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Posted: 6/17/2009 5:14:47 AM EST
with my first build the order for my barrel got dropped and had to be re-ordered. then when i got the thing finished i lost my job and had to sell the weapon. now my second build i have been waiting eight months for my barrel and found out yesterday that that order somehow got dropped as well. also been frustrated with the common problems of getting the parts i want in this market. seems kinda like something doesnt want me to have an ar. well yesterday it got worse when my gunshop told me about a new law passed about three months(?) ago that says you cant purchase a lower (or pistol grip shotgun) until youre 21(im 20), i can buy a completed rifle but i already have the upper finished and really cant afford to buy a complete rifle. any ideas on what i can do?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:22:02 AM EST
I think what the gunshop is referring to is that you cannot buy a stripped lower until you are 21 because that stripped lower could be built into a pistol. You should be able to buy a rifle lower with a stock and parts kit installed since this would technically be a rifle.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:24:31 AM EST
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:27:42 AM EST
You could have your older brother buy the lower and give him the upper then have it transferred to you as a rifle. I guess.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:30:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 8:17:00 AM EST by nehpets99]
It's not a new law but a new ATF policy. Beforehand, you had two choices: handgun and long gun. 21 for the former, 18 for the latter. Well I guess enough people said "well what about stripped receivers?". Well, the ATF said those are neither, they are "other", and adjusted their policy accordingly to reflect their decision. Since it ain't a long gun, you've gotta be 21.

Only a designated pistol lower can legally be made into a pistol.

IIRC, the only way to get the lower to transferred to you would be to have your FFL build your gun for you (a big no-no if they don't have their 07 FFL) and transfer it over to you as a complete rifle.

ETA: Thanks for correcting me on what sort of lower can be turned into a pistol. Now I know and can stop repeating bad info.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:31:19 AM EST
When ever I bought a lower it was always listed as a lower on the form. My shop told me he can’t specify the type of rifle it is going to be on the form. So it is always a lower.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:31:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 5:32:14 AM EST by nehpets99]
Originally Posted By Dystopia:
You could have your older brother buy the lower and give him the upper then have it transferred to you as a rifle. I guess.


Straw purchase IMO.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:33:43 AM EST
so its only for stripped lowers? well thatll be okay i guess. does anyone have a link to the atf site page with this ruling on it?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:35:46 AM EST
Originally Posted By ravan:
so its only for stripped lowers? well thatll be okay i guess. does anyone have a link to the atf site page with this ruling on it?


Doesn't matter if it's stripped or not. Either it's a gun or it's a lower (IIRC). So even if it's just missing the upper, it's an "other" according to the ATF.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:37:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 5:38:43 AM EST by thedoctors308]
Let me guess - the shop had no lowers in stock, but plenty of complete rifles?

ETA: I guess ATF did issue a new ruling.
Well, gunstore employees are still liars.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:39:36 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 5:44:07 AM EST by Dystopia]
Originally Posted By nehpets99:
Originally Posted By Dystopia:
You could have your older brother buy the lower and give him the upper then have it transferred to you as a rifle. I guess.


Straw purchase IMO.


No it’s not.
If I buy a lower and build it into a rifle then take you to the gun store to have it transferred. How is this a straw purchase?


Now on the other hand you are not legally able to buy a firearm and someone goes into the store and buys it for you.
That’s a Straw purchase.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:42:09 AM EST
Originally Posted By thedoctors308:
Let me guess - the shop had no lowers in stock, but plenty of complete rifles?

ETA: I guess ATF did issue a new ruling.
Well, gunstore employees are still liars.


no they actually had about 8 stripped lowers and at least one complete lower. but they did have plenty of rifles in stock for the first time in about a year
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:42:48 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 8:17:36 AM EST by nehpets99]
18 USC 922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is
other than a shotgun or rifle
, or ammunition for a shotgun or
rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age


So they interpreted the statute restated their position to mean that if it ain't a rifle/shotgun, you've gotta be 21. They then classified a lower as an "other". "Other" is not rifle/shotgun, ergo, you have to be 21+.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:48:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 5:52:31 AM EST by nehpets99]
Originally Posted By Dystopia:
Originally Posted By nehpets99:
Originally Posted By Dystopia:
You could have your older brother buy the lower and give him the upper then have it transferred to you as a rifle. I guess.


Straw purchase IMO.


No it’s not.
If I buy a lower and build it into a rifle then take you to the gun store to have it transferred. How is this a straw purchase?


Now on the other hand you are not legally able to buy a firearm and someone goes into the store and buys it for you.
That’s a Straw purchase.


In my mind, it's a gray area, cause you're buying something for someone who can't buy it for themselves...but you're going to turn it into something that would be buyable. But still, you're buying it with the sole intention of of giving it to someone else. The 4473 says "You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person."

ETA: Do you need to go through a dealer to transfer firearms in a private sale in your state? If so, that sucks.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:54:44 AM EST
so how does this affect the shotguns? "i can sell you a shotgun and a pistol grip on the same receipt. i can sell you a shotgun and give you the pistol grip for free. but i cant sell you a shotgun with a pistol grip on it." quoting the gunshop owner talking about this new ruling in the conversation about the lowers
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:57:44 AM EST
Originally Posted By ravan:
so how does this affect the shotguns? "i can sell you a shotgun and a pistol grip on the same receipt. i can sell you a shotgun and give you the pistol grip for free. but i cant sell you a shotgun with a pistol grip on it." quoting the gunshop owner talking about this new ruling in the conversation about the lowers


Um...a shotgun with A pistol grip is still a shotgun...
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 5:59:25 AM EST
I think its funny how all of you are confused about this...


Come to New Jersey and have a taste of it here.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:05:24 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 6:06:47 AM EST by Dystopia]
Long guns don’t need to be transferred but I do transfer my rifles just to be on the safe side through a gun shop.

If I buy a lower and build it into a rifle shoot it a few times take it to be transferred to someone else it is now on the books as a rifle. It would be illegal to buy a lower and build it for my brother and just give it to him because it wasn’t registered as a rifle. So I go tho the shop and buy the lower build a rifle to give it to him for his 20th birthday. We go to the gun shop to have all the paper work done. Is this still illegal?
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:09:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 6:25:37 AM EST by nehpets99]
Originally Posted By Dystopia:
Long guns don’t need to be transferred but I do transfer my rifles just to be on the safe side through a gun shop.

If I buy a lower and build it into a rifle shoot it a few times take it to be transferred to someone else it is now on the books as a rifle. It would be illegal to buy a lower and build it for my brother and just give it to him because it wasn’t registered as a rifle. So I go tho the shop and buy the lower build a rifle to give it to him for his 20th birthday. We go to the gun shop to have all the paper work done. Is this still illegal?


Again, as I read the 4473, if you buy something in any form with the sole intention of giving/selling it to someone else (whether you go through a dealer or not), then yes, it's a straw purchase. Now...if you buy the receiver for yourself, build it up as a rifle for yourself, shoot it a few times, decide it'd make a better present for your brother instead, and gift/sell it to him, that's Kosher.

ETA: It's not illegal if it's not "on the books" as a lower...once a lower becomes a rifle, then it's a rifle. People that end up turning pistol lowers into rifles don't have to go through a dealer to get it "on the books" as a rifle.

I don't deal with gunshops when it comes to PRIVATE . The only guns I've sold have been to a trusted friend and a guy he vouched for. Both of them had CCW licenses and I got both of their drivers license numbers. All my state requires I do is not sell to someone who can't legally POSSESS the gun (i.e. convicted felon, mentally insane) so getting all of their information went above and beyond in OH.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:26:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 6:28:58 AM EST by Dystopia]
These laws are suppose to stop people from buying guns for criminals that can’t buy guns. They write them so they can be interpreted so no mater what you do you are breaking a law in some way.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:30:52 AM EST
That's my understanding, straw purchase is purchasing a weapon for someone that can NOT legally purchase the weapon themselves.

If you buy a stripped lower for your brother that is less than 21, its a straw purchase.

If you buy a stripped lower and after it has been built into a Long Rifle, changing its status, and you legally transfer it to your brother it is NOT a straw purchase.

Of course the less than 21 brother would be doing the building (not aware of any law that prevents letting a family member of any age help you build a rifle as long as they are NOT paid to do it), and it would be obvious the intent all along was for him to end up with the weapon, at the same time it would be obvious the intent all along was to construct a weapon that was legal for him to purchase to begin with. So, yes, its on shaky ground and someone could interpret it either way.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:34:12 AM EST
Like I said it's a big gray area.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:36:06 AM EST
Actually it's the same law since GCA '68 . A receiver has always never been a "rifle" or "shotgun" and "other by definition.

Dealers who sold receivers to 18-20 year olds were always breaking the law.

The influx of stripped receiver buying and people asking for "pistol" "registered" lowers got the ATF to restate and clarify the existing law.

It's not an interpretation as the law is clear on the matter.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:37:38 AM EST
If everyone involved made sure they had their tinfoil hats on they should be ok... although its illegal to use tinfoil in this way.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 6:38:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By nehpets99:
18 USC 922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is
other than a shotgun or rifle
, or ammunition for a shotgun or
rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age


So they interpreted the statute to mean that if it ain't a rifle/shotgun, you've gotta be 21. They then classified a lower as an "other". "Other" is not rifle/shotgun, ergo, you have to be 21+.


Look at the definition of rifle , a receiver is NOT a rifle. It's pretty clear , not a "interpretation"

I'll edit when I have time with relevant statutes
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:01:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 7:02:57 AM EST by Dystopia]
Yea if you bougt it for him and let him have it, it’s obviously illegal. He is under 21, but you bought it for yourself. It is registered to you in your name and SS#. You then “decided” to sell it or give it to him now after you built it into a rifle. He is legally able to buy or have a rifle so you take him to the store and transfer it to him as it is configured now as a rifle. They can’t say what you were or are thinking. If they could that would be scary. I don’t see a problem. You are selling a rifle to a law abiding citizen that has the right and is able to own a rifle.
Maybe someone that knows the law will be able to clear this up...


If you have to you could sell the upper and just buy a rifle. Or maybe trade it and some $$ for a complete rifle.


Good luck.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:02:51 AM EST
Originally Posted By ravan:
with my first build the order for my barrel got dropped and had to be re-ordered. then when i got the thing finished i lost my job and had to sell the weapon. now my second build i have been waiting eight months for my barrel and found out yesterday that that order somehow got dropped as well. also been frustrated with the common problems of getting the parts i want in this market. seems kinda like something doesnt want me to have an ar. well yesterday it got worse when my gunshop told me about a new law passed about three months(?) ago that says you cant purchase a lower (or pistol grip shotgun) until youre 21(im 20), i can buy a completed rifle but i already have the upper finished and really cant afford to buy a complete rifle. any ideas on what i can do?


I think I would contact a small MFG send them your upper/other parts for them to assemble your parts onto their lower receiver.
Then have them send your completed rifle to your local FFL. I believe all that would make your build legal.

With the shortage of parts some mfgs have been doing this to keep product moving that would otherwise be sitting there waiting on parts.
Spike's Tactical is local to me and would probably do something like that. You could try them, or another MFG closer to you.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:07:39 AM EST
If you want your upper trade for a rifle then trade uppers and your done. The other guy buys a lower now he has his upper back on his new lower. But this is probably completely illegal.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:10:33 AM EST
Has nobody else noticed this little gem of misinformation?

Originally Posted By nehpets99:
...
Only a designated pistol lower can legally be made into a pistol.

...


The regs state that it must have never been configured as a rifle, not that it must have such and such engraved on it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:31:44 AM EST
I believe the key words are: Licensed dealers, collectors etc. cannot.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:32:55 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 7:36:39 AM EST by lamarbrog]

Originally Posted By nehpets99:
Originally Posted By Dystopia:
You could have your older brother buy the lower and give him the upper then have it transferred to you as a rifle. I guess.


Straw purchase IMO.

Got a birthday coming up?

Bona fide gift.

PS: Put in a WTB or something... You can buy a handgun at 18, as long as the seller is not an FFL. So... Just buy a lower from someone that got bored of the AR game before they got it put together... Some people bought multiple lowers.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:47:20 AM EST
Originally Posted By ANGST:
Originally Posted By nehpets99:
18 USC 922
(b) It shall be unlawful for any licensed importer, licensed
manufacturer, licensed dealer, or licensed collector to sell or
deliver -
(1) any firearm or ammunition to any individual who the
licensee knows or has reasonable cause to believe is less than
eighteen years of age, and, if the firearm, or ammunition is
other than a shotgun or rifle
, or ammunition for a shotgun or
rifle, to any individual who the licensee knows or has reasonable
cause to believe is less than twenty-one years of age


So they interpreted the statute to mean that if it ain't a rifle/shotgun, you've gotta be 21. They then classified a lower as an "other". "Other" is not rifle/shotgun, ergo, you have to be 21+.


Look at the definition of rifle , a receiver is NOT a rifle. It's pretty clear , not a "interpretation"

I'll edit when I have time with relevant statutes


My apologies. I misspoke. The ATF clarified and restated their position that a receiver is not a handgun, rifle, or shotgun.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 7:51:21 AM EST
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Has nobody else noticed this little gem of misinformation?

Originally Posted By nehpets99:
...
Only a designated pistol lower can legally be made into a pistol.

...


The regs state that it must have never been configured as a rifle, not that it must have such and such engraved on it.


My apologies. I had been given bad information then.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:05:04 AM EST

Originally Posted By nehpets99:
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Has nobody else noticed this little gem of misinformation?

Originally Posted By nehpets99:
...
Only a designated pistol lower can legally be made into a pistol.

...


The regs state that it must have never been configured as a rifle, not that it must have such and such engraved on it.


My apologies. I had been given bad information then.

It isn't about what is engraved on it... It is supposed to be listed on 4473 as a pistol, instead of as a rifle.


Or am I wrong, too? I think this is correct, but I've been wrong before.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:13:45 AM EST
Originally Posted By nehpets99:
Only a designated pistol lower can legally be made into a pistol.

This is not correct. Any virgin stripped lower can be built into a pistol, that's the reason for the change in the regulatory interpretation in this case to require purchasers of receivers to be 21. This has been covered repeatedly here.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:15:54 AM EST
Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Originally Posted By nehpets99:
Only a designated pistol lower can legally be made into a pistol.

This is not correct. Any virgin stripped lower can be built into a pistol, that's the reason for the change in the regulatory interpretation in this case to require purchasers of receivers to be 21. This has been covered repeatedly here.


Yes, and if you read above I apologized for my misinformation stating that I myself was given bad info.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:24:30 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 8:25:35 AM EST by ProfGAB101]
There may be specific state laws which say the receiver must have been transfered as a pistol receiver for a pistol build to be legal.

I think the main reason people started doing this was to create a good CYA history in case such items are banned in the future and they have a paper trail to prove they are grandfathered.

It just my opinion, freely given, and worth every penny you paid for it.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 8:43:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By nehpets99:
Originally Posted By Amish_Bill:
Has nobody else noticed this little gem of misinformation?

Originally Posted By nehpets99:
...
Only a designated pistol lower can legally be made into a pistol.

...


The regs state that it must have never been configured as a rifle, not that it must have such and such engraved on it.


My apologies. I had been given bad information then.


That's OK he's not right 100% either :)


It my of never been "originally designed to be fired from the shoulder". Technically you can build a pistol from a virgin receiver, then configure it as a rifle, then turn it back into a pistol. (Think .45 1911 carbines as an example)
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 12:19:33 PM EST
Originally Posted By ANGST:
Actually it's the same law since GCA '68 . A receiver has always never been a "rifle" or "shotgun" and "other by definition.

Dealers who sold receivers to 18-20 year olds were always breaking the law.

The influx of stripped receiver buying and people asking for "pistol" "registered" lowers got the ATF to restate and clarify the existing law.

It's not an interpretation as the law is clear on the matter.


It was not illegal for dealers to sell to 18-20 year olds. According to the law, people 18-20 can buy only long guns and long gun ammo. Up until last year, stripped lowers were transferred as long guns. The law says absolutely nothing about only being able to transfer complete long guns.

On the issue of your brother buying the gun, it's absolutely illegal. No gray area. It is illegal for anyone without an FFL to purchase a firearm with the intent to sell it. Depending on where you live and your local laws, the only way to possibly do that within the law would be if your brother GAVE you the completed rifle as a gift. This means you can't pay him for it. Which also means you would have to have one very generous brother.

I'm in the same boat as you though. I turned 20 in April. I found out about the change in early November last year and picked up one last lower on November 5th. I'm sinking about $2000 in this rifle, so it's probably for the best that I can't get another until next year.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 4:04:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 4:04:55 PM EST by ANGST]
Originally Posted By Spyw:
Originally Posted By ANGST:
Actually it's the same law since GCA '68 . A receiver has always never been a "rifle" or "shotgun" and "other by definition.

Dealers who sold receivers to 18-20 year olds were always breaking the law.

The influx of stripped receiver buying and people asking for "pistol" "registered" lowers got the ATF to restate and clarify the existing law.

It's not an interpretation as the law is clear on the matter.


It was not illegal for dealers to sell to 18-20 year olds. According to the law, people 18-20 can buy only long guns and long gun ammo. Up until last year, stripped lowers were transferred as long guns. The law says absolutely nothing about only being able to transfer complete long guns.

On the issue of your brother buying the gun, it's absolutely illegal. No gray area. It is illegal for anyone without an FFL to purchase a firearm with the intent to sell it. Depending on where you live and your local laws, the only way to possibly do that within the law would be if your brother GAVE you the completed rifle as a gift. This means you can't pay him for it. Which also means you would have to have one very generous brother.

I'm in the same boat as you though. I turned 20 in April. I found out about the change in early November last year and picked up one last lower on November 5th. I'm sinking about $2000 in this rifle, so it's probably for the best that I can't get another until next year.






TITLE 18 > PART I > CHAPTER 44 > § 921

...

(7) The term “rifle” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of an explosive to fire only a single projectile through a rifled bore for each single pull of the trigger.


A receiver has no buttstock so it is not designed to be fired from the shoulder. A receiver does not have a rifled bore. A receiver is not a rifle. It never was.
This is the law the way it was written in 1968
.

Sec. 478.124 Firearms transaction record.
...
(f) Form 4473 shall be submitted, in duplicate, to a licensed
importer, licensed manufacturer, or licensed dealer by a transferee who
is purchasing or otherwise acquiring a firearm by other than an over-
the-counter transaction, who is not subject to the provisions of Sec.
478.102(a), and who is a resident of the State in which the licensee's
business premises are located. The Form 4473 shall show the name,
address, date and place of birth, height, weight, and race of the
transferee; and the title, name, and address of the principal law
enforcement officer of the locality to which the firearm will be
delivered. The transferee also must date and execute the sworn statement
contained on the form showing, in case the firearm to be transferred is
a firearm other than a shotgun or rifle, the transferee is 21 years or
more of age; in case the firearm to be transferred is a shotgun or
rifle, the transferee is 18 years or more of age


Again if it never had a buttstock it was never a rifle or shotgun, this is how a shotgun that never had a buttstock can be a smoothbore pistol and thus an AOW.




Link Posted: 6/17/2009 9:04:27 PM EST
How long do you have to keep the rifles you built before you sell them?
Say I built a 16" rife and decided I don’t want it, I want a factory 20" Bushmaster.
I built the rifle a month ago and decided to trade it or sell it to buy the new Bushmaster.
Did I break the law?
It could be seen as I bought and assembled the rifle to sell it. Not that I decided to go with another rifle.
How does this law work?
I’m confused??????

I’m not the brightest bulb in the box.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 9:13:54 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/17/2009 9:14:27 PM EST by Dystopia]
How would they enforce the money transaction. I mean if I go to transfer a gun with someone they don’t require the amount payed for the gun. Do They? I haven’t done it in a long time. Person A is transferring this gun to person B and the gun store is payed by person B the transfer fee. That’s all I remember.
Link Posted: 6/17/2009 9:35:49 PM EST
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