooters Site a while back..
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 4:47:48 PM EDT
Great topic, some minor corrections, FWIW:
1. XM16E1 never had a trapdoor, this came with the M16A1, but not even on the early M16A1 (I think 1972).
2. The XM16E1 had the partial fence, just the upper horizontal part to allow the spring/detent.
3. The XM177E1 had a parkerized telestock, the vinyl coated one was first seen on the E2. My good friend Bill Ricca, who forgot more about this stuff than I will ever know (check out his web
site), told me he once sold an original E1 telestock for $600.
4. The first 30 round mags were 1967 (this is right from THE BLACK RIFLE)
5. In THE BLACK RIFLE there is a pic of an XM177E2 with a grenade launcher. I do not know the date.
6. If you really want a challenge, tell me how the cleaning equiptment was carried for the early ones without the trapdoor (hint: there are 5 variations of cleaning rods over the history of the M16!!!)
Link Posted: 9/12/2004 5:50:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2004 5:54:26 PM EDT by Colt-653]
The first 30rd magazines were produced in limited #'s in 1965 as part of the Colt 601/602 and CAR15 program. They were scheduled for mass production with the introduction of the XM177E2/M16A1 series in 1967, but weren't produced in quantity till 1972 because of design and production problems. They can be seen in Colt manual CAR-15 and CMG-1 SPECIFICATIONS May 1965 on pages 7, 11, and 17.

The Vinyl Acetate covered CAR stock has always been standard on the XM177 series.....if it was phosphate covered it was done by someone other than Colt..more than likely because the finish wore off and there was no replacement in stock. The Vinyl Acetate cover was a Mil Spec requirement that was part of the 1965 XM177E1 package. The XM177E1(NSN 1005-00-930-5595) was made for the military from 1965-1967. Colt produced some unit for Domestic LE and export till 1970. Only one company produced the Vinyl Acetate finish for the stock and it had to be applied and baked on at their production facility.

The XM177E2 bbl was extended to provided more gas impluse over the XM177E1 series. The Collar/Washer(NSN 1005-087-9001/PART #XM7128) at the back of the moderator was designed to allow the XM148 grenade launcher to be attached to the carbine. The first XM177E2's that were shipped lacked the collar and had the non fully enclosed magazine fence of the earlier XM16E1's.

Occasionally/very rarely....... H&R and GM M16A1 lowers were rebuilt into XM177E2's using kits purchased from Colt, but neither H&R or GM made any XM177E2's.

Link Posted: 9/13/2004 7:55:26 PM EDT
in 1989 my Combat Camera (USAF) unit tried to get some Gun, Submachine issued to us thru the supply system (from depot) but we kept getting the go around from supply telling us we were only authorized the Rifle, Cal. 223.

the Gun, Submachine was at that time called the GAU-5. what is that nomenclature all about? i wasnt into these enough then to be concerned with the exact NSN...

i do remember getting 7 rifles in, going down to the vault in supply and function checking them with my buddy (he was the Mobility 'officer' as a TSgt and i was the Mobility 'nco' as a Sgt). he stood there enjoying the show while i played with them. He did a tour with the 173d ABN and then went in the AF and did a tour as a photographer. He said he knew id get a kick out of messing with them so he let me...

a couple of those rifles were in the 5 digit serial number range (MINE. i assigned the rifles to the different mobilty billets) was 12 thousand and change. it had green furniture, 3 prong flash hider (MAYBE it was a duck billed?) and a little delta shaped charging handle handle on it. what was up with all THAT?

any idea when it might have been built anyone and why wouldnt it have had the parts upgraded? it was in really really good condition...


Link Posted: 9/13/2004 11:03:11 PM EDT
According to biggerhammer.net, the Colt 649 was the model GAU5, while according to SAWLESALES, the Colt 630 was the model GAU5. The Colt 630 is listed to be the Air Force's version of the Colt XM177E2 without a forward assist, while the Colt 649 is listed to have a 14" barrel with not much more information.

Both 3-prong flash-suppressors and Colt 601 (delta shaped) charging handles are available through TS Inc.

TS Inc.

Hope this info helps.

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 1:34:45 PM EDT
GAU5 is strictly Air Force nomenclature. I think it is somthing like: Gun, Automatic, Unit nonexpendable, 5 (maybe model designator or somthing). I believe all Air Force firearms(even the miniguns!)use this designation system. Hey Colt-635, didn't you make some replicas of the XM177E2????? Can you post some photos?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 4:01:52 PM EDT
Here are a few pics of my reproduction GAU-5A/A.


Link Posted: 9/14/2004 5:23:32 PM EDT
if that aint beautiful, I don't know what is!!!! Niiiiice.
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 5:29:53 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 5:46:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dan0341:
Here are a few pics of my reproduction GAU-5A/A.


What kind of lower is that?
Link Posted: 9/14/2004 6:25:08 PM EDT
Thanks for the compliments. I've always liked the classic commando style. The lower is a Group Industries stainless steel registered receiver.

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:20:27 PM EDT
Here's some pics of the kit and a kit on a Colt SBR lower. I should know if I will have the shipment of original Factory Colt XM177E2 stocks in the next week, check the EE under group buy.

Link Posted: 9/14/2004 10:33:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/14/2004 10:35:34 PM EDT by FREEFALLE6]
Yep when I was in the NC Nat Guard(HHC 2-120th INF) in 89 we had a couple Hydromatic and HR M16s

Originally Posted By Ando:

2.)Hydra-Matic Division of General Motors 3mil range 1968-circa 1971

Man, what I wouldn't give for one of those Chevy AR's!

Link Posted: 9/15/2004 5:15:38 PM EDT
Colt 653, is that barrel 16" total?? Looks a little short to me.
Link Posted: 9/15/2004 6:47:39 PM EDT
I make the kits in NFA and non NFA lengths. The moderator is removable on the NFA model. The Non NFA model's bbl measures 16.1 with the permanently attached moderator.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 9:08:05 AM EDT
What are the prices?? Also, will the buttstocks have the original buffers?? Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/18/2004 12:00:06 PM EDT
Some of the H&R, GM, and early Colt M16A1 lowers have been used to build new M16a2s by the Army as well. My unit at Bragg had a bunch.
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 3:18:57 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/19/2004 3:19:37 PM EDT by shamayim]

Originally Posted By Stottman:
Some of the H&R, GM, and early Colt M16A1 lowers have been used to build new M16a2s by the Army as well. My unit at Bragg had a bunch.

We know; and the best part is that the takeoff A1 pieces aren't bring scrapped any more.

They're being sold off in usable condition, and us early M16 nuts are using 'em to build up M16 and M16A1 clones
Link Posted: 9/19/2004 8:46:34 PM EDT
I have New Factory Colt XM177E2 stocks listed in the EE for those that are interested.

Link Posted: 9/20/2004 2:38:09 PM EDT
Not to beat a dead horse, but I find the vinyl coated buttstock thing interesting. I checked THE BLACK RIFLE. On page 232 caption 228 says " the early telestock was not vinyl coated". If you look closly at the photos you can see all the E2s have a shiny vinyl coated stock. Most of the E1s you can fairly easily make out that the telestocks are NOT vinyl coated, so I think early parkerized stocks did exist. How many were issued I can't say. Also, photos in "SMALL ARMS REVIEW" M16 guide tend to back this up. The weapons in both sources all look pristine and unissued, so I don't think the stocks were refinished.
Link Posted: 9/21/2004 4:17:32 PM EDT
Since The Black Rifle is mentioned, I have a question concerning the contents. It's very clear that The Black Rifle considers the Model 602 to be the XM16E1 with a forward assist. However, every other reference I can find, including The Black Rifle II and Edward C. Ezell's own Small Arms of the World lists the Model 603 as the XM16E1 and M16A1 and that the Model 602 was an AR-15 without a forward assist. So is this an error in The Black Rifle?
Link Posted: 9/22/2004 10:47:47 AM EDT
In 1978 I was issued an XM177E2 when I was in C 2nd Bn (Ranger) 75th Inf. It had a 10 inch barrel and the sound moderator, vinyl covered aluminium collapsable stock, no bayonet lug. Made by Hydramatic Corp.(GM)

If memory serves me (and it just might not) it was serial number 908202.


We the Willing, Led by the Unknowing, Do what is Necessary, For the Ungrateful.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:51:50 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 3:52:31 PM EDT by Epeeman]
No one ever responded to the cleaning kit trivia question?

Before the M16 had a buttstock trapdoor, wasn't the issue cleaning kit carried in a pouch, that clipped onto the pistol belt/Alice setup?

In my 1969 M16A1 Army "comic book" manual, they refer to the "new" cleaning rod having five shaft pieces, instead of four. The overall length is the same but having it unscrew into five sections allows it to take up less space when stored in the buttstock.

I love that comic book; my girlfriend thinks I'm nuts but I read it practically every day!

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 5:33:03 PM EDT
There are 5 variations of the cleaning rod. The first two were three sections with one of the sections having a knurled end (the threads were different). They were carried in a slot in the bipod case. The third version of the cleaning rod had the familiar pivot handle we see today(for use with the chamber brush) but there are still three sections and it is carried in the second version of the bipod case. The "t" shaped piece won't fit into the slot in the closed "in line" position so had to be fitted into the case in the "t" or open position. The forth and fifth versions are the rods with the short sections to fit into the buttstock the only diffrence being the direction of the hole in the "t" handle.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:12:51 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:34:03 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Colt-653:
I make the kits in NFA and non NFA lengths. The moderator is removable on the NFA model. The Non NFA model's bbl measures 16.1 with the permanently attached moderator.

Hey, could you give us a price quote on those, or a link to more info?

I've got a thing for the XM177 type rifles. Always thought it was a neat looking rifle.

Dan0341's rifle is damned cool looking as well.

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:42:00 AM EDT
Did the XM177E2 use the straight "slip ring" at the rear end of the handguards, or did it use the newer "delta ring?" I, too, am accumulating parts for an XM177E2 build and want to get it right. Thanks.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:35:15 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/13/2004 8:36:19 AM EDT by Colt-653]
Kit's are $1195....I make limited #'s of them based on demand and parts avialablity.

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:39:11 PM EDT
The XM177E2 used the straight slip ring. The canted delta ring didn't appear until the M16A2 came along.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:47:18 PM EDT
Good topic, tagged.
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