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Posted: 10/20/2004 4:56:48 PM EST
Just wondering what's the most amount of rounds you guys have put through your AR with no break just slapping mags in as fast as you can?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:06:42 PM EST
I dont know about AR's, but you should have seen my buddy try and shoot 675 rounds through his MAK-90. After 3 75 drums and 14 30 rounds the handguards lit up like fricking christmas lights. I suppose an AR could take about 100-150 rounds on semi.



When in doubt.......EMPTY THE MAGAZINE!!!!!
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:15:20 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 5:16:45 PM EST by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By 44magnum:
I suppose an AR could take about 100-150 rounds on semi.





They tested full auto M4's and got around 600 rounds of damn near continuous fire from magazines, before the barrel failed.

On semi.... I bet you would be hard pressed to even get the barrel to fail.... I have seen 100 round beta dumps tons of times... those are nothing.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:19:18 PM EST
I'm not as concerned about the barrel as I am the gas system.



PETA-People Eating Tasty Animals
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:22:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By 44magnum:
I'm not as concerned about the barrel as I am the gas system.



Unless you are using a substandard gas tube, thats pretty much a myth. ~600 rounds of Full Auto thru both a M16 and M4, continuous.... and the barrel melted before the gas system ever had a problem. On semi.... you could only expect more rounds to go through the weapon before you sustained a failure of the barrel or the gas system. Without a doubt, its gonna be a LOT more than 100 to 150 rounds, and should absolutely be more than the ~600 rounds they got in testing full auto.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:34:17 PM EST
Looks like I was misinformed about the gas system. I really dont "dump" very much, I've just always heard that the gas system was the weakest point on an AR. I am always happy to hear from people more educated on the topic and appreciate you clearing up that myth for me.
head.gif
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:39:11 PM EST
Weakest point on an AR is the magazine. I would be very surprised to see anyone run that much full auto without at least a couple mag feed failures.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:52:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 5:53:59 PM EST by wildearp]
Don't remember the round count, I bet 6 mags, maybe more, full auto, final protective fire exercise. The gas tube was glowing. It was YOUR gun, meaning taxpayer's gun. I say thanks. Semper Fi. I still qualified expert with that rifle, so no harm done.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:53:03 PM EST

Originally Posted By Not_A_Llama:
Weakest point on an AR is the magazine. I would be very surprised to see anyone run that much full auto without at least a couple mag feed failures.



Only mag feed failure I think I have *ever* had was on the first round out of the gate, hitting the bolt catch. A full rearward pull of the charging handle shoved it in all the way. On one other rifle, using HP match ammo, sometimes the round crams into the receiver instead of going up the ramp..... but once it fires the first round, its good to go as well. Even these are very rare. I sure cant remember any others.

You get about 1 mag feed failure per 300 rounds? I guess that doesnt sound awful.... or do you just mean on the first round?
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:53:56 PM EST

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Don't remember the round count, I bet 6 mags, maybe more, full auto, final protective fire exercise. The gas tube was glowing. It was YOUR gun, meaning taxpayer's gun. I say thanks. Semper Fi.



Did it fail? Barrels will glow for a long time before they fail.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:20:46 PM EST
Squeezed off a 100-round BETA once in a 14.5-inch M16. Stopped to reload it and squeezed of another 100-rounds.

All that was enough to melt the gas tube.

Didn’t know the sustained rate of fire for an M16 was 12-15 rounds.


Link Posted: 10/20/2004 8:31:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By wildearp:
Don't remember the round count, I bet 6 mags, maybe more, full auto, final protective fire exercise. The gas tube was glowing. It was YOUR gun, meaning taxpayer's gun. I say thanks. Semper Fi. I still qualified expert with that rifle, so no harm done.




I also did 500 +/- rounds in a M-16 A-2 non stop, It was at Ft. Sill Ok. and to be honest it had been snowing the day before and it was in the sub zero temp range, but there were NO failures of any type with this rifle, I also Qualified Expert with the same rifle in the same week..
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 9:03:57 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/20/2004 9:04:41 PM EST by Not_A_Llama]

Originally Posted By FALARAK:
You get about 1 mag feed failure per 300 rounds? I guess that doesnt sound awful.... or do you just mean on the first round?



Actually, it used to be that way with "iffy" USGI mags. Since I've switched to less dinged bodies and the Magpul followers, I've had very very good (dare I saw "perfect?") performance.

Also, my observation from the range indicates that magazine problems are the single greatest source of problems. Whether shitty mags (USA brand), dirty ones (rocks and such), or damaged (feedlips).

Magazines are, I feel, the most important part of the gun to keep in good condition.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 11:04:34 PM EST
the gas tube will fail before the barrel. there's a pic of the cav arms guys holding a rifle with a melted gas tube which proves this. it was from multiple beta dumps.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 4:54:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/21/2004 11:17:42 AM EST by FALARAK]

Originally Posted By inferno715:
the gas tube will fail before the barrel. there's a pic of the cav arms guys holding a rifle with a melted gas tube which proves this. it was from multiple beta dumps.



I wonder if that was just because some gas tubes are poorer quality than others.... because in the military testing... the barrel failed every time.... before the gas tube. One pic from Cav Arms doesnt really "prove" anything.... but it is good data. The .mil testing was done in a controlled environment with the M4 and M16.... and the gas tubes held.

Now here is something a little more interesting... we have two documented gas tube failures on the board:

The cav arms failure occurred on a "shorty" rifle just after 200 rounds from a beta. Treedawgs gas tube failure happened the same way: A few differences here:

1. Both of the above gas tube failures occured on shorty barrels.... like 10.5" barrels. These require a larger gas port in the barrel to run.... so more gas could be moving down those tubes... and the bullet is in the barrel for a shorter amount of time.

2. The beta on FA is dumping 100 round bursts... which will see different temps than the .mil testing, which was from FA bursts... from 30 round mags... with 10 second mag changes.

3. We dont know the source of the shorty gas tubes.... we assume they are from .mil contractors.... but dont know that.


So.... I suppose there are some differences here... I'd like to see someone do several beta dumps on a M16 or M4.... and see if the gas tube suffers in the same way.... but I dont know anyone brave enough to try it!

Cav Arms failure:



.mil failures:

Link Posted: 10/21/2004 9:46:08 AM EST
The way it has been explained to me is that the gas tube will heat and cool slower then the barrel. So when we see barrel failures, it seems to be the full auto sustained fire that does not give the barrel any time to cool, but the tube isn't as hot because it takes longer. Now with our semi's, the barrel will have more time to cool where as the gas tube is cooling slower then the barrel so we will see the tube fail. This might be right, might be wrong, but it sure makes sense and explains why the military tests showed the barrels failing way before the tubes.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 9:51:48 AM EST

Originally Posted By FALARAK:

Originally Posted By inferno715:
the gas tube will fail before the barrel. there's a pic of the cav arms guys holding a rifle with a melted gas tube which proves this. it was from multiple beta dumps.



I wonder if that was just because some gas tubes are poorer quality than others.... because in the military testing... the barrel failed every time.... before the gas tube. One pic from Cav Arms doesnt really "prove" anything.... but it is good data. The .mil testing was done in a controlled environment witht he M4 and M16.... and the gas tubes held.

Now here is something a little more interesting... we have two documented gas tube failures on the board:

The cav arms failure occurred on a "shorty" rifle just after 200 rounds from a beta. Treedawgs gas tube failure happened the same way: A few differences here:

1. Both of the above gas tube failures occured on shorty barrels.... like 10.5" barrels. These require a larger gas port in the barrel to run.... so more gas could be moving down those tubes... and the bullet is in the barrel for a shorter amount of time.

2. The beta on FA is dumping 100 round bursts... which will see different temps than the .mil testing, which was from FA bursts... from 30 round mags... with 10 second mag changes.

3. We dont know the source of the shorty gas tubes.... we assume they are from .mil contractors.... but dont know that.


So.... I suppose there are some differences here... I'd like to see someone do several beta dumps on a M16 or M4.... and see if the gas tube suffers in the same way.... but I dont know anyonw brake enough to try it!

Cav Arms failure:

www.hunt101.com/img/208121-big.jpg

.mil failures:

www.sniperworld.com/ar/ruptured_m4barrel.jpg



I got a funky gas tube in a bunch of parts and now I think I know how it came to be funky. It's longer than a carbine, shorter than a midlength and all black like the melted tube pictured above. Guess I don't need to hang on to that one any more.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 9:53:51 AM EST
The most I have ever dumped thru an AR super fast was one 30rd mag thru a Colt. However, it was Norinco ammo at night thru a 6551 postban, so if you know about that combination is was bright as hell!
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:11:04 AM EST
I've seen movies where they shot about 500 rounds at full auto without stopping...all from one 30rd mag.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:33:39 AM EST
i'm guessing they melt on the shorties because the gas is hotter, that close to the chamber.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:40:19 AM EST
1440 rounds in about 3 hrs, 3*30 = 90 rds at a pop, wait about 10 minutes, repeat.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 10:42:23 AM EST
In the Cav Arms pic, I would say the gas tube heated up, sagged out of position, and got slammed forward by the bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 1:49:42 PM EST
The only time I've ever had a problem when dumping mags in the AR was in a rifle that hadn't been cleaned in a while that jammed halfway through the 13th magazine when a cheap enamel coated Russian case glued itself tightly to the inside of the chamber.
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