Warning

 

Close

Confirm Action

Are you sure you wish to do this?

Confirm Cancel
Member Login

Posted: 3/13/2005 4:48:58 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/13/2005 4:51:58 PM EST by NorWester]
I hit the hills to do a little shooting today and blew my way thru a few hundreds rds of 223. The last mag full was going fine until the 4th to the last rd. Extremely loud and got slapped on the left side of face,neck,and left arm with a good amount of blowback. I looked at my rifle and SOB! Luckily it took the path of least resistance,thru the magazine. Besides the toasted magazine,the mag catch latch was broken off. From what I can tell,the case fed slightly askew and collapsed enough for the bolt to close and fire. I dis-assembled everything everything and all else looks OK. The three remaining rds exited the bottom of the mag and hit the ground hard enough to dent/ding the cases enough that I wouldn't try to fire them. Think I'll go pick some carbon out of my face...And hug my shooting glasses! href=Magazine
Blown Case 1
Case 2
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:50:59 PM EST
Was it a reload?

What is the headstamp?
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:57:56 PM EST
Yep,a reload that I'd worked up to carefully,well under max and I'd shot close to 1000 of. virgin WW brass. If you look closely at the pics you can see where the case is tweaked and collapsed. I'd had feeding problems with that magazine before and have new springs and followers ordered,hoping to fix it. I should have just put it away.Too late!
NW
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:58:17 PM EST
The web area of the brass looks awful strange. What happened?
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 4:58:27 PM EST
It's a little hard to tell from the photos; has the shoulder of that case been pushed forward at all? It really doesn't look like it has. If the shoulder has not moved, that suggests that the case was indeed fully chambered at time of firing, but either the chamber didn't fully support the case head, or the primer was ignited before the bolt could rotate into position.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 5:09:19 PM EST

Originally Posted By BattleRife:
It's a little hard to tell from the photos; has the shoulder of that case been pushed forward at all? It really doesn't look like it has. If the shoulder has not moved, that suggests that the case was indeed fully chambered at time of firing, but either the chamber didn't fully support the case head, or the primer was ignited before the bolt could rotate into position.



If it was a reload, it may have had a high primer and set off before the shell was fully in the chamber.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 5:18:58 PM EST
I suggest you post this is 'troubleshooting' so Tweak and other resident experts are sure to see it.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:48:33 PM EST
whoa
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 7:51:42 PM EST
so this was the thread about me no longer using my mag well as a vfg!
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:21:25 PM EST
Glad to see you didn't get hurt too bad. Alot worse can happen.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 8:29:21 PM EST
Damn! Glad you are OK.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:01:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 9:13:02 PM EST
High primer?
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:07:33 PM EST
I go thru as a last step and check all the primers.As the case came out very easily with pretty much the weight of the rod I know it wasn't an overcharge. I hadn't thought about a low powder detonation. I try to visually inspect each charge but its possible I missed one. It would be quite a coincidence though since I'v never ran across another with a bloop bad enough to cause one. Maybe a faulty case though and it blew/bent the web sideways when it blew? I don't know,but I do know I'm glad I wear shooting glasses! The side of my face is still stinging and I definitly would have had at least one eyefull! Probably would have caused some damage.
Link Posted: 3/13/2005 10:27:03 PM EST
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 1:11:08 AM EST
Did you crimp the bullets in place. I was firing some win white box h.p. the other day. fired one shot, something felt strange. 2nd round never chambered, looked like empty brass in the mag.Dropped the mag , looked through barrel which is clear, and then notived the round had been caught in the mag , pushing the bullet, way up in the casing. only about 1/8 inch sticking out og case. i went to the house and factory crimped the remaining rounds. Maybe what happened with yours.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 2:18:46 AM EST
That blown case looks an awful lot like the primer went BEFORE the case was fully in the chamber. That web-area expansion looks amazingly like the space in the barrel extension where the bolt's locking lugs go. However, the bolt slapping the primer out of battery would not have left an indent on the primer, no would it.

How does the bolt look? Is the firing pin hole still clear and circular? How were you firing when this happened-slow fire or popping them off pretty fast?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 3:37:21 AM EST
It definatley looks like that round somehow fired out of battery.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 6:51:09 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 6:55:48 AM EST by Banzai]

Bad ammo that is what you have experienced, faulty case or one loaded too many times, or a kaboom cause by an undercharge.


Yup. Seeing as it was a reload, could very easily have been a brass issue. The AR pretty much CAN'T fire out of battery, but used/stressed brass can fail in just this specific area, in just this specific manner. The path or least resistance for the hot gasses is definately up the bore behind the bullet, unless there is a problem with the web of the brass, which is arguably the strongest part of the case, seeing as it does not get any direct support either from the bolt or the chamber walls.

How many loads, and how hot, on this lot of brass?

Also, undercharging of powder will detonate(instead of burn progressively) and the cases will look similar. What are your loading/powder charging methods? What kind of equipment do you use? Have a powder check die on a progressive or physically look at each and every case before seating a bullet.

Tom
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 7:13:20 AM EST
Those pictures remind me what happened to my buddy last year. He was training before match with S&B factory ammo and was scared shitless when he had similar KB. Results:







MN
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 7:17:26 AM EST
high primer?

Dont you just love reloads.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 7:23:07 AM EST
this makes me nervous cause I shoot reloads 99% of the time
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 7:27:17 AM EST

Originally Posted By druncuncas:
so this was the thread about me no longer using my mag well as a vfg!


Uh-Huh!
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:01:15 AM EST
I'v realized after I posted this last nite that that mag was one I'd had problems with once before,to the extent that I'd had a couple jams with and the bullet pushed back into the case. I'd put it away and have new springs and followers ordered to see if that'd take care of the problem. I don't know how it ended up in my bag,but evidently I threw it in there. That would explain it though. The pics of the case M4A2 posted looks exactly like mine just ahead of the web.
The ammo was loaded on a 550B with new resized WW brass,visually inspected before seating the bullet and primer heighth checked as a last step. I don't crimp as I'v checked numerous times for setback both in the mag and chambered rds and haven't had a problem. I'm thinking I'll pick up a Lee FCD today though. Wanna bet I might have a flinch for maybe the next 500-600 rds?
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:10:46 AM EST
Although the AR shouldn't be sensitive to this, you might want to use a mil-spec primer if you're not already. The stock AR's got plenty of hammer and spring tension to support this.

I agree that the case appears to have fired out of battery. Did the k-b happen when you pulled the trigger, or was it before you got to pull the trigger? Did you pull the trigger, get a round off and perhaps this happened without your further input on cycling?

Sure looks like the result of a slamfire to me, but... who can say...

Note - if your action somehow had the oomph to crush the case OR if you had a head problem when it chambered, the case volume difference might have been enough to cause a pressure spike - ESP if your bullet took the lands wrong which it may well have.

Thank your AR, too. A lesser arm might have had you in the hospital.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 9:42:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 9:52:17 AM EST by Samuel_Hoggson]
I'm with David. I think it's bad ammo.

Sorry for your misfortune, NorWester. But thanks for posting with pics.

Sam
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:18:37 PM EST
[Last Edit: 3/14/2005 5:27:56 PM EST by red65]

Originally Posted By NorWester:
Yep,a reload that I'd worked up to carefully,well under max and I'd shot close to 1000 of. virgin WW brass. If you look closely at the pics you can see where the case is tweaked and collapsed. I'd had feeding problems with that magazine before and have new springs and followers ordered,hoping to fix it. I should have just put it away.Too late!
NW




Reloads. It's always reloads!

I am a hard core, dyed in the wool reloader, but I won't reload for any autoloader. I had a slam fire with some very carefully prepared M1 carbine reloads and that's the end of that.

Based on all the kabooms that I've read about, it seems that:

1. These guns appear to be firing out of battery.

2. These guns don't tolerate reloads the way a bolt action will.
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:20:02 PM EST

Originally Posted By 50cal:
The web area of the brass looks awful strange. What happened?



50,000 psi makes brass flow like putty
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 4:32:27 PM EST
Great, now you have me scared to start reloading for my AR
Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:35:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By Eli75:
Great, now you have me scared to start reloading for my AR



I don't think it's a matter of being scared, it's a matter of playing the percentages. Over the years, I have seen a lot of these slam fires or whatever they are reported and it seems like a reload is involved 95% of the time.

Also, it seems like most kabooms are autoloaders firing out of battery.

I like reloading, but 223 ammo is cheap enough anyway.


Link Posted: 3/14/2005 5:45:39 PM EST
Yep reloads cause 98% of kabooms. I reload I had it happen it took 10,000 rounds to do it but it happened.

With any sport its not a matter of if, but when you will have a kaboom. sooner or later you will mess up.
Top Top