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Posted: 8/15/2004 7:41:00 PM EST
hi, was wonderin if anyone could identify this upper i saw at the gunshow. i dont have any pics of it but i remember the markings clearly on it.

its an A2 upper with a bird cage flash suppressor without a bayonet holder/lug. one of the 2 markings on it where on the barrel right infront of the forward iron sight. it read "DCS" with a "1-9" right under it. the other marking was after the aft iron sight on the handle and it read, "F" with a funny "keyhole symbol" right next to it. i figured the 1-9 was the barrel twist ratio.

im very new to these types of guns and have no idea what the letters meant. the whole upper was of very good quality. i looked at uppers on complete colts and bushys and it seemed to be of equal or better quality.

the upper in question had the bolt with it too. it too looked like very good quality.

I asked the dealer what kind of upper it was and he said it was manufactered by FN. the same company contracted to make our militarys rifles... but thats BS because itd be illegal for FN to sell to the civilian market, but if it is FN how did he get a hold of a whole upper?

thx, i appreciate your time and help!
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:06:51 PM EST
oh ya, it was a M4 profile with the bumps in the barrel. 16" barrel.

also i remember seein a thread on here that had what all the different markings mean, but i dont know where i found it at. anyone know?

thx
Link Posted: 8/15/2004 8:23:33 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/15/2004 8:24:25 PM EST by Aussie_E]
The DCS I can't help you with. But the F and Keyhole are the forging Codes for FNMI receivers manufactured from a Cerro Forge forging. I know some one who just bought a FN upper from a gun-smith. I know the smith personally and I don't think he would have lied about it being FN. I'll take a look at the rifle and see what markings it has. The one thing I noticed last weekend when we took the rifle out was that the windage knob was numbered, which I thought was way cool. The guy at the show was probably telling you the truth. FN cannot sell lowers or complete rifles maybe, but I think there are some uppers out there. BTY the info came from Black Rifle II, which I have found to be accurate and well researched.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 10:05:45 AM EST
There are some FN made parts out there, apparently. They wouldn't have come directly from FN, but might well have been disposed of as surplus by a disposal officer at a service base. Since the Army switched over to the flat top M4 style awhile back, an A2 type upper would not longer be kept in repair stock.

The trick in these matters is to stay aware that there are unscrupulous dealers who are passing off commercially made products as "FN" bewcause the builder once supplied springs, or pins, or something, to FN. If it is a major piece, like a barrel, or an upper reciever, it will have FN production markings on it, and A2 barrels and uppers have indeed been showing up.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:10:39 PM EST
so does anyone know what the DCS 1-9 on the barrel means?
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:32:16 PM EST
Upper look like this?



Wpnsman, a member here, seems to think that these are FN upper receivers. He states that he works on FN M16s and the uppers are marked like this. This is a receiver I have in my safe right now.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:52:54 PM EST
might wanna look here

"FN® contract upper"
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 4:53:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 4:54:50 PM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By ironoxbows:
might wanna look here

"FN® contract upper"



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Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:01:44 PM EST
ya, i cant get your link either...

mongo, the upper did look like that, except i remember distinctly that the keyhole symbol was to the right of the F. not under it.
Link Posted: 8/16/2004 6:20:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 8/16/2004 6:21:42 PM EST by GreenPic]
http://www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/030711-F-7685H-104.jpg

got this image out of another thread. the AR15.COM ACTION PHOTO THREAD. the pic was provided by _DR on the second page of the thread.

the reason im showin this is because i noticed that that barrel is the same exact one i saw at the gun show on the upper i had in question. i think that this photo proves that it was a GI issue FN upper...

ill have to find that vender again lol

edited to get the image to work.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 3:07:09 AM EST
GreenPic,

While the picture you posted shows the general appearence of an M4 profile barrel, it does not prove that the complete upper receiver you examined at the gunshow was made by FN. If the upper receiver itself was marked as you described and as posted by Mongo001 then the upper is a FN product. I haven't encountered barrel markings as you posted but the 1/9 and the fact that it does not have a bayonet lug make it a strictly commercial piece.

BTW Mongo001, and I'm not trying to sound like a smartass so please don't take it that way. But, I don't "seems to think that these are FN upper Receivers", I know. This is due to the fact that at work I routinely remove them from their factory packaging which is clearly marked with the Cage (Commercial and Government Entity) Code of 3S679 which belongs to FN. From some of the threads being posted here recently, it does seem like there is a rash of FN produced A2 parts and bolts surfacing on the open market lately.

Wpns Man
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 4:03:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 8/17/2004 4:06:15 AM EST by mongo001]

Originally Posted By WpnsMan:
BTW Mongo001, and I'm not trying to sound like a smartass so please don't take it that way. But, I don't "seems to think that these are FN upper Receivers", I know. This is due to the fact that at work I routinely remove them from their factory packaging which is clearly marked with the Cage (Commercial and Government Entity) Code of 3S679 which belongs to FN. From some of the threads being posted here recently, it does seem like there is a rash of FN produced A2 parts and bolts surfacing on the open market lately.

Wpns Man



I worded it that way so that I wouldn't put you on the spot as being considered an expert on this issue (althought IMO you are, as I can vouch for alot of the comments you make and references you make to the .mil stock system, etc.), and I was hoping to bait you into commenting on the upper in question.

It seems that no matter how much knowledge a person has on a subject, there is always some critic in the forum that doubts anything posted. So I tried to put some PC in whatever I post so as not to wrongly "accuse" someone of knowing something that they may or may not know.

You're correct about the FN parts reaching the civilian market. In the last couple of years, I've had two "F" marked receivers, one FNMI MP 5.56 NATO 1/7 20" gov't profile barrel, and a couple of MPF bolts. They weren't sold by FN to civilians obviously, but they somehow "leaked" out of the government stock system.

Everything's cool.
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 7:19:02 AM EST
mongo001,

Glad you took my comment the way it was intended, and thanks for the compliment. Looks like you got me hook, line and sinker with your bait too.......... Ha.

I see alot of threads where people are repeating bad info, or who have bought into (literally), the B.S. some of these parts dealers are selling. I try not to reply to alot of them so as not to sound like a broken record, or a know it all A-hole. But sometimes I can't help myself when the B.S. gets out of hand or as in this case, someone is about to make a potentially bad purchase.

I really don't like the term "Expert" either, as most self-proclaimed "experts" usually aren't. I try to only offer up my "experience" while trying not to sound to preachy, in hopes that people can make up their own minds. And, the subject as to how or why these parts have become available has been discussed to nauseum.

Wpns Man
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 2:14:31 PM EST
First off, let me say that ANYTHING is possible in regards to FN mil parts, I have worked/talked to too may S-4/G-4 types, and know that damn near anything can be "demilled" out of the system if the price is right Now that is not right, but it IS the way the world works sometimes. Also, I would like to ask if the markings you saw were perhaps DSC 1-9, which is the marking on a Double Star Corporation rifle out of KY. I have one that is chrome lined and it says DSC CHROMED 1-9 and it is also the M4 profile. Hope this helps!
Link Posted: 8/17/2004 2:19:12 PM EST

Originally Posted By GreenPic:
so does anyone know what the DCS 1-9 on the barrel means?



1:9 twist...

M4s are 1:7...

I'm guessing this is a 16" 'civvie legal' barrel, attached to the from-whereever FNMI upper...
Link Posted: 8/19/2004 12:52:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By GreenPic:
www.af.mil/media/photodb/photos/030711-F-7685H-104.jpg

got this image out of another thread. the AR15.COM ACTION PHOTO THREAD. the pic was provided by _DR on the second page of the thread.

the reason im showin this is because i noticed that that barrel is the same exact one i saw at the gun show on the upper i had in question. i think that this photo proves that it was a GI issue FN upper...

ill have to find that vender again lol

edited to get the image to work.



The rifle in that pic is an M4. FN does not make M4s. Only Colt makes M4s for the military. FN only makes M16s. If anyone has seen an FN m16 lower with an M4 upper, then it was rebarreled that way.
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