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Posted: 1/26/2006 1:40:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/10/2006 12:34:24 PM EST by bwiese]
We Californians appreciate those manufacturers and FFL vendors who've supported us in
acquiring legal 'off-list' lowers. Large quantities of Stags, Fultons, DoubleStars, Lauers,
DSA, and others all have happily made it into California.

BTW, I am the author of the California AR/AK FAQ on Calguns.Net:
www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm

More and more lowers are coming into CA, but the cutoff (declaration as assault weapon) is
likely approaching fairly soon. Some estimates of the number of legal off-list lowers making
it into CA are as high as 11,000 or more as of 3/10/06 - and the demand still continues. The
cutoff could be a few days or a couple of weeks. No one knows for sure, though we are pretty
certain this will happen.

It'd be nice that all Californians who want off-list lowers can get them purchased in time,
so attention to detail and fast shipping upon order completion is really appreciated - and
I'm sure CA folks will pay extra for this & express shipping to have a trouble-free deal.

Briefly, to keep things legal, you should:

  • ship only 'off-list' lowers to CA FFL dealers. These aren't on Calif's Kasler list
    of guns (lowers) specifically banned by make AND model. If it's not named it's legal to
    possess as a bare lower. [This is because the 2001 CA Supreme Ct decision, Harrott
    v Kings County
    , says that to be a banned-by-name assault weapon, the name must be
    specifically listed by the government; furthermore, a trial court or DA cannot make a
    determination if a specific make/model is an assault weapon without consulting the list
    of banned guns.]

    This list of names of banned guns is at ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/aw.pdf and also at
    Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.10-979.11


  • best to keep things easy and ship just bare lowers; that way you avoid configuration
    issues. CA customers will deal with the right parts combinations afterwards. Ideally it's
    best to ship without pistol grip and/or telestock, folding stock or thumbhole stock mounted.
    (Other lower parts are fine - fire control, pins, etc.) A bare off-list lower is still a CA
    assault weapon if it has an open magwell AND a pistol grip/and or telestock mounted so
    we really want to stay away from that.


  • if the off-list lower must for some reason be shipped with pistol grip or telestock,a
    NONDETACHABLE MAGAZINE MUST BE AFFIXED. This means it must take 'tools
    and time' to remove/replace mag in order to be legal and not a CA assault weapon.
    The 'Sporting Conversions' fixed mag kit, with the screw whaled down on, and with
    perhaps a bit of green ThreadLok used, will serve fine. If you are unsure about this,
    just ship the lower without telestock and pistol grip (it may be a good ideal to ship
    those separately, not in the same box).




Thanks for your support.



Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA


Link Posted: 1/26/2006 12:52:36 AM EST
btt- mods, can we sticky this for the next week or two? it'll help some folks + vendors.

Thanks...
Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 10:23:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/31/2006 6:43:39 AM EST by Lon_Moer]
Bumpin' to keep this on top

Also, I am looking for a couple of 7.62/AKM receivers. Please post any leads or PM/email me with any info. Thank You Harlan!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 1:58:22 PM EST
.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 2:09:37 PM EST
Hey there bweise, you've done a great job at calguns & it's good to see you here.
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 2:49:04 PM EST
NOOOO!!! shut him down NOW! Cant you see all those EVIL guns going into CA are just waiting to start KILLING RAMPAGES!!!!!!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 3:53:24 PM EST
I'm just trying to get more 223 rifles into CA to create more demand & thus more supply of quality bulk 223 ammo :)

I want 1K boxes of Fed XM193 at every gunshop for $175 or less :)

(One can dream, huh?)


Bill Wiese
San Jose

Link Posted: 1/26/2006 5:03:37 PM EST
CA already has more "assault weapons" than any other state.
Probably more 50BMG rifles too

They ban it, we buy it.

Keep up the good work Mr Wiese!
Link Posted: 1/26/2006 7:30:28 PM EST
Request a temporary sticky for those poor subjects of the People's Republic of California.

Link Posted: 1/28/2006 10:51:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By seahorse:
Hey there bweise, you've done a great job at calguns & it's good to see you here.



+1

And thank you for writing the excellent FAQ over on calguns.
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 12:11:09 AM EST
great work on calguns! a bump for CA!
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 5:38:21 AM EST
I'll be happy to help any way I can but, I'm not up to speed on California legal mubo-jumbo nor have I any interest in becomg so.

Could you please state in plain English what you need and how to get it to our bro's in the occupied territories?

To wit; are Ameetec lowers (real fine merchandise IMHO) on the "damned" list? And if not, how many crates of bare lowers do you need?
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:34:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 10:54:44 AM EST by bwiese]

Originally Posted By SailorDude:
I'll be happy to help any way I can but, I'm not up to speed on California legal mubo-jumbo...

Could you please state in plain English what you need and how to get it to our bro's in the occupied territories?



I wrote a detailed FAQ on Calguns.net. (www.calguns.net/a_california_arak.htm) but I will summarize for you...


  • Only some AR-type (and AK-type) lowers are banned as assault weapons in CA. Only those specifically named by make AND model (together) in Calif Code of Regulation sec 979.11 (which is the so-called 'Kasler list') are banned. Those that are NOT listed by make and model are legal to possess as bare receivers or fixed-10-rd-magazine rifles. These legal lowers are known as 'off-list' lowers. The June 2001 CA Supreme Court decision, Harrott v Kings County, requires the Calif DOJ to list specific makes/models before they are considered illegal/banned. Trial courts, DAs, etc cannot make this determination of AW status, either - either they're listed or they're not.

  • For our purposes of discussion, lowers shipped into CA should NOT have pistol grips or telestocks/folding stocks or thumbhole stocks attached, nor uppers w/flash hiders attached. (They could be, if fixed nondetachable 10 round or less mag were first affixed - but let the folks inside CA can worry about those compliance details. Once we have the lowers in-state we know what to do to stay legal.)

  • Thousands upon thousands of lowers are already in CA and the huge demand is still there.

  • It appears CA DOJ phone staff are giving misinformation to out-of-state vendors/mfgrs that this is illegal - they do not also tell out-of-staters about the key Harrott CA Supreme Ct decision. But DOJ agents acknowledge to CA FFLs that this is legal and walk out of gunshops here leaving boxes of hundreds of lowers to be sold once they verify they are not 'listed' in CCR 979.11. They're trying to stem the outside flow by interfering in interstate commerce of legal items because this is politically embarassing here to their bosses (AG).

  • Time is pressing (2 days? 2-3 weeks?) as many off-list brands may be named as assault weapons and thus these brands will not be allowed to be purchased.

  • FFLs outside CA are isolated from CA AW legalities as these off-list lowers are NOT assault weapons and our penal code specifies 'within this state'...

    12280. (a)(1) Any person who, within this state, manufactures or causes to be manufactured, distributes, transports, or imports into the state, keeps for sale, or offers or exposes for sale, or who gives or lends any assault weapon or any 50BMG rifle, except as provided by this chapter, is guilty of a felony....

  • People in CA right now just want to build legal fixed-mag rifles. Possible DOJ action in near future likely allows fixed mags to be removed.

  • This is a once-in-a-lifetime thing that will never be repeated as new laws will likely cure/fill-in this legislatively-unaddressed situation. We had thought we were done for in 2000.

  • People will pay added markup for speed - lowers should be shipped to an intermediate vendor, such as yourself, via express overnight, and shipped in turn to CA FFLs as express overnight, so folks can begin legal paperwork/4473 stuff ASAP. (Once the lowers are 'DROSed'/4473'd they are yours even if still stuck in 10day waiting period.)

  • People will pay extra for a nominal 're-stocking fee' if somehow lowers are paid for but get named as AWs in the interim between shipment and filling out 4473. The ability for lowers to be returned for credit minus restocking fees is helpful to FFLs too, besides those buying from out of state vendor and just using local CA FFL as transfer agent.





... are Ameetec lowers (real fine merchandise IMHO) on the "damned" list?


I love the attitude, thank you.

The 'list' of banned guns/lowers is at ag.ca.gov/firearms/regs/aw.pdf

If the brand/model is not listed (don't be cute with words like "The...", ", Inc.", etc or hyphenation) it's good to go.

So Ameetecs, Stags (I just got 4), Fultons, DSAs, etc. are cool. Bushmaster, Colt, DPMS versions, etc. are not since they are listed. However if these latter companies come out with new models - let's say Colt comes out with the new "Bullet Squirter 15" - then it's good.

But for now stick to brands off the list as there are plenty. We'd love to have lots of Ameetecs here, as well as Gunsmokes, Lauers, Fultons, etc. and more Stags (though we seem to have depleted Stag of inventory for awhile).

The AR lower businesss has been re-shaped by California events, and many lowers from many vendors are making it into CA. We want to make it as easy as possible because minor glitches in flow consume valuable time, and we want everyone who wants a legal off-list lower to be able to get one or more.

You can visit http://www,Calguns.net in the 'Gun rights, legal, political forum' and go to the '223 Self-loading Rifle' forum to make contact with end-users who have FFLs, and some FFL dealers who are looking for lowers.

I'm hoping we can get over 10,000 legal off-list lowers into CA before the 'List' gets updated.
There's likely around 5,000+ right now. Then we can perhaps repeat with new makes/models at least until legislation stops this.

PM me if questions.

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:45:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/29/2006 10:46:34 AM EST by SSDriver]
I just want to say thanks to you for your FAQ over at calguns and all the help you have given. I am currently in the process of getting 3 receiver right now and couldn't be happier. I was able to opserve in person the double star receivers and must say they are top-notch receivers. I'm awaiting a ameetec receiver and hope it is as nice as the double star. I also want to thank all of the out-of-state dealers/people that have helped. Many people in CA are excited to get a "Real" AR style receiver and this wouldn't be possible with out everyone's help. Thanks again everyone we really appreciate it.

P.S. For some reason calguns will not let me register on there forum. Keeps saying my e-mail(tried multiple e-mails) is banned. Its kind of frustrating to only be able to observe when aquiring information.

-William
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:04:26 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 7:43:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:01:51 PM EST
Best wishes to our friends in California.

And when you get tired of contorting yourselves to fit loopholes, I-5 North baby.

Link Posted: 1/29/2006 9:29:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By heme11:
VIVA OFF LIST LOWERS!!!

www.gorillapack.com/albums/heme15/heme_03_15_012106_copy.sized.jpg

bump!



*drool*
Link Posted: 1/29/2006 10:01:13 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 6:53:54 AM EST
btt
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 3:32:19 PM EST
thanks again to bweise for all his work for us in CA!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 5:33:31 PM EST
Great work Bill
Thanks for all the help
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 7:52:13 PM EST

Originally Posted By ca_longshot:
Thanks for all the help



No worries, glad to help. I am just one of several folks - I did the easy part, writing this stuff up...

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:05:05 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ellery_Holt:
Best wishes to our friends in California.

And when you get tired of contorting yourselves to fit loopholes, I-5 North baby.

mysite.verizon.net/tportinga/i5n.jpg



I know exactly where that sign is.... thats so scary.

I love my off list lower!
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:43:30 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 8:47:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 10:17:21 PM EST
dunno why I'm thanking you over here when I can thank you over at CGN, but thanks for everything you've done for us Bill.

Its greatly appreciated.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 11:38:02 PM EST
I'd like to use my first post ever here on ARFCOM to also thank Bill for his tireless efforts on behalf of freedom-loving Californians.

Please, Mods, honor Mr. Wiese's request for a sticky.
Link Posted: 1/30/2006 11:55:16 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/31/2006 12:38:16 AM EST
Ack! Must have been the reply in the classifieds! Those don't count on some boards.

Anyways, bump for Mr. Wiese!
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 12:22:45 PM EST
thanks for the kind words, all.

bumping so people see the initial post...

Link Posted: 2/1/2006 7:52:39 PM EST
btt
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:19:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:23:58 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:30:32 PM EST
So if you Cali people get a lower that is not yet BANNED you can build a no ban featured AR15? All the goodies on it?
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 10:42:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By FlyingFive0:
So if you Cali people get a lower that is not yet BANNED you can build a no ban featured AR15? All the goodies on it?



All of them EXCEPT the detachable mag. Have to fix a 10 round mag for now. When the CA DOJ updates the list and declares the new lowers as banned, we can register them as AW and pull the 10 rounder.

Viola! Instant EBR!
Link Posted: 2/1/2006 11:18:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:51:13 AM EST
Well, that is awesome for you guys! I would be having about a dozen or two lowers on standby (unless they have to be built rifles )
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 7:54:52 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:08:37 AM EST
btt...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 9:48:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By operatorerror:

Originally Posted By FlyingFive0:
So if you Cali people get a lower that is not yet BANNED you can build a no ban featured AR15? All the goodies on it?



All of them EXCEPT the detachable mag. Have to fix a 10 round mag for now. When the CA DOJ updates the list and declares the new lowers as banned, we can register them as AW and pull the 10 rounder.

Viola! Instant EBR!



And if they never put them on the list?

Again i ask this again and again but no one from Ca seems to want to answer. Why do you think they will put these on the list when right now you cant build anything but a neautered gun with them?

if they put them on the list then you must be given a chance to register them (if they dont change the law or find their own loophole). So what is their incentive to put them on the list?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 11:04:20 AM EST

Originally Posted By Dace:
And if they never put them on the list?

Again i ask this again and again but no one from Ca seems to want to answer. Why do you think they will put these on the list when right now you cant build anything but a neautered gun with them?



Because you are politically naive and not thinking like a politician - you're trying to use common sense.

It would be inconceivable for CA lawyers and regulators to allow two types of receivers to exist - named and banned, unnamed and legal - regardless of features/configuration. They're less worried about configuration than control and authority and demonstrating they're doing work.

We caught them napping for 5 years and now they're waking up. Legislation to close this gap and the name game will follow. But for now, "keeping assault weapons under control" will be their mantra. Most folks don't know the minor details of the law and antigun voters would be just as scared of a fixed-mag AR even though it's legal.



if they put them on the list then you must be given a chance to register them



Correct. Registration period is mandatory if listed.


(if they dont change the law or find their own loophole).


They can't find a loophole. Between existing law (which is quite clear) and Harrott we are fully exploiting this legislatively unaddressed issue.

The law could - and likely will! - be changed. That'll take 6-7 months and subject to gov's veto/signature. In the meantime more off-list lowers will flow in unless list updated.


So what is their incentive to put them on the list?


Control. Showing authority. Demonstrating they are doing work and making up lost time since they were caught napping. Plus AG Bill Lockyer is running for election for Treasurer.

I don't think they really want to see 30,000 off-list lowers come into the state.

Don't think about this rationally. This is all about feel-good issues and not about end results.

We KNOW the DOJ is updating the list. They are scurrying around looking for brands/models that have been sold. Expect listing action anytime but 2nd week of February is worst case (well, best case for us- it coulda been earlier).


Bill Wiese
San Jose



Link Posted: 2/2/2006 12:11:23 PM EST
btt for original topmost post...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 1:46:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:00:45 PM EST by jollyroger]
Sorry to hear California is making things harder for you.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:39:06 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:13:18 PM EST by bwiese]
deleted post...
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 2:57:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 3:15:26 PM EST by jollyroger]
Removed.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 6:22:48 PM EST
Glad to hear that so many have come into the state. One local FFL told me on Saturday that even though it's legal he won't even think of dealing w/an AR-type lower. He's the typical "If it ain't a Colt 1911 in .45 then it ain't $hit" kind of dealer, though, so it's to be expected.

Good luck with this.
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 10:19:59 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/3/2006 12:05:56 AM EST by bwiese]
I'm pretty sure at least 5,000 have made it into CA.

If the DOJ delays another 2-3 weeks we can maybe get 10,000 total in here! Wheeeee!

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 11:18:25 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/2/2006 11:18:56 PM EST by Ellery_Holt]

Originally Posted By bwiese:
I'm pretty sure at least 5,000 have made it into CA.

If the DOJ delays another 2-3 weeks we can get 10,000 here! Wheeeee!

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA



So, that giant sucking sound we hear -- it's all the lowers rushing into California?

Hey, I know California hasn't always sucked when it comes to guns, but it's sure sucking now isn't it?
Link Posted: 2/2/2006 11:27:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By bwiese:
I'm pretty sure at least 5,000 have made it into CA.

If the DOJ delays another 2-3 weeks we can get 10,000 here! Wheeeee!

Bill Wiese
San Jose CA



Uh huh...................................
Link Posted: 2/3/2006 12:05:33 AM EST

Originally Posted By Ellery_Holt:

So, that giant sucking sound we hear -- it's all the lowers rushing into California?

Hey, I know California hasn't always sucked when it comes to guns, but it's sure sucking now isn't it?



Haha.

Here's an example. In early December Stag Arms apparently had an inventory of 960 lowers.

After the 'kick off' by 10%Firearms at the December San Jose gunshow, and all the attention it brought to off-list lowers in CA, the Stag inventory was depleted in around 2 weeks. We can't assume CA took it all, but CA likely it took 85%-90+% in this short time.


Bill Wiese
San Jose
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