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Posted: 10/24/2004 7:21:30 PM EST
ok, i really want to put a forward p.g. on my ar.....

what are my options?

i really want an a2 style grip, not one of those bmas ones or whatever. i also want it to be easily taken on or off and cheap. i want to stay away from rails because of cost/looks/weight. Any suggestions / PICS?
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 7:45:32 PM EST
I don't believe there is any A2 style forward grips that can be removed easily unless you use a rail system.
Here's the two closest options that I would suggest.
1. If you're going for ease of removal, perhaps buy an inexpensive GG&G rail for your forearm, and attach a Bushmaster A2 style forward grip.
2. If you don't like the rail idea and would be willing to sacrifice easy removal, then try a barrel mounted A2 style grip.
Link Posted: 10/24/2004 9:21:17 PM EST
i forgot to add that i really want it to be mounted to the handguards and not teh barrel....

the reason is because i want the pistol grip back by teh mag well where it is comfortable for me....

i usually use the front of teh magwell as a holding point on my carbine ar's when i go to shooting comps, and i figured it was about time to actually get a real grip
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 4:24:58 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 5:46:46 AM EST
ARMS make a QD forward pistol grip that uses the A2 type grip and it is also reversible to an AKM style wich I like very much.
Jack
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 5:58:55 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:06:13 AM EST
A lot of people in combat want a QD grip, because if they get hung up in brush or something, they can release in a hurry. I know for a fact that Shurefire supply a lot of the ARMS throw levers to military contracts that specify those levers on that light, by the thousands.
Jack
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:17:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:37:01 AM EST
Par Rogers probably doesn't make any money from ARMS military issue items, but probably does from certain other things he does recomend. I think that the military know a slight more than patty.LOL
Jack
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:46:19 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:06:31 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
... but probably does from certain other things he does recomend. ...



That is a blatent slander Jack. Making up things about respected individuals with ZERO evidence is something I expect of Democrats and politicians in general.

You should remove that comment and apologize to the man in question.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:13:05 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 7:29:47 AM EST by Forest]

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
It is really hard to mount a VG onto standard HG's. You have very limited options. You also mention that you don't want a railed forend because of the weight. I just thought I would let you know that standard HG and Delta Rings are around 7 ounces. The Daniel Defense FF rails systems is around 8.9 ounces.



I don't mean to contradict my man Grant, however. As a SYSTEM (handguards, barrel nut, endcap etc). The standard rifle handguards weight 11.5 oz, the DD 12.0 is 13.1 oz. The Daniels Defense only adds 1.6oz.

With the carbine its 7.5oz for the CAR handguards, and 8.5 for the DD7.0 only 1oz gain. (BTW the M4 handguards weight 8.9 oz...).

Making the Daniels Defense the best choice for one looking to keep weight down.


i really want an a2 style grip, not one of those bmas ones or whatever. i also want it to be easily taken on or off and cheap.

While possible, it's not recommended (they won't take any punishment) Buy the GG&G UFIR or the Cav-Arms scout rail to attach to the bottom of the handguard.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:19:29 AM EST
On the contrary, Pat seems to come up with things that the military obviously do not agree with, because the US military buy ARMS products that he doesn't like. Pat seems to think he can attack companys at will, and without anyone that disagree's should not respond. He has never designed or produced a thing in his life, so why is he an expert? He is just another gun writer, but he also seems to make up things that are very questionable, by many people. I'm not hidding anything, but I do give easily verifiable facts, and he doesn't.
Jack
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:20:07 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
Par Rogers probably doesn't make any money from ARMS military issue items, but probably does from certain other things he does recomend. I think that the military know a slight more than patty.LOL
Jack



and the downward spiral continues...
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:28:03 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 7:28:17 AM EST by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:29:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
On the contrary, Pat seems to come up with things that the military obviously do not agree with, because the US military buy ARMS products that he doesn't like.


The military also seems to like those 'silent slings' but I'd hardly say they were the best would you?

However if you look at what the 'high speed' units buy and what their soldiers will buy with their own money.



Pat seems to think he can attack companys at will, and without anyone that disagree's should not respond.


Of course he can 'attack' any product - it's called CRITISCISM - it's the type of feedback manufacturers should be listening to. It helps improve the product for the needs of the user/purchaser. BTW where has he ever posted you shouldn't respond - libelous statements (such as you have made) are never welcome - but statements backed by hard data are never frowned upon.



He has never designed or produced a thing in his life,


I know this isn't true because I have a product in my 'gear box' that he did have a part in designing.



so why is he an expert?


Because he's a BTDT kind of guy, who routinely works with the guys 'at the tip of the spear'.


He is just another gun writer,

Ah yes one of the most experienced carbine trainers, a guy who teaches Force Recon Marines how to fight with carbines, a Marine with combat experience, and a former member of NYPD's SBU.

Yeah he's just another 'Gun Writer' with no practical experience.

We know his credentials to comment on a product - what are yours?
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:39:09 AM EST

Originally Posted By grandnational007:
i really want an a2 style grip, not one of those bmas ones or whatever. i also want it to be easily taken on or off and cheap. i want to stay away from rails because of cost/looks/weight. Any suggestions / PICS?



Your options are mutually exclusive.

Decide which is more important.
A2 Grip
Cost
Ease of Attachement.


The easiest method would be to add the GG&G UFIR (or similar rail) to the lower handguard and add the ARMS pistol grip.

Assuming this is a rnage gun not a duty gun --> Failing the above suggestion get an extra handguard and screw a A2 grip into it - then change lower handguard when you want to.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:40:29 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
On the contrary, Pat seems to come up with things that the military obviously do not agree with, because the US military buy ARMS products that he doesn't like. Pat seems to think he can attack companys at will, and without anyone that disagree's should not respond. He has never designed or produced a thing in his life, so why is he an expert? He is just another gun writer, but he also seems to make up things that are very questionable, by many people. I'm not hidding anything, but I do give easily verifiable facts, and he doesn't.
Jack



Of all the moronic statements 3rdtk has made over the past few years, this one takes the cake.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:40:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 7:46:20 AM EST by C4iGrant]
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:05:02 AM EST
I don't give a darn what product Jack pushes - if he likes somthing and want to tell us all about it's benefits that's just peachy. I often enjoy his posts.

However when Jacks makes innuendo and slanderous statemetns that Pi$$es me off and has NO place in a discussion of any product.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:06:11 AM EST

i usually use the front of teh magwell as a holding point on my carbine ar's when i go to shooting comps, and i figured it was about time to actually get a real grip


What problem are you having w/ the magwell grip that a VFG will be a solution for? (No, this is not a rhetorical question.)
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 8:14:39 AM EST

Originally Posted By ChuckJaxFL:
What problem are you having w/ the magwell grip that a VFG will be a solution for? (No, this is not a rhetorical question.)



I don't know about the orginal posted but I found 3 issues.

3) Comfort - the VFG is more comfortable as I can get my hand around it.

2) Light Operation - from a VFG I can operate my light with my thumb and I don't need the wires of the pressure switch.

1) HEAT. Fire enought rounds and even the magazine well gets pretty hot. This is never an issue with a Polymere VFG.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 9:04:09 AM EST

but probably does from certain other things he does recomend


Do you have ANY proof of that whatsoever? No? I didn't think so.

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 11:00:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 11:16:18 AM EST


What problem are you having w/ the magwell grip that a VFG will be a solution for? (No, this is not a rhetorical question.)

i just want something thats really sturdy and a little forward of the mag well....

the arms #23 seems to be my solution tho
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 11:20:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By grandnational007:
i just want something thats really sturdy and a little forward of the mag well....

the arms #23 seems to be my solution tho



Not unless you mount a rail system
- for none of the handguard rail attachments will be solid. You will need a good quality rail system it you want this...

Link Posted: 10/25/2004 12:11:27 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 1:42:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/2/2004 10:15:17 AM EST by mcgrubbs]

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
On the contrary, Pat seems to come up with things that the military obviously do not agree with, because the US military buy ARMS products that he doesn't like. Pat seems to think he can attack companys at will, and without anyone that disagree's should not respond. He has never designed or produced a thing in his life, so why is he an expert? He is just another gun writer, but he also seems to make up things that are very questionable, by many people. I'm not hidding anything, but I do give easily verifiable facts, and he doesn't.
Jack



You're a disgusting, lying POS, Dick/Jack.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 1:48:37 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 3:05:26 PM EST
What the heck does a VFG mount have to do with Optics!! (sorry guys.. somebody had to)
As to Pat Rogers. I had the honor to take his class and hang with him and learrn some great shit. He's a Marine so he don't need this Dog face to defend him. Jack, when you start teaching something firearms related...let me know. I'll be the first to sign up
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 3:32:20 PM EST
3rdtk is full of chit and a
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 3:45:56 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/25/2004 3:46:49 PM EST by AKM]

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
On the contrary, Pat seems to come up with things that the military obviously do not agree with, because the US military buy ARMS products that he doesn't like. Pat seems to think he can attack companys at will, and without anyone that disagree's should not respond. He has never designed or produced a thing in his life, so why is he an expert? He is just another gun writer, but he also seems to make up things that are very questionable, by many people. I'm not hidding anything, but I do give easily verifiable facts, and he doesn't.
Jack



Oh yes, rants of a desperate man!

What’s wrong Jack/Dick, can't handle the fact that ARMS products are becoming passé and ARMS is loosing the lions share of the market?
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 4:28:59 PM EST
WELL THEN SIRS, THANKS FOR STEALING MY TOPIC TO HAVE A FLAME WAR OVER RAIL SYSTEMS OR WHATEVER........TALK ABOUT FUCKING GEEKS

anyways......

all i am looking for, is a forward pistol grip, preferably styled like a factory a2 grip, that could easily and inexpensively be mounted to my handguards right in front of the magwell.....

so, does anyone have ideas/suggestions or maybe even some pics of what they have?
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 4:33:32 PM EST
Well... you could start by posting this in the Slings and acccessories forum instead of Optics and start reading . a lot of good info ya lazy ass!!!
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 5:07:22 PM EST

Originally Posted By grandnational007:
all i am looking for, is a forward pistol grip, preferably styled like a factory a2 grip, that could easily and inexpensively be mounted to my handguards right in front of the magwell.....


Define 'inexpensively' as the A2 type foreward grip Bushy sells is $40 plus add in another $40 or so for a add-on rail (which will not have any real strength).



so, does anyone have ideas/suggestions or maybe even some pics of what they have?



Several of us have made suggestions - it's up to you to read them.

Pics of what they have? We run railed handguards because we want them to work all the time. (Yes I've tried the cheaper solutions - they are cheaper for a reason).
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 5:11:08 PM EST

Originally Posted By grandnational007:
all i am looking for, is a forward pistol grip, preferably styled like a factory a2 grip, that could easily and inexpensively be mounted to my handguards right in front of the magwell.....

so, does anyone have ideas/suggestions or maybe even some pics of what they have?



You can lead a horse...


I gave you a few options and my recommendations for what you wanted as did others.
It is your money...

Honestly I think you will be happier buying a RAS or FF rail and a handle - best bet go to a few shops and look at what they have - better yet go to a AR friendly range and see what the shooters their have.

-Kevin



Link Posted: 10/25/2004 5:42:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
grandnational007, I would think long and hard about going with the VG that 3rdtk mentioned. I don't believe that the throw lever is strong enough to withstand a lot of pressure (muzzle strikes and such). On another forum, a guy asked a question about the SureFire M900A being suitable for combat applications. A SureFire Military sales rep responded by saying yest the M900A is suitable, but would recommend going with the M910A model as it has two thumb screws and is more up to the task...



C4





Lets see, the man asked about somone that makes a forward A2 pistol grip, I respond that ARMS does and that I like it bacwards in the forward AKM position.
THEN chimes in the above promoter of other things with a negative BS on anything ARMS makes, this time a pistol grip that fits the bill of the question the man asked. To give himself support, he leads everyone to another forum that has a buddy of his trashing with more BS, and not even related to the pistol grip question we start with. Mc grubs and VA Dinger, are just as bad as C4Grant in not being able to stand the facts, and just can't stay away from attacking anyone that has somthing to say that they don't like. 3rdtk have never started a thread on this sight or any other, period, only an honest response to a quetion. However C4 has started one after another to promote any product he sells. There are many many many 3rdtk responses that have nothing to do with ARMS products, but these less than objective folks won't list those, but can if they want to. I'd say that they are the lieing POS!!!!!!!!
Jack
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:15:11 PM EST

Originally Posted By Forest:
[



He has never designed or produced a thing in his life,


I know this isn't true because I have a product in my 'gear box' that he did have a part in designing.




Ok, I just went to search on that Patent office web. and guess what, no Patents listing PATS name on anything ever Patented. I guess the mysterious valuble thing in your gear box must still be a secret. I'm sure we would all run out and buy it sinces he designed it. I give facts that are verifiable, and some others continue to make up more BS.
If you certain few don't like somone elses views on a question, recomend a viable alternative, not instagating a response to your BS.
Jack
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:49:51 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
[Ok, I just went to search on that Patent office web. and guess what, no Patents listing PATS name on anything ever Patented.


Note every product produced is patented - just ask Eagle Blackhawk rips off their stuff all the time.


I guess the mysterious valuble thing in your gear box must still be a secret
.
Nope, but you have to go to an Eagle dealer to buy it. Funny thing is I didn't even know Pat was involved with the mag pouch until I went to a class and they asked me if I bought it because it was Pat's design.

If you certain few don't like somone elses views on a question, recomend a viable alternative, Viable alternatives were recomended - and done so without trying to soil anyone's reputation.

Mud slinging is not facts.
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 6:54:55 PM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
Ok, I just went to search on that Patent office web. and guess what, no Patents listing PATS name on anything ever Patented. I guess the mysterious valuble thing in your gear box must still be a secret. I'm sure we would all run out and buy it sinces he designed it. I give facts that are verifiable, and some others continue to make up more BS.
If you certain few don't like somone elses views on a question, recomend a viable alternative, not instagating a response to your BS.
Jack



What the fuck have you invented, besides a lot of hot air on the internet???
Link Posted: 10/25/2004 7:54:43 PM EST

and just can't stay away from attacking anyone that has somthing to say that they don't like


Umm, how about YOU staying away from attacking Pat because he says things that YOU don't like
about ARMS products? Nope, no double standard there......

Pot...meet Kettle! Kettle....meet POT.....

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 3:21:09 AM EST
3rdtk,

If you need something to fill up your spare time, I hear that Tereza Heinz Kerry needs a spokesman. I think you would be a good fit with her style.
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 3:38:26 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 4:44:24 AM EST

Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
Par Rogers probably doesn't make any money from ARMS military issue items, but probably does from certain other things he does recomend. I think that the military know a slight more than patty.LOL
Jack



Are these the 'verifiable facts' of which you speak? Please provide any proof that you have regarding Pat Rogers' alledged kickbacks from gear makers for his endorsements.

I don't give a rip if you're a big fan of ARMS products and endorse them for any and all applications. What I find intolerable is the baseless, slanderous accusations leveled against a respected member of the firearms training community. Pat Rogers has forgotten more about using tactical equipment than you will ever know in your miserable, vile little life.

Your rock is calling. Go get back under it, loser.

Link Posted: 10/26/2004 4:49:41 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 4:52:48 AM EST by JLM]

What I find intolerable is the baseless, slanderous accusations leveled against a respected member of the firearms training community. Pat Rogers has forgotten more about using tactical equipment than you will ever know in your miserable, vile little life.

Your rock is calling. Go get back under it, loser.



Well now: I think that gets a ? +10?


There are many many many 3rdtk responses that have nothing to do with ARMS products


Umm, why are you referring to YOURSELF in the third person, Jack? I'm sure I'm not the only one that noticed that. Is it perhaps because '3rdtk' is in fact a community account used by multiple person, and you made a Freudian slip on us? Or, Multiple Personality Disorder maybe?

Just so you don't dick it up the future you SHOULD say "There are many many many response from ME
that have nothing to do with ARMS products". Hope that helps
Link Posted: 10/26/2004 5:20:01 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/26/2004 5:20:31 AM EST by KevinB]
We know the 3rdtk society has more than one member and they (at least one of them) has admitted this in the past...

Link Posted: 10/28/2004 6:01:18 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 7:54:41 AM EST
I have the tdi avg it has heavy finger grooves and is well made,I love it.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:05:16 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lightfighter:

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
Incase you hadn't noticed, I am a paying dealer on this board. This means that I can post on new gear (that I sell or don't sell). When you retire, you can get that job with ARMS and then you can FORMALLY post on here about the all virtues of ARMS products as an official rep for them!

You don't know a thing about what you are talking about. 3rdTk is not who you think they are and your insuations about the most honorable man in the military are getting tiresome. I thought you and I already had this conversation.



Check your PM over at LF, please.
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:24:16 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/28/2004 8:38:04 AM EST
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