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AR Sponsor: bravocompany
Posted: 1/22/2009 5:04:00 AM EDT
so i'm still a little wet behind the ears with black rifles, wtf is so great about a piston system over a standard one? I see so many posts about OMG they are putting pistons on their guns!!!11!!  its $400 for a conversion kit that does what? makes your gun have something in common with your honda?
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 5:07:36 AM EDT
[#1]
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 5:11:43 AM EDT
[#2]
Actually, Piston Honda was a boxer...

Link Posted: 1/22/2009 5:21:46 AM EDT
[#3]
lol, sushi, kmikaze, fujiyama, nippon ichi.......


yes, i loved punch out.

but seriously, is there a reason to the madness of spending $400 on this "conversion"
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 5:30:19 AM EDT
[#4]
Well my rifle has fired 3900 rounds with 0 problems.  Not sure how much reliable a piston kit is going to make it  Not to mention everybody and their brother makes those kits right now and they're all a little different.  I would guess in 5 years only one or two stand the test of time as to be the 'best' of the designs.  Personally I don't feel like paying to be a tester for parts my rifle doesn't need.  I think its a bit of a fad myself. If I want a piston, I'll buy a complete piston rifle.
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 6:09:26 AM EDT
[#5]
IN THE FUTURE ALL AR'S WILL BE PISTON OPERATED




Link Posted: 1/22/2009 6:28:27 AM EDT
[#6]
so you pay $400 to be lazy and not breakdown and clean your weapon? hmm, me thinks its still a waste
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 6:44:07 AM EDT
[#7]


Except you dropped more than $15
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 6:48:31 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
so you pay $400 to be lazy and not breakdown and clean your weapon? hmm, me thinks its still a waste


Agreed, I think pistons are a fad.  They won't become the industry stanard.  Clean and lube, an your rifle will peform flawlessly.

Link Posted: 1/22/2009 7:39:13 AM EDT
[#9]
lol, if I wasn't a prior car guy i wouldn't have noticed the GAIN 15 HP!!!!! tornado in your intake, lol, good point tho, just another fad IMO, i got some good oils and cleaners, i think i'm set ;) thanks peeps
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 5:52:56 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 6:09:12 PM EDT
[#11]
Someone had a really good analogy awhile bad but I cant find it.

Basicly he said that it's the difference between an air cooler Harley and a water cooled Harley. The die hards will say nothing was wrong with the air cool, and they are right. The new comers say the new design works great as well and have a few advantages over the old system, also true (key word, few). In the end they are both right and you just pick what you can afford or would like to have.

Personally, I like both and probably in the end I will own both. Everyone calls them a fad but they wont go away. They are still in the infant stages in my opinion and like anything they will get cheaper as it gets older and more widespread. In about 5 years you will see the piston system available on any reputable maker of AR and they probably will all use a more standard system(i.e parts could be more interchangeable). Prices might only differ by $100 by then as well.
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 9:35:59 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
Someone had a really good analogy awhile bad but I cant find it.

Basicly he said that it's the difference between an air cooler Harley and a water cooled Harley. The die hards will say nothing was wrong with the air cool, and they are right. The new comers say the new design works great as well and have a few advantages over the old system, also true (key word, few). In the end they are both right and you just pick what you can afford or would like to have.

Personally, I like both and probably in the end I will own both. Everyone calls them a fad but they wont go away. They are still in the infant stages in my opinion and like anything they will get cheaper as it gets older and more widespread. In about 5 years you will see the piston system available on any reputable maker of AR and they probably will all use a more standard system(i.e parts could be more interchangeable). Prices might only differ by $100 by then as well.


Piston conversions have been available for at least 30 years...

I don't know of two piston systems that interchange parts...

As far as getting cheaper.

Like I said...  At least 30 years.
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 9:40:16 PM EDT
[#13]
I guess it depends on what your rifle's mission is. Is it a range Rambo, or a SHTF weapon? A tool is a tool designed for a specific job. If you want a piston AR then get one. If the primary purpose of your rifle is MadMax then stick with gas. His parts could be your parts.
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 10:06:15 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
at the end of the day, the $400 piston  will work just as well as the $12 gas tube it replaced.


Been said many times, always true.  Just not necessary in my opinion.  My DI AR works great.  The many other DI ARs/M16s I've used have run just fine.

As other posters have pointed out, parts interchangeability is nice to have, with your standard AR and the thousands of other ones out there.

Someone before pointed out that most every other major type of pistol driven rifle has rails in the reciever, which the bolt carrier rides on or in between.  

The AR was never designed to operate like this.  The whole "carrier tilt" thing comes to mind............................
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 10:10:59 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
at the end of the day, the $400 piston  will work just as well as the $12 gas tube it replaced.


this
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 10:16:02 PM EDT
[#16]
I own two diffrent piston systems and one DI system.  They are all great rifles.  The DI works fine for my applications, as long as i clean it after every use.  
The gas piston systems run much cleaner and cooler.  Some people talk about carrier tilt being a HUGE issue, when in reality... it is not.  I have no wear.  
As posted earler, they are not fixing a problem.  I see it as just advancing technology.  People buy new cars, tv and computers that are better than the last for some very stupid reasons.  People also buy things when they feel a problem has been addressed.  There is nothing wrong with a new systenm taking over if it is better.... not saying the old one sucks.... but the new one is better.  
My old ducati runs great...but not nearly as nice as the new ones......... my old one has to problems.... its just outdated!
I
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 10:16:32 PM EDT
[#17]
The piston is a reason the M1 Garand and M14/M1A are such finicky little bitches, too.

DI works, it works well.
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 10:16:55 PM EDT
[#18]
Quoted:
Quoted:
at the end of the day, the $400 piston  will work just as well as the $12 gas tube it replaced.


this


That may well be true ... but I've had 4 DI AR's, never a single problem with any of them ... but I wanted something nice, new and cutting edge.  I wanted something slightly different to test, compare and come to my own conclusions.

I had wanted an MRP for years ... so when I saw they were coming out with piston MRP's I decided I had to try one.

I don't regret my purchase in the least bit, the gun is badass and clean as hell.

Was it worth the premium over a standard MRP setup? That's up to you.  Time will tell.
Link Posted: 1/22/2009 10:46:44 PM EDT
[#19]
I bought a POF piston upper a couple years ago, and slapped it on DPMS lower.  It's reasonabley accurate, though my DI guns are a little more accurate.  It's somewhat heavier than DI guns.  It's dead reliable, but I've had few problems whith most of my DIs (my 20" Bushy is finicky with Wolf ammo).  The POF is much easier to clean, and I can go longer between cleanings.  That can be important at times.  I've been shooting 3-gun matches with it, and at Ironman I really don't want to clean guns at the motel after a 14 hour day on the range.  The POF has never failed, except for 2 feeding failures right after I got it that I traced to a magazine.

All that said, and as much as I like it, I don't think it was worth the money.  My DI guns work fine, are more accurate, are lighter, and cost MUCH less.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 5:39:58 AM EDT
[#20]
How many modern assault rifles use direct impingement? The Scar, Aug, XM-8, G36, Masada/ACR, Tavor, FN2000, AK-74. Those are all DI right. Oh, their piston. Gee, I wonder why that is.

In the SCAR trials the XM-8 stopped 127 times, the SCAR stopped 226 times, the HK 416 stopped 233 times, and the M-4 (a Colt M-4 the best M-4 the fan boys tell me) stopped 882 times.

Don't get me wrong. I think DI has its place. I certainly can't build a nice piston gun for $700. However my ultimate AR build was piston. It is better. Even with carrier tilt it would be better but due to better designed carriers and buffers I really don't have to worry about that anymore. I agree that it is a shame that their is no "standard" piston system with interchangeable parts made by many manufacturers for SHTF longevity purposes. Of course I have the parts on hand to convert back to the inferior DI system should my piston quit so its really not a big whoop. I certainly would rather have a piston system in my hand should all hell brake loose.

As for cheep failure prone pistons like the Aries (I'm told). Screw them, they suck just like cheep out of spec DI guns.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 6:16:58 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
How many modern assault rifles use direct impingement? The Scar, Aug, XM-8, G36, Masada/ACR, Tavor, FN2000, AK-74. Those are all DI right. Oh, their piston. Gee, I wonder why that is.

In the SCAR trials the XM-8 stopped 127 times, the SCAR stopped 226 times, the HK 416 stopped 233 times, and the M-4 (a Colt M-4 the best M-4 the fan boys tell me) stopped 882 times.

Don't get me wrong. I think DI has its place. I certainly can't build a nice piston gun for $700. However my ultimate AR build was piston. It is better. Even with carrier tilt it would be better but due to better designed carriers and buffers I really don't have to worry about that anymore. I agree that it is a shame that their is no "standard" piston system with interchangeable parts made by many manufacturers for SHTF longevity purposes. Of course I have the parts on hand to convert back to the inferior DI system should my piston quit so its really not a big whoop. I certainly would rather have a piston system in my hand should all hell brake loose.

As for cheep failure prone pistons like the Aries (I'm told). Screw them, they suck just like cheep out of spec DI guns.



according to that trial the m4 stopped 1 time every 64 rounds.  I dont think vulcan jams that much!  Honestly its a waste of $.  If you want piston, id get a piston gun such as an ak, sig5xx... ect.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:58:38 AM EDT
[#22]
I'm planning on a Piston Upper purchase this year (assuming availability returns). I understand the practical arguments against and I don't disagree.

My point is, "who cares"? Many people would call buying any kind of AR-15 a "waste". Many think buying 100 magazines is a waste. A good lever action rifle is all most of us would ever come close to needing in an unlikely SHTF or self defense scenario if you are honest about it. Whether or not something is "worth it" is entirely a subjective thing, different for every person. If somebody wants to spend their money on it, great. That doesn't make it a bad choice, just because they have different priorities.

I mainly want a piston because I like knowing i'm keeping a lot of crud and heat out of the receiver. It makes me feel good knowing that theoretically, my BCG parts and internals will hold up longer. But bottom line, I rarely clean my guns after every shooting session. A piston gun means I can sleep better with less guilt and know my rifle is still 100% even after a full day of shooting. Do DI rifles work just fine also? Yes. Is it worth an extra $500 for me to slack on a cleaning. yes. Is it worth it to you, maybe, or maybe not. Either choice is fine based on your personal preferences.

My two cents.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 9:01:41 AM EDT
[#23]
Pistons are the way of the future....

Whys this?

Because the M16 family has always jammed until the invention of a piston...

All sarcasm aside, I will never own a piston. Adds too much weight for the tiny bit of reliability it will get. Plus if SHTF then you will probably never find replacement parts for your piston.

Link Posted: 1/23/2009 9:28:57 AM EDT
[#24]
that test is generally regarded as invalid–– I wouldn't put much stock in it.
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 9:43:43 AM EDT
[#25]
No one is going to disagree that a piston works and that it keeps the gun cleaner, but the DI system has worked well since day 1 also and some don't mind or actually enjoy breaking the weapon down and cleaning it. Less parts, less weight is never a "bad" thing either. As for myself, I gotta have that smell!
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 9:44:18 AM EDT
[#26]
Link Posted: 1/23/2009 7:58:42 PM EDT
[#27]
What are the top piston AR's? Where does CMMG rate?
Link Posted: 1/24/2009 12:26:35 AM EDT
[#28]
Quoted:
What are the top piston AR's? Where does CMMG rate?


LMT, Addax, LWRC, POF
Link Posted: 1/24/2009 12:48:44 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:


Piston conversions have been available for at least 30 years...

I don't know of two piston systems that interchange parts...

As far as getting cheaper.

Like I said...  At least 30 years.


I never said they did have interchangeable parts, just that it could happen in the future, more like an industry standard as they become more widespread.

I didn't know they were around for that long. Were they commercially available all that time or was it one of those every few years released things? Were they big money back in the day?

Like I said, I like both so i'm not disagreeing with you or looking for faults in your logic. I just want more info on the history.

Edit: btw, the article you posted didnt show up when i posted my last comment. Now I can see it.
Link Posted: 1/24/2009 6:59:00 AM EDT
[#30]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What are the top piston AR's? Where does CMMG rate?


LMT, Addax, LWRC, POF


So CMMG isn't even in the ballpark? Any particular reason?
Link Posted: 1/24/2009 7:12:46 AM EDT
[#31]
Quoted:
Fuel injection who needs that!! there is nothing wrong with my carburetor as long as I keep it tuned and stay out of the mountains




Well Said!!
My thoughts exactly!
Link Posted: 1/24/2009 7:27:22 AM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What are the top piston AR's? Where does CMMG rate?


LMT, Addax, LWRC, POF


& HK
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 2:53:17 AM EDT
[#33]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fuel injection who needs that!! there is nothing wrong with my carburetor as long as I keep it tuned and stay out of the mountains



Well Said!!
My thoughts exactly!


We seem to be at TBI right now. I'm waiting for MPFI
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:25:21 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
What are the top piston AR's? Where does CMMG rate?


LMT, Addax, LWRC, POF


So CMMG isn't even in the ballpark? Any particular reason?


Honestly, I didn't even know CMMG made piston uppers/conversion kits.

I've never used or seen any of their products in person, so I don't want to comment too much or start a flame war, but I've seen VERY mixed reviews of their products.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:18:53 PM EDT
[#35]
For me, there are two different groups of piston rifles.  Those that are factory offered and then there are 'kits'.  There is a major price difference between the complete factory rifles/uppers and 'kits' and that is where I think most people that want to go piston get into trouble.  Unless you have a spare upper you like to tinker with, I would suggest spending the extra money and get a factory made complete system.

At the time I ordered my LMT MRP CQB Piston, my dealer/gunsmith just got in the same rifle except it was their DI version.  It was $200 less than the Piston and I said thanks but no thanks.  I wanted to get the Piston.  I had to wait 8 months, but I don't regret the wait.  It is different, but if I want to change back to their DI system, all I have to do is get their barrel and BCG.  That's it, nothing more....very simple.

It's your money....spend it the way you want.  These rifles, even the least expensive ones cost a lot of money, so get what you want.  My only advise is to stick with the factory complete or at least their complete uppers.  You will get some kind of warranty if anything does not work as it should.
Link Posted: 1/26/2009 3:52:05 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Fuel injection who needs that!! there is nothing wrong with my carburetor as long as I keep it tuned and stay out of the mountains



Well Said!!
My thoughts exactly!


We seem to be at TBI right now. I'm waiting for MPFI



Well maybe with some piston kits. TBI might compare.
With others, such as HK and LWRC I would put them in the new direct injection ( on gas engines of course ) category!

Like many others have said on here, piston AR's
have had and still do have growing pains. The bigger more established companies seem to have them sorted out.
I own 4 piston AR's. My first one was over 3 years ago. Pistons really scared the Arfcom community then. The guns has been flawless. Im not fighting in the sand or a jungle with them but I do shoot the piss out of my piston AR's.
I know that certain people do not want to bring up the sand and dust testing that was done, but it is what it is. The M4 crashed compared to the HK and others.
The top spec op groups didnt want the HK because it was worse than the M4.

I like DI AR's. They have served our country well for a very long time. I just see adding a well designed piston to it is not all that bad.


Link Posted: 1/26/2009 4:14:09 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted:
at the end of the day, the $400 piston  will work just as well as the $12 gas tube it replaced.


+1
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