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Posted: 5/8/2004 9:19:29 PM EST
if i had a CNC machine shop, i'd make good-looking, heavy-duty 30mm scope mounts and sell them for one-third of what the top ones are going for.
Link Posted: 5/8/2004 10:53:03 PM EST
That would be a piss poor business venture. You would never recoup your initial loss of buying a 6 axis CNC mill.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 3:55:49 AM EST
I think it is the money you make AFTER it has been recouped he is talking about. And I agree, which is why I won't ever pay those types of prices myself. I'll buy used, or someone like YHM will come out with the stuff at a reasonable price.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 4:54:29 AM EST
Sure, you could cut out the distributor and dealer mark up if you sold factory direct. But after a while you would be so busy you would either have to add staff or sell through a distributor. Overhead would increase, the distributor would need his cut, and your prices would go up to the same as all the others .
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 5:02:10 AM EST
300.00 for a piece of metal is a joke. same with all these people selling 100.00 BUIS.

you make more money by selling at lower prices, cause people will buy from you get tired of the dealers gouging people and then asking for a 3% paypal fee, get over it,
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 9:06:31 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2004 9:07:12 AM EST by Duffy]
Gouging? I don't believe there's much profit margin for them to begin with. They're expensive for dealers to buy, therefore expensive to sell. This is a competetive market, some of us are willing to pay a little more to get top notch service, others will shop and potentially buy from unknown and shady outfits, it's all up to you if you have the time to deal with a purchase gone bad. For the rest of us that value our time (time = money), it's better not to be penny wise and pound foolish.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 9:40:36 AM EST
maybe that mindset is responsible for a market with $60 front-end grips and $120 scope mounts?

*/takes a sip on a five dollar new jersey pepsi
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:05:35 AM EST
It's ironic that people continue to criticize this industry and yet they don't mind buying cars, fast food, and clothes. Did you know that the fountain drink you just bought at Taco Bell for $1.29 cost them about $.03? Unless you've owned a machining business, you probably have no idea what it costs to produce this stuff. Now quit yer bitchin' and go have a hamburger!
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:09:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2004 10:25:26 AM EST by Duffy]
Quality, R&D and excellent enginrering don't come cheap, especially in a highly industrialized nations where skills required to execute and manufacture these things you menion are prohibitively expensive. I'd rather buy and support US designed and maufactured gears than the Chicom knock-off that are much cheaper. At the same time I'm sure you know why they're cheap, they spent no money on R&D, the material isn't up to specs, and they're made using cheap labor.

Demand dictates the price too. If nobody bought and paid for these items, these company wouldn't have survived, except these companies didn't design and produce them for civilian consumption, they'd do quite well supplying their wares to Uncle Sam.

There'll always be Mercedes and Bentleys for people that want them, there'll also be others for those that don't. Just a matter of what you want, and what it's worth to you.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:24:18 AM EST
To sum this thread up....

<­BR>





­

y­ou get what you pay for. Period.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:36:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:37:07 AM EST
over priced pieces of metal got that right , all about $$$ in their pockets
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:46:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 10:49:49 AM EST
Trying to justify the greed margin is rediculous. I don't buy a brand new car (pay for an expensive car), the only reason I eat fast food is because of schedule issues. I don't buy into that crap about the distributor not having a profit margin. The reason they don't have a profit margin is because the manufacturer is selling the crap so high, period. And the ONLY reason these people sell the crap so high is because they can. IMHO, it all started with gov't contracts and the $50 toilet seat. And it has continued to feed on itself. Face it, when the big boys started selling to the peasants they did so at prices which reflected what they got from the gov't. And it as moved on like that.

I don't hold the merchant responsible, I don't hold anyone responsible. I just don't pay those prices. Never have and never will. If more people REFUSED to pay those kinds of prices then they would come down. It is the law of economics. The old supply/demand cycle. Just my .02 and why I promote FAIRLY priced parts.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 11:14:05 AM EST
OK...let's look at it from a different perspective. I'd like all of the dissentors to go into work tomorrow and tell their bosses that they want an immediate paycut. After all, people all over the world are doing your job for a lot less money so you're obviously overpaid and a product of the American economy. You should be paid fair market value.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 12:02:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/9/2004 12:04:27 PM EST by Duffy]

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Drew-tx:
over priced pieces of metal got that right , all about $$$ in their pockets



I can see you're going to have a hard life.

-Troy



Nicely put Troy.
Some people get it, some don't. Oh well, it's not my part to educate anyone on such things, if they are happy with low quality pos, live and let live. Myself, I see value in things like Mercedes and will always own one, I can't fault others that don't.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 12:23:21 PM EST

Originally Posted By Duffy:

Originally Posted By Troy:

Originally Posted By Drew-tx:
over priced pieces of metal got that right , all about $$$ in their pockets



I can see you're going to have a hard life.

-Troy



Nicely put Troy.
Some people get it, some don't. Oh well, it's not my part to educate anyone on such things, if they are happy with low quality pos, live and let live. Myself, I see value in things like Mercedes and will always own one, I can't fault others that don't.



Duffy, I'm sort of sorry you don't deem that we deserve your sage intelligence. I just don't agree with your rationale. And I certainly don't agree with your arrogance. It just attempts to justify its existence, (arrogance).

I guess this ignorant peasant must continue to live in my squalor. Tisk, tisk, I just don't know enough to know what is good I guess. And for the record, I never said that I didn't want quality, I said it is overpriced by the system and perpetuated by the manufacters and gov't, and you know it.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 12:29:57 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 1:05:07 PM EST
I said it's not my part to educate anyone on such things, because I deem other members are much more knowledgeable, but even were I as well versed in all the engineering and manufacturing aspects, it's not my place to tell you what to do. As to anyone deserving my wisdom, I think you took it the wrong way. I try to give back to a board where people are generous in giving without asking anything in return, and as to any experience I've shared, you may take it for what it's worth, or leave it as someone's ranting.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 4:26:01 PM EST
I have run a successful small business, and let me say right now, you charge what the market will bear. If you are trying to get market share, you undercut your competition. Don't ever believe that business school crap about companies' margin being a few (1-5) percentage points. You charge what people will pay, and typically your big clients (think large corporations and the government) get a good deal, as they are paying your fixed expenses to keep you afloat, and the smaller clients (small businesses, individuals) get the worse deals, as they are where you are making more profits.

One of the ways to convince people to buy things at a large margin is the "snob appeal" factor. As in the Mercedes and Bentleys mentioned earlier. In those cases you pay more than you objectively get.

As to the manufacturing tolerances, I thought the whole idea of CAD/CAM and CNC was to improve quality and lower manufacturing costs. As for R&D, how much of that can there be for 30 mm scope mounts, vs 1 inch, really? And you are spreading those fixed R&D costs over hundreds (thousands?) of units. Also, aren't these companies also producing other products so most of the equipment is a sunk cost (unless it was bought just to produce 30 mm scope mounts)?

But don't rain on someone's parade, if they want to start a business to produce a better product at a lower cost, we should all encourage them. It's the American dream, and if they succeed, we all benefit.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 4:34:25 PM EST
In fairness, I had an email conversation with Mark LaRue regarding this matter. It was very educational. He brought up some good point for the small business people.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 5:51:50 PM EST
K, here's the deal on close tolerance machine costs.

Let me qualify this, as I have worked as an A & P helicopter mechanic for almost 20 years, and deal with very close tolerance items on a daily basis.

CNC machiening does indeed produce tighter tolerances at lower costs. But, as end mills, blades, etc. wear from machining/cuting operations over and over, they loose their tolerance. At this point the machine must be recalibrated to allow for the small differences in cuting/milling demensions due to the wear of the cuting tool. The tighter the tolerance, the more rejects, and the more recalibrations that are required.

The tighter the tolerance, the higher the cost, it's that simple. It isn't unusual for close tolerance items such as gas Turbin nozzles (nothing more than a disk with veins cut into it) to cost more than $20k, and a single rotor blade to cost more than $60k.

So, $108 for a buis doesn't seem that out of line to me. As always YMMV.
Link Posted: 5/9/2004 6:31:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By bsbg:
Sure, you could cut out the distributor and dealer mark up if you sold factory direct. But after a while you would be so busy you would either have to add staff or sell through a distributor. Overhead would increase, the distributor would need his cut, and your prices would go up to the same as all the others .



Link Posted: 5/9/2004 6:35:55 PM EST
Nope, didn't see anything in the thread that changed my opinion.

I'll stick with my KAC's, Surefires, PVS 14's, and other overpriced brand names. It all works every time I'm out the door, that's the vote that gets my dollars.
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