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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/24/2005 3:20:20 PM EDT
I have a RRA standard trigger set on a double-star lower that I built.

I've followed the instructions as best I could from the website posted on here many times:

www.sargenthome.com/15_Minute_AR_Trigger_Job.htm

I cut the hammer spring according to instructions, I bent the trigger spring to the angle described according to the instructions and I took some metal polish and cleaning rag to polish the sear surfaces.

What I can tell so far is that it decreased the length of pull in the trigger by a lot, but the tension needed to break the trigger (release the hammer) is just as heavy as before (which is pretty heavy).

Am I not polishing the sear surfaces right? Would it make the rifle unreliable to cut the longer leg of the hammer spring a small amount to decrease the tension on the hammer?

any suggestions would help, thanks.

-mark
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:46:17 PM EDT
Just my opinion.

Cutting up springs and a quick polishing is bad news.

I think this kind of back yard gun smithing is done in poor judgment.
The fact is most great shooters can and do shoot well with stock triggers.
ones need to mess with stuff causes things to fail.

If you feel there is no difference then buy new springs to return the group to normal. Then become proficient with it the way it was built.

If you must have a lighter pull then step up to the plate and buy a new T/G. there are many quality ones available.
I am sorry if I have offended you with my remarks this was not my intention.
I just feel that altering the T/G in this way causes nothing but problems and FTF.
Resulting in possible harm to the weapon and people. There are appropriate ways to achieve what you are looking for. They just cost money. What are you saving? Money or injury? These 15 minute trigger jobs are reckless and the people who promote them are silly and cheap.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:52:05 PM EDT
You possibly have bad sear engagements... The surface of the trigger/hammer engagements could have a burr or just need to be slightly stoned... Or you may have done the procedure incorrectly...

I DO NOT RECOMEND THAT YOU DO ANY STONING TO THE SEAR... That job is for a qualified person... Most trigger/hammer surfaces are only "surface hardened" and you can possibly cause major damage to the FCG...

You are playing with fire when altering the FCG of any weapon, and with doing so, you might get burnt, or even worse, burn someone else... PLEASE be careful and don't cause a catastrophe with your experimenting...
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:54:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rollyman:
Just my opinion.

Cutting up springs and a quick polishing is bad news.

I think this kind of back yard gun smithing is done in poor judgment.
The fact is most great shooters can and do shoot well with stock triggers.
ones need to mess with stuff causes things to fail.

If you feel there is no difference then buy new springs to return the group to normal. Then become proficient with it the way it was built.

If you must have a lighter pull then step up to the plate and buy a new T/G. there are many quality ones available.
I am sorry if I have offended you with my remarks this was not my intention.
I just feel that altering the T/G in this way causes nothing but problems and FTF.
Resulting in possible harm to the weapon and people. There are appropriate ways to achieve what you are looking for. They just cost money. What are you saving? Money or injury? These 15 minute trigger jobs are reckless and the people who promote them are silly and cheap.



That is one opinion I highly respect...
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 3:55:58 PM EDT
+1 for leaving it alone

try the cheap jp hammer springs or save up for a real trigger.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:03:09 PM EDT
The JP service springs and LIGHT stoning to remove any burrs should yield a very respectable trigger. If you don't get carried away with stoning you'll be fine, no need for paranoia.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:12:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
The JP service springs and LIGHT stoning to remove any burrs should yield a very respectable trigger. If you don't get carried away with stoning you'll be fine, no need for paranoia.



Paranoia no.
Common sense yes.


Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:18:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Rollyman:

Originally Posted By bigkracka:
The JP service springs and LIGHT stoning to remove any burrs should yield a very respectable trigger. If you don't get carried away with stoning you'll be fine, no need for paranoia.



Paranoia no.
Common sense yes.





+1
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:32:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2005 4:40:13 PM EDT by MauserMark]
thanks.

what is stoning?

Rollyman, I know where you're coming from, it took me a long time to even consider working on it. I simply hate gunsmiths/shops with a passion, so I decided to try it myself. I wouldn't have messed with a stock trigger group in a stock out of the box rifle, only considered it with this one because it was my first build and I wanted to mess around with it.

I had a stock trigger group on my first bushmaster and I had no problem with it. I built this lower and installed the trigger group, it is in correctly, I've had someone else look at it, and compared it with my other stock ARs. The trigger pull is just a little heavier that's all.


btw where can I get jp springs?

and I do have a backup pair of stock springs if I want to switch back.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:43:27 PM EDT
I have done the 15min Tr job to 4 J&T kits and all have performed great 4-41/2 lb pull after . However I don't pollish anything , just do the spring work . They all shoot great even when "ahem" bumpfired . Maby I've just been lucky .
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 4:56:03 PM EDT
What is stoning you ask? Its a way of "super" polishing the surfaces of the sear... Try looking at Brownells, part # 080-721-621... And while your at it, part # 747-094-500 is a good tool to have too...
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:01:42 PM EDT
Dont cut your springs or bend them. Dont mess up your sear. I installed a set of ISMI chrome silicon hammer/trigger springs and am very happy with the results. This lightened the pull considerably and did not cause any problems. I have had no light hits or hammer follow. Best $14 I have spent
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:03:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
thanks.

what is stoning?

Rollyman, I know where you're coming from, it took me a long time to even consider working on it. I simply hate gunsmiths/shops with a passion, so I decided to try it myself. I wouldn't have messed with a stock trigger group in a stock out of the box rifle, only considered it with this one because it was my first build and I wanted to mess around with it.

I had a stock trigger group on my first bushmaster and I had no problem with it. I built this lower and installed the trigger group, it is in correctly, I've had someone else look at it, and compared it with my other stock ARs. The trigger pull is just a little heavier that's all.


btw where can I get jp springs?

and I do have a backup pair of stock springs if I want to switch back.



I think you can find JP springs with most of the ARFCOM dealers just click on the icons above. The industry forum has links to many of them.

I would give the trigger group a overdose of lube and get started on pulling that trigger a lot. as with everything a break in period will help.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:04:08 PM EDT
thanks, I found the jp springs, guess I'll try those first.

-mark
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:04:17 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIGNAL4L:
Dont cut your springs or bend them. Dont mess up your sear. I installed a set of ISMI chrome silicon hammer/trigger springs and am very happy with the results. This lightened the pull considerably and did not cause any problems. I have had no light hits or hammer follow. Best $14 I have spent



We tried to warn him but he seems determined...
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:09:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By theshootersden:

Originally Posted By SIGNAL4L:
Dont cut your springs or bend them. Dont mess up your sear. I installed a set of ISMI chrome silicon hammer/trigger springs and am very happy with the results. This lightened the pull considerably and did not cause any problems. I have had no light hits or hammer follow. Best $14 I have spent



We tried to warn him but he seems determined...



I'm not going to touch the sear, just used metal polish, not sure that did anything.

only from the get-go wanted to manipulate the springs, as I have a back-up replacement set.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:31:25 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SIGNAL4L:
I installed a set of ISMI chrome silicon hammer/trigger springs and am very happy with the results. This lightened the pull considerably and did not cause any problems. I have had no light hits or hammer follow. Best $14 I have spent

I am currently waiting on a set myself. Curious to see how they stack up against the JP set.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 5:31:36 PM EDT
The springs should do it... After you fire the thing 500-1000 times, the trigger should improve tremendously... Good luck
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:53:58 AM EDT
Hi Mauser Mark,

My company is getting ready to market a trigger system next year that keeps the stock AR trigger parts except for our custom parts. We have hundreds of hours and time in testing so far and we are almost done. Currently we have our product in 6 makes of AR-15 and have live fired over 5000 rounds of ammo with 10 manufactures types with out problem so far. We still have some more live fire testing before we market the product. Needless to say we have went through at least 20 test set of mods before getting things right. So far we have been able to take stock AR-15's that often have trigger pull weight in the high 8lb+ and bring that to about 4lbs and in some guns a little less depending how the stock trigger group was finished at the factory. The nice part is that it will still fire crimped primer (mil type) ammo with out problem. The $150+ after market triggers are very nice but, some folks do not have that much money and many of them will not fire mil type ammo all the time. Except for the Chip Mc drop ins the other match triggers can be a real bear to install and adjust right for the average guy.


I have found that with out the proper jigs/fixtures, stoning the AR-15 triggers leads to nothing but trouble for most folks. That is why we came up with this kit. It can be installed in about 5 to 10 mins and is easy for anyone with even minor mech ability to do. If our parts cost do not change we will be selling these for $29.00 shipped. I am thinking about calling it the Poor Mans AR Trigger Upgrade.

I have a deal for you MauserMark. You are the perfect canidate for testing our product. I will send you one kit free of cost as long as you give me a report on how it worked and if you like it. I also need to know if you would have any problems with the install. In the report I will need to know what kind and amount of ammo you tested with. I will also send a copy of the non-disclosure agreement . All that is about is that you will not steal our ideas and are only using this for R&D tsesting and personal use as we are in the process of a patenet on this product. If this is OK with you, email me at my website and I will get the trigger kit out to you with in 2 weeks. I would need a report via phone,letter or email with in 2 weeks of you getting the trigger kit.

www.elkmontarms.com
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 9:45:54 AM EDT
I have found that the best way to Improve your trigger is to shoot a lot. It smooths it out and (Surprise) Makes you a better shooter thru practice.................
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:14:04 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 1:17:19 PM EDT by MauserMark]
ok, now I'm confused, reading the ARfcom manuals I found this pic for installation of the hammer:



why in the pic on the left are the two legs of the springs pointing in opposite directions?

the leg that I cut according the instructions would be the leg bent towards the back of the receiver in the picture, maybe that was my mistake. I had no idea which leg was considered the "right" leg, because I didn't see where the frame of reference for the front or back of the spring was.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:25:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 1:26:19 PM EDT by r4nger]
Mauser...did ya read the post two above yours by elkmontarms? He is offering you a free trigger to test, why bother with the 15minute trigger job when you could have a free and from the sound of it a sweet trigger.

elkmontarms if mauser doesn't want to take you up on your offer I certainly will. I'd love to do some beta testing, errr I mean testing for ya(hehe the computer nerd coming out in me).

Sounds like ya got a great idea/product at a very fair price. Let me know if you'd like any help testing anything.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:37:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By elkmontarms:
Hi Mauser Mark,

My company is getting ready to market a trigger system next year that keeps the stock AR trigger parts except for our custom parts. We have hundreds of hours and time in testing so far and we are almost done. Currently we have our product in 6 makes of AR-15 and have live fired over 5000 rounds of ammo with 10 manufactures types with out problem so far. We still have some more live fire testing before we market the product. Needless to say we have went through at least 20 test set of mods before getting things right. So far we have been able to take stock AR-15's that often have trigger pull weight in the high 8lb+ and bring that to about 4lbs and in some guns a little less depending how the stock trigger group was finished at the factory. The nice part is that it will still fire crimped primer (mil type) ammo with out problem. The $150+ after market triggers are very nice but, some folks do not have that much money and many of them will not fire mil type ammo all the time. Except for the Chip Mc drop ins the other match triggers can be a real bear to install and adjust right for the average guy.


I have found that with out the proper jigs/fixtures, stoning the AR-15 triggers leads to nothing but trouble for most folks. That is why we came up with this kit. It can be installed in about 5 to 10 mins and is easy for anyone with even minor mech ability to do. If our parts cost do not change we will be selling these for $29.00 shipped. I am thinking about calling it the Poor Mans AR Trigger Upgrade.

I have a deal for you MauserMark. You are the perfect canidate for testing our product. I will send you one kit free of cost as long as you give me a report on how it worked and if you like it. I also need to know if you would have any problems with the install. In the report I will need to know what kind and amount of ammo you tested with. I will also send a copy of the non-disclosure agreement . All that is about is that you will not steal our ideas and are only using this for R&D tsesting and personal use as we are in the process of a patenet on this product. If this is OK with you, email me at my website and I will get the trigger kit out to you with in 2 weeks. I would need a report via phone,letter or email with in 2 weeks of you getting the trigger kit.

www.elkmontarms.com



im sent
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 1:48:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:

Originally Posted By elkmontarms:
Hi Mauser Mark,

My company is getting ready to market a trigger system next year that keeps the stock AR trigger parts except for our custom parts. We have hundreds of hours and time in testing so far and we are almost done. Currently we have our product in 6 makes of AR-15 and have live fired over 5000 rounds of ammo with 10 manufactures types with out problem so far. We still have some more live fire testing before we market the product. Needless to say we have went through at least 20 test set of mods before getting things right. So far we have been able to take stock AR-15's that often have trigger pull weight in the high 8lb+ and bring that to about 4lbs and in some guns a little less depending how the stock trigger group was finished at the factory. The nice part is that it will still fire crimped primer (mil type) ammo with out problem. The $150+ after market triggers are very nice but, some folks do not have that much money and many of them will not fire mil type ammo all the time. Except for the Chip Mc drop ins the other match triggers can be a real bear to install and adjust right for the average guy.


I have found that with out the proper jigs/fixtures, stoning the AR-15 triggers leads to nothing but trouble for most folks. That is why we came up with this kit. It can be installed in about 5 to 10 mins and is easy for anyone with even minor mech ability to do. If our parts cost do not change we will be selling these for $29.00 shipped. I am thinking about calling it the Poor Mans AR Trigger Upgrade.

I have a deal for you MauserMark. You are the perfect canidate for testing our product. I will send you one kit free of cost as long as you give me a report on how it worked and if you like it. I also need to know if you would have any problems with the install. In the report I will need to know what kind and amount of ammo you tested with. I will also send a copy of the non-disclosure agreement . All that is about is that you will not steal our ideas and are only using this for R&D tsesting and personal use as we are in the process of a patenet on this product. If this is OK with you, email me at my website and I will get the trigger kit out to you with in 2 weeks. I would need a report via phone,letter or email with in 2 weeks of you getting the trigger kit.

www.elkmontarms.com



im sent



I voluneer my AR also :)
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:08:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
ok, now I'm confused, reading the ARfcom manuals I found this pic for installation of the hammer:

www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/hammer.gif

why in the pic on the left are the two legs of the springs pointing in opposite directions?

the leg that I cut according the instructions would be the leg bent towards the back of the receiver in the picture, maybe that was my mistake. I had no idea which leg was considered the "right" leg, because I didn't see where the frame of reference for the front or back of the spring was.



Because there is no tension on the spring.

Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:28:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 2:28:52 PM EDT by MauserMark]

Originally Posted By out-a-ammo:

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
ok, now I'm confused, reading the ARfcom manuals I found this pic for installation of the hammer:

www.ar15.com/content/guides/assembly/lower/hammer.gif

why in the pic on the left are the two legs of the springs pointing in opposite directions?

the leg that I cut according the instructions would be the leg bent towards the back of the receiver in the picture, maybe that was my mistake. I had no idea which leg was considered the "right" leg, because I didn't see where the frame of reference for the front or back of the spring was.



Because there is no tension on the spring.




there is no tension on the spring in the pic where the two legs point in opposite directions? I'm confused. If you put it on the hammer both legs point downward towards 7 o'clock, wondering why in the pic on the left one points at about 7 and the other at maybe 5.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:29:34 PM EDT
another question, I noticed if you turn the spring around there is a lot less tension on the hammer, would this be dangerous and cause light strikes?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:21:09 PM EDT
why in the pic on the left are the two legs of the springs pointing in opposite directions?

That is a diagram of the M16A2's hammer with burst racheting device, and that spring is not the same as the AR-15 spring. The AR-15 spring is the same as the M16 and M16A1 spring.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 4:11:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/25/2005 4:11:44 PM EDT by Not_A_Llama]

Originally Posted By MauserMark:
another question, I noticed if you turn the spring around there is a lot less tension on the hammer, would this be dangerous and cause light strikes?


It's problematic. The first time I did the 15 minute job, I thought it was working REALLY REALLY GREAT. Then I kept getting FTFs with my ammo, and figured out why.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 1:30:49 AM EDT
Thanks for the intrest folks. I got the email from Mauser Mark and he is going to take me up on the free deal. I had a couple other folks email me and I made them a reduced cost deal for testing. I have about all the field testers I need right now, thanks again for all the help. We are still in the prototype testing phase so there may be some more work needed? We should know if this works out well in a month or two. I really want to make sure there is no problems what so ever before I market a product with my name on it. We have one gun that has about 1000 rnds of testing and we are going to try to test at least another 1000 or 1500 rnds before we are finished. Before we market it we should have tested it in well over 20 guns of diff makes and ran over 10K+ rounds of ammo There is to much crap ot there that people just throw on the market and find out 6 months later it has problems. If all goes well we plan on marketing it around $29.99 to $35.00 shipped. On average we have been getting triger pulls around 4lbs some times less. It is a very nice upgrade for the money.

Just a simple note to help you out in the future. I see a few post and question from guys that have problems with putting on the trigger springs. Unless you are building a new AR always replace the springs one for one with the stock ones. Or make a quick scetch of how it was. The Mil-Spec drawings and pictures for this suck. That way you really can't get them screwed up.

Thanks again guys for all the help and I am looking forward to offering the kit to you all ASAP when we are ready. There really seems to be a need for this upgrade at a fair price for average AR-15 owners.
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