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Page AR-15 » Maintenance & Cleaning
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 4/22/2003 2:43:39 PM EDT
Or at least very little. Took apart my buddies AK47, and it was practically dry. Thing still cycles every time.

I was reading the Marine M16/M4 cleaning manual, and it said in extreme cold situations, to use a "dry"/"powder" lube. Can the AR15 still function when dry, or almost dry? just wondering out of curiosity.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 3:21:49 PM EDT
sure, it'll function dry but you will get excessive wear and galling of the aluminum. if you look closley at your friends ak i bet you will see wear(nice shiney metal) on the slide rails. they still need a light lube like all guns.
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 6:57:39 PM EDT
Whats the point of running a gun with no lube?
Link Posted: 4/22/2003 10:19:43 PM EDT
No lube for:

extreme cold conditions
extemely dusty/sandy conditions

IMO, you shouldn't need lubrication for a rifle to function (although I DO NOT recommend it).  It is mainly to prevent wear.
Link Posted: 4/23/2003 12:24:35 AM EDT
While it's true that a gun shouldn't NEED lubrication to WORK, it's a good idea to lubricate it so as to prevent or minimize wear and improve reliability.  As mentioned, there are times when lubrication can and does become a detriment but that isn't often.
Link Posted: 4/24/2003 11:29:25 PM EDT
I'm not sure about that. I've seen a dry M16 burn a bolt and fuse the carrier to the upper reciever. It was during pre-qual and it wasn't too many rounds or even at that fast a pace.
Link Posted: 4/27/2003 12:13:15 AM EDT
sure, it'll function dry but you will get excessive wear and galling of the aluminum. if you look closley at your friends ak i bet you will see wear(nice shiney metal) on the slide rails. they still need a light lube like all guns.
View Quote

hehehehe no they don't.
Link Posted: 4/27/2003 1:05:43 PM EDT
Most women run cars with little to no oil, and what's the result?
Or, better yet, oil that looks and feels like mud.
I shouldn't just say some women, because there are a LOT of guys out there who do the same.
"Oil change? Huh? I replace it as it leaks or burns out!"
"It's only 3 quarts low."

...and how long do these cars typically last?
Oil in cars isn't just lubrication, it is also for heat exchange. So it is slightly different.
In really rough enviroments, such as the Iraqi Deserts, our troops spend a good portion of every day maintaining their equipment. What else do you have to do anyhow?
The AK-47 has pretty loose tollerances so to speak, so lubrication isn't as crucial. Increase the tightness of the tollerances, and more metal to metal surfaces are rubbing against each other. You end up with a greater amount of friction this way.
This is a good reason why match space guns aren't the ideal weapons for combat. They must be in pristine condition to operate to gain their benefit of higher acuracy.
Loose tollerances in the AK-47 can help feed crap ammo with out of spec case sizes.
The term "best" part for the ar-15 is very subjective. Best for combat, and best for accuracy? Or where is a happy medium? This is why I'd prefer a Bushmaster or Colt bolt and carrier to a Les Baer product for a combat weapon.
Link Posted: 4/28/2003 12:17:43 PM EDT
After running about a 1000 rounds through my Bushy and cleaning it numerous times I have decided to try some "dry lube" (Hornady One- Shot) on the interior of the upper and lower receiver and the outside of the bolt carrier.  These parts of the mechanism experience minimal friction.  The bolt carrier slides against the upper receiver but almost all of the force is directed forward and backward.  The only pressure against the upper receiver is incidental contact due to the weight of the bolt and carrier.  The trigger group, safety lever, bolt catch and mag release all have minimal wear.  I feel all of these parts are a good canidate for a dry lube.  Plenty slick and will not attract grit.  The cam pin and bolt operated under extreme pressure and I will still use CLP for them.  I am hoping that this will lead to less carbon soup in my rifle when it comes time to clean.
Link Posted: 4/29/2003 12:28:23 PM EDT
I'm not sure about that. I've seen a dry M16 burn a bolt and fuse the carrier to the upper reciever. It was during pre-qual and it wasn't too many rounds or even at that fast a pace.

[b]I don't know what you are talking about but you are obviously mistaken. That is not possible the lolerances are no-where close to that tight-  we aren't talking about car pistons here

How do you "burn a bolt" what the thing gets red hot and melts into the upper? what you are talking about sounds like possible gas tube rupture or bolt carrier key seperation or bolt braekage in the locked position all very rare problems[/b]

it will run completely dry and won't gall but that should be avoided when possible. Anything that lowers the coefficcient of friction will reduce wear also. [b]Ak's who cares they suck anyway[/b]

I ALWAYS clean all the carbon off my M-16's carrier and then I rub a light coat of oil on the carrier and bolt and wipe it off to near dry- it should be buttery feeling with no liquid present- with a dry rag (this is rust protection) then I put one drop of CLP in the BC Key - to clean the underside of the gas tube that I cant reach One or two drops on the cam pin, and one-two drops on each of the FOUR bolt carrier rails.

That is it. this way I don't give Carbon a place to stick as there is very little oil in the upper and I never have problems with gummy crap in the chamber or oil spraying into my eyes and dirt/dust/sand sticking to the carrier. THE SIDES OF THE CARRIER DON"T EVER TOUCH THE UPPER (rather the rails ONLY).

The TM says leave the bolt dry (as in the bolt face and lugs) and I learned at Ft Benning that they were right- sand stops a gun faster than anything else and it won't stick to dry metal.

[b]I have run about 6,000 rds (not a lot but enough to know this works through my M-16 with 1 magazine related jam with live ammo (double feed)[/b]

I was cleaning a rifle this weekend (as my squad was cleaning the platoons weapons to "save time"< What BS (but I won't go there) that was used by one of the guys in my unit that oils like crazy- there was gummy black crap everywhere and it was a pain in the ass to clean. I wish they gave people classes on properly lubricating the weapon.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 2:34:06 AM EDT
I have a generic parts kit that I got at a gun show. I've noticed that if I don't lube the disconnector really well, the trigger will get hung up and wont reset when I let go of it until I help it forward. Yeah, I ordered a Bushmaster replacement firing group.
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 4:47:46 AM EDT
um excuss me how do AKs "suck?"
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 3:20:59 PM EDT
Sort of wondering that myself Darth.  AK's are only one of the most dependable military weapons on the planet, even the cheap ones function with almost 100% reliability.  Come to think of it, I wish all my weapons "sucked" as bad as they do.

Link Posted: 5/4/2003 8:06:39 PM EDT
Running an M16/AR truly "Dry" will be an exercise in malfunction clearing sooner than later,no matter the clime.

The AR is a close tolerance machine that is dependent upon momentum of the bolt carrier group to cycle.
Friction robs momentum of energy.

In cold climates the "Dry" lubes are used as they don't freeze or thicken robbing the action of momentum.

CLP and some others incorporate PTFE in the lube,and may give the perception that the action is "Dry" while the PTFE is still providing a physical barrier between the bearing surfaces of the rifles action.

Having prepped more than a couple clients rifles for use in the arctic,and consulting with professional guides before hand,I'll state that "Dry" rifles don't work well for too long.
Amoung the Inuit the favored lube for bolt rifles is 2-stroke fuel normally run in the snow machines.

Don't buy into it?
Completely degrease your AR using Birchwood casey Gunscrubber.
Then go try to burn 100 rounds.

Gotta side with the AK crowd on this one.
The AK is NOT lube dependent in any fashion.
Tolerences are so sloppy the operating parts flop around,bind,flex,and generally thrash themselves under operation,and lube is just a gold key that fits the Cadillac.
Ketchup will work nicely as AK or SKS lube.
Then again the AK wont ever win any sort of precision shooting contest,as it was never designed to do more than go bang reliably.
It's a crude tool,and therein lies it's beauty.

In short.
"Dry" is a relative term.
Sentry Solutions and Mil-Comm both offer reliable "Dry" options that still provide for lubrication.

Keep safe!

Page AR-15 » Maintenance & Cleaning
AR Sponsor: bravocompany
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