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Posted: 1/31/2011 8:56:06 PM EDT
Hopefully I dont get beat up too much here....I used the search function and didnt turn up much......so sorry if it has been beat to death before. I am going to buy a backup BCG just to have anyways, but I was debating trying that spikes NiB BCG. Now I dont have any illusions about shooting thousands of rounds using no lube or anything like that....cause that just sounds dumb. What appeals to me is the ability to just wipe clean after shooting. I wanted to replace my current BCG with a FA version anyways, so any input from users? I know everybody loves the BCM.....and that would be without a doubt the way I went if people didnt recommend the spikes. I know the extra hundred bucks or so is a lot...but its a relatively small price to pay for just one less solvent headache obtained scrubbing the you-know-what out of the tail of my bolt. Any input would be appreciated
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:23:00 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 9:26:00 PM EDT by durabo]
here we go again

first of all, you CAN fire thousands of rounds without lube. Many people have done it, google it. But no one says you HAVE to run it lube free, and there really is no reason to unless you are in a dusty sandy enviroment. But just a couple drops of lube and you are good to go.

Check the other site which shall not be named, Fail Zero (who coats spikes NiB BCG) has an industry forum there. Lots of information out there.

Ill break it down like this -

If youve never used it, and aren't willing to try out new things... you probably don't think its worth the cost.

If you have used it, youll immediately love it and likely never buy anything else.

These are not absolute rules here, but thats usually the way the argument pans out.

Here is one of the most active threads on it recently. Read the whole thing, there is alot of info, and the usual argument is draw out so you can see both sides of the coin.

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=520260&light=

Me I only buy NiB coated BCGs AND upper receivers. Im a believer.

Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:25:47 PM EDT
Yes, it has been beaten to death...

I am a proponent of bolt/carrier (and FCG for that matter) coatings.

If you are on a tight budget, skip it as it's a nice to have feature...if you don't mind the extra $100 or so, get it.

Yes, you can run 1,000s of rounds w/o lube, but I don't know any one who does.

Yes, they do pretty much wipe clean and that to me is worth $100.

I don't have a Spikes (BCM and LWRC) but would assume they perform similarly.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:38:03 PM EDT
I'd pass on the NiB BCG. A std phosphated BCG like BCM, DD, Spike's will be just fine and I can't remember the last time I've cleaned mine. The only exception for me is for shooting suppressed. With all of the blow back with suppressors I think it'll be worth it and I'll be getting one for my SBR which will be suppressed.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 10:01:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 10:10:11 PM EDT by tinman1975]
I didnt say you couldnt shoot thousands of rounds without lube.....like Chris Rock said...."you can drive a car with your feet if you want to....that doesnt make it a good F'ing idea". Thanks For the link though....I guess I was hoping on more input from users instead of people arguing back and forth about metallurgy and car parts, and internet studies, and how bitchinn their chrome BCG's work, and how the manufacturer's site says this....so it must be true. I was interested more for ease of cleaning....and stated that that would make it worth the extra 100 bucks to me if it was true. For whatever reason my search function only allowed me to search the last 30 days...and it didnt turn anything up on the subject.....so sorry if i dug up a dead horse
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 11:34:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tinman1975:
I didnt say you couldnt shoot thousands of rounds without lube.....like Chris Rock said...."you can drive a car with your feet if you want to....that doesnt make it a good F'ing idea". Thanks For the link though....I guess I was hoping on more input from users instead of people arguing back and forth about metallurgy and car parts, and internet studies, and how bitchinn their chrome BCG's work, and how the manufacturer's site says this....so it must be true. I was interested more for ease of cleaning....and stated that that would make it worth the extra 100 bucks to me if it was true. For whatever reason my search function only allowed me to search the last 30 days...and it didnt turn anything up on the subject.....so sorry if i dug up a dead horse


eh, like i said, you can run it for thousands for rounds with out lube... no ill effects. the NiB is basically ambivalent to lube or not. Itll work the same either way.

and yes, cleaning is a snap. I regularly run a few hundred rounds of silver bear through and then wipe it down with a paper towel and its clean. No scraping or soaking in brake cleaner or whatever. Although a quick spray with brake cleaner does the same thing... just washes right off.

So yeah, if cleaning is your main concern, buy it.

Phosphate ones aren't hard to clean in the first place, but cleaning my NiB BCG is a snap.

I have the coated upper receiver too, cleaning is just as easy. Plan on someday getting one of their barrel extensions as well, just for the cleaning ease.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 5:54:49 AM EDT
I own a Spikes Nickel Boron BCG as well. The only thing I noticed that I didnt like, is the gas seemed to have gotten hot enough to eat the coating off the tail of the bolt and cause what looks like copper or even rust to appear. I wanted to take a wire brush to it, but I have set it aside until I have more time to look at it closely and find out more from others. Anyone else had this issue? Im going to have to take pictures later this evening and post them. I clean my rifle and BCG properly after each use, so it's not like I hung it up wet. Hell, I have a throw down AR rifle thats been through the 7th layer of hell, the swamps of the south, the frigid mountains in the north, and back, used and abused, built on inexpensive milspec parts i had laying around and the internals of that gun are spotless. The exterior is a different story. hooorah.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 6:38:58 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GGGBeo50:
I own a Spikes Nickel Boron BCG as well. The only thing I noticed that I didnt like, is the gas seemed to have gotten hot enough to eat the coating off the tail of the bolt and cause what looks like copper or even rust to appear. I wanted to take a wire brush to it, but I have set it aside until I have more time to look at it closely and find out more from others. Anyone else had this issue? Im going to have to take pictures later this evening and post them. I clean my rifle and BCG properly after each use, so it's not like I hung it up wet. Hell, I have a throw down AR rifle thats been through the 7th layer of hell, the swamps of the south, the frigid mountains in the north, and back, used and abused, built on inexpensive milspec parts i had laying around and the internals of that gun are spotless. The exterior is a different story. hooorah.

Yeah, let's see the pics.


I'm thinking it is probably just a discoloration due to heat. This happens to other parts as well when you get away from the standard alloys or coatings.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:10:18 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:

Originally Posted By GGGBeo50:
I own a Spikes Nickel Boron BCG as well. The only thing I noticed that I didnt like, is the gas seemed to have gotten hot enough to eat the coating off the tail of the bolt and cause what looks like copper or even rust to appear. I wanted to take a wire brush to it, but I have set it aside until I have more time to look at it closely and find out more from others. Anyone else had this issue? Im going to have to take pictures later this evening and post them. I clean my rifle and BCG properly after each use, so it's not like I hung it up wet. Hell, I have a throw down AR rifle thats been through the 7th layer of hell, the swamps of the south, the frigid mountains in the north, and back, used and abused, built on inexpensive milspec parts i had laying around and the internals of that gun are spotless. The exterior is a different story. hooorah.

Yeah, let's see the pics.


I'm thinking it is probably just a discoloration due to heat. This happens to other parts as well when you get away from the standard alloys or coatings.


or mistaking carbon build up for the coating flaking off.

Or improper cleaning and scraping it way with too aggressive cleaning.

But honestly GGG, EXO is a permanent coating, and if yours is flaking off from the heat, you would be the first case in existence ive heard about, and im sure Fail Zero would like to have your bolt for testing and examination purposes. Or in the very least you would be up for a replacement for free, they do have a lifetime warranty you know.

Lets see the pics?
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:14:01 AM EDT
Is it already that time for our new, weekly BCG coating thread?
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:23:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By durabo:
Originally Posted By DanTSX:

Originally Posted By GGGBeo50:
I own a Spikes Nickel Boron BCG as well. The only thing I noticed that I didnt like, is the gas seemed to have gotten hot enough to eat the coating off the tail of the bolt and cause what looks like copper or even rust to appear. I wanted to take a wire brush to it, but I have set it aside until I have more time to look at it closely and find out more from others. Anyone else had this issue? Im going to have to take pictures later this evening and post them. I clean my rifle and BCG properly after each use, so it's not like I hung it up wet. Hell, I have a throw down AR rifle thats been through the 7th layer of hell, the swamps of the south, the frigid mountains in the north, and back, used and abused, built on inexpensive milspec parts i had laying around and the internals of that gun are spotless. The exterior is a different story. hooorah.

Yeah, let's see the pics.


I'm thinking it is probably just a discoloration due to heat. This happens to other parts as well when you get away from the standard alloys or coatings.


or mistaking carbon build up for the coating flaking off.

Or improper cleaning and scraping it way with too aggressive cleaning.

But honestly GGG, EXO is a permanent coating, and if yours is flaking off from the heat, you would be the first case in existence ive heard about, and im sure Fail Zero would like to have your bolt for testing and examination purposes. Or in the very least you would be up for a replacement for free, they do have a lifetime warranty you know.

Lets see the pics?


Ill have them up tonight as long as the power doesnt go down from the hard freeze. We went from 76 to 22 in less than 24 hrs. And to clarify, I dont clean too aggressively, I know what carbon build up looks like and it sure doesnt happen in less than 100 rounds of use. Im not knocking on this BCG, I think its badass, but may advise on running the carrier only in the longrun for my liking.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 9:09:22 AM EDT
I never seen the need to pay $100 more on something like that. I would rather spend the $100 on rails, optics and ammo.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 9:33:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:
I never seen the need to pay $100 more on something like that. I would rather spend the $100 on rails, optics and ammo.


Yeah, you could totally build your entire upper out of UTG parts for $100........

Dont forget, you get what you pay for in this game.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 9:46:36 AM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 2:41:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By GGGBeo50:
Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:
I never seen the need to pay $100 more on something like that. I would rather spend the $100 on rails, optics and ammo.


Yeah, you could totally build your entire upper out of UTG parts for $100........

Dont forget, you get what you pay for in this game.


What you are saying is the BCM BCG will fail much earlier since its not coated, and I need to spend $100 more on the bolt to have it last longer much longer. What is the failure rate on the NB BCG? Did Pat Rogers put it through a 30K+ rounds like the plain old mil-spec bolt? How much better did it hold up? I'm curious to know how many more rounds will I get out of NB BCG over the old crappy BCM BCG - I'm trying not to forget that you get what you pay for.

Were not talking UTG parts here - were talking quality mil-spec parts vs quality non-milspec upgraded parts. I dont see what you gain except its cool and its easier to clean. Like I said before, I would rather take that $100 and put it toward optics, rails or other things. I can see that people like them and I think they are cool and its very nice to have choices and money to blow on things we dont need.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 2:45:19 PM EDT
blah blah spikes blah blah.........
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:28:22 PM EDT
Heck ... what is all the fuss about cleaning the AR? I actually enjoy cleaning mine.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:43:00 PM EDT
Interesting article on Vuurwapen Blog

Does Nickel Boron Reduce Heat?

Been looking at that bcg myself...
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 3:51:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 3:55:18 PM EDT by DanTSX]

Originally Posted By durabo:
Originally Posted By DanTSX:

Originally Posted By GGGBeo50:
I own a Spikes Nickel Boron BCG as well. The only thing I noticed that I didnt like, is the gas seemed to have gotten hot enough to eat the coating off the tail of the bolt and cause what looks like copper or even rust to appear. I wanted to take a wire brush to it, but I have set it aside until I have more time to look at it closely and find out more from others. Anyone else had this issue? Im going to have to take pictures later this evening and post them. I clean my rifle and BCG properly after each use, so it's not like I hung it up wet. Hell, I have a throw down AR rifle thats been through the 7th layer of hell, the swamps of the south, the frigid mountains in the north, and back, used and abused, built on inexpensive milspec parts i had laying around and the internals of that gun are spotless. The exterior is a different story. hooorah.

Yeah, let's see the pics.


I'm thinking it is probably just a discoloration due to heat. This happens to other parts as well when you get away from the standard alloys or coatings.


or mistaking carbon build up for the coating flaking off.

Or improper cleaning and scraping it way with too aggressive cleaning.

But honestly GGG, EXO is a permanent coating, and if yours is flaking off from the heat, you would be the first case in existence ive heard about, and im sure Fail Zero would like to have your bolt for testing and examination purposes. Or in the very least you would be up for a replacement for free, they do have a lifetime warranty you know.

Lets see the pics?

I was thinking more along the lines of the KAC TT Brake. It will change color when shot with a suppressor or not. Nothing cleaning can do to change it.

Clearly NiB is not Inconel, but thats why I'd want to see pics.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 4:00:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 4:06:48 PM EDT by DanTSX]

Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:
Originally Posted By GGGBeo50:
Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:
I never seen the need to pay $100 more on something like that. I would rather spend the $100 on rails, optics and ammo.


Yeah, you could totally build your entire upper out of UTG parts for $100........

Dont forget, you get what you pay for in this game.


What you are saying is the BCM BCG will fail much earlier since its not coated, and I need to spend $100 more on the bolt to have it last longer much longer. What is the failure rate on the NB BCG? Did Pat Rogers put it through a 30K+ rounds like the plain old mil-spec bolt? How much better did it hold up? I'm curious to know how many more rounds will I get out of NB BCG over the old crappy BCM BCG - I'm trying not to forget that you get what you pay for.

Were not talking UTG parts here - were talking quality mil-spec parts vs quality non-milspec upgraded parts. I dont see what you gain except its cool and its easier to clean. Like I said before, I would rather take that $100 and put it toward optics, rails or other things. I can see that people like them and I think they are cool and its very nice to have choices and money to blow on things we dont need.

Choice is good man. Unless you are arguing that NiB is a bad thing, it's his $100, not seeing how it could hurt if it is otherwise in-spec and well built.


What part of the Spike's NiB BCG is "non-milspec" other than the NiB coating on it?
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 4:07:21 PM EDT
Originally Posted By DanTSX:

Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:
Originally Posted By GGGBeo50:
Originally Posted By ScottyPotty:

[/div][div]What part of the Spike's NiB BCG is "non-milspec" other than the NiB coating on it?[/div][/div]

The spider logo
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 4:56:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 5:33:33 PM EDT by GGGBeo50]
anyways, someone took the UTG parts joke the wrong way. A good mil spec BCG cost $130-150, I paid a little more, so what. A few more bucks for a great idea and a great company in my opinion. This BCG with my Tubbs chrome silicon buffer spring, cycles smoother and locks up tighter than any rifle on the block. I buy 90% of all my parts from Spikes because they are reliable and have excellent QC / customer service.
Here is the pic I took of the bolt tail. That copper stuff does not come off. It is slightly pitted when looked at under a magnifying glass which tells me either oxidation occurred or the coating mil thickness runs low on this portion of the bolt. I just want to know if this is just normal discoloration because of heat and if anyone else has experienced this. BCG functions perfectly, Its just changing colors on me.


Link Posted: 2/1/2011 6:05:33 PM EDT
Just checked both of mine.

I have a Fail Zero factory one, and an LMT that was coated by Fail Zero back when they were still coating individual orders.

The factory FZ one is used MUCH more than the LMT, and it is exhibiting the same coloration.

The LMT has only been used for about 500 rounds or so (been sitting around waiting for a rifle to be built for it) and it is not showing that coloration but i can definitely see marks in that general area and would assume that it is a precursor to the coloration.

Both are still slick as ever.


Im assuming that that coloration is either staining or the metal itself changing color from use, since the EXO coating is clear it is showing up instead of being hidden like it normally would.

Im going to send this forum page link to the guy i know at FZ and see what he thinks. Ill let you know.


Link Posted: 2/1/2011 6:35:44 PM EDT
Well.....It looks clean at least



Yeah, I have no idea. It is consistent if anything. If it is heat discoloration, it is not what I am familiar with or was expecting. I'm pretty sure that carbon build-up tends to hold heat, so in the absence of the carbon, maybe slightly more heat than normal is absorbed by the bolt? Just a wild thought....



That said, it doesn't look like anything that would concern me if it was my bolt. But it's not my bolt, and still a valid question for FZ in my opinion.


Best of luck!



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