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1/22/2020 12:12:56 PM
Posted: 9/17/2009 5:01:41 AM EST
well got the dpms sportical. shoots well. friends say i "need a forward assist" .

how many of you actually use it?

just mounted a weaver k2.5 steel tube. gonna zero it today. it will stay on it til i can get the 1-3x20mm to replace it. then it will go on my ruger 10/22.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 5:12:36 AM EST
Never been in a situation where I needed to use mine. I shoot wolf though and its needed a little push maybe once. It’s more for aesthetics or SHTF for me. I personally would care less if it were on my next gun or not.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 5:17:43 AM EST
I use it all the time. Whenever I check to see if my weapon is loaded by pulling back the charging handle a little bit I always need it to ride the bolt back forward usually.

I
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 6:02:46 AM EST
Eugene Stoner stated in the Congressional Hearings that it was NOT needed! Pat Rogers covered this pretty thoroughly in one of his articles in S.W.A.T. Magazine, he basically stated. DON'T use it, DON'T touch it, EVER!

I don't even have a Forward "Jammer" on my duty rifle:



PursuitSS
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 6:10:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By greg9mm:
well got the dpms sportical. shoots well. friends say i "need a forward assist" .

how many of you actually use it?

just mounted a weaver k2.5 steel tube. gonna zero it today. it will stay on it til i can get the 1-3x20mm to replace it. then it will go on my ruger 10/22.


Nahhh... don't worry about, keep it clean and you will be fine!

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:02:40 AM EST
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Eugene Stoner stated in the Congressional Hearings that it was NOT needed! Pat Rogers covered this pretty thoroughly in one of his articles in S.W.A.T. Magazine, he basically stated. DON'T use it, DON'T touch it, EVER!

I don't even have a Forward "Jammer" on my duty rifle:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/PursuitSS/Dutycarbine007.jpg

PursuitSS


Say Pursuit, what upper is that?

Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:24:33 AM EST
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:36:07 AM EST
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:42:28 AM EST
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...


Fine and dandy unless you've already got quite a few rounds through your rifle, which is usually when you will actually need the forward assist.

I've needed it a handful of times, but that was to chamber rounds in a pretty dirty rifle - probably half a dozen times since I first shot an M16 in 1992. The Army called for the FA to be added to the M16 in the mid 1960s, but the USAF never really bothered until they started using M4s and M16A2s. I'd rather have one than not, but I don't think it's really that necessary.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:53:22 AM EST
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Pat Rogers covered this pretty thoroughly in one of his articles in S.W.A.T. Magazine, he basically stated. DON'T use it, DON'T touch it, EVER!


Now I know it's a GOOD feature. I use mine all the time for various reasons.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 7:57:48 AM EST
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...


Fine and dandy unless you've already got quite a few rounds through your rifle, which is usually when you will actually need the forward assist.

I've needed it a handful of times, but that was to chamber rounds in a pretty dirty rifle - probably half a dozen times since I first shot an M16 in 1992. The Army called for the FA to be added to the M16 in the mid 1960s, but the USAF never really bothered until they started using M4s and M16A2s. I'd rather have one than not, but I don't think it's really that necessary.


A.) 1964.

B.) You are telling me the Air Force didn't order any new rifles from ~1970 to the adoption of the M16A2 in 1983? No, their first rifle with a forward assist were M16A1s.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:00:07 AM EST
Next time at the range, dump a thirty mag and then touch the carrier. I've found that if you feel any heat at all, it ain't much.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:20:33 AM EST
I've never found the need for it myself.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:41:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 8:50:05 AM EST by jtb0311]
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...


Fine and dandy unless you've already got quite a few rounds through your rifle, which is usually when you will actually need the forward assist.

I've needed it a handful of times, but that was to chamber rounds in a pretty dirty rifle - probably half a dozen times since I first shot an M16 in 1992. The Army called for the FA to be added to the M16 in the mid 1960s, but the USAF never really bothered until they started using M4s and M16A2s. I'd rather have one than not, but I don't think it's really that necessary.


A.) 1964.

B.) You are telling me the Air Force didn't order any new rifles from ~1970 to the adoption of the M16A2 in 1983? No, their first rifle with a forward assist were M16A1s.


I'm sure the USAF ordered plenty of rifles, just not the M16A1/Colt Model 603. They stuck with the M16/Colt Model 604, which had no forward assist, long after the Army and USMC thought the FA was necessary. Same thing with Carbines (even today you can still see old school looking carbines with no FA from time to time); this is also why pictures of the Son Tay Raiders in 1970 show them with carbines that lack the FA - they were using GAU-5A/Colt Model 649 issued by the USAF, rather than the XM-177E2/Colt Model 629.

There's your retro trivia for the day.

You can learn more about these fascinating variations in the AR family in the retro section of this forum and at www.retroblackrifle.com. On that site I'd encourage you to look at "In the Field" from the 1990s and the "USAF" section. There are numerous examples of rifles and carbines, even into very recent years, that don't have the FA.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:45:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By hdbiker1:
Next time at the range, dump a thirty mag and then touch the carrier. I've found that if you feel any heat at all, it ain't much.


I don't think it's likely for 30 rounds to make a rifle dirty enough for the FA to be necessary either. My own experience is more like a couple of hundred rounds in a few minutes in a rifle that was already somewhat dirty. It gets dirtier, the metal expands, smoke is coming out from under the hand guard - that's when I'm less inclined to touch the BC.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:52:49 AM EST
Originally Posted By markm:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Pat Rogers covered this pretty thoroughly in one of his articles in S.W.A.T. Magazine, he basically stated. DON'T use it, DON'T touch it, EVER!


Now I know it's a GOOD feature. I use mine all the time for various reasons.


SO, you've observed more rounds go downrange than Pat Rogers? This is a quote from Pat Rogers posted 11/10/08: "I get to see a LOT of rounds downrange in a year- over 653,000 in 08 so far."

Another Pat Rogers quote: "We shoot a lot. We go through several uppers a year.

I have watched a lot of nonsense about how many rounds people allege they have shot, but i am critical of errornet boasts as to how much they shoot, and how they shoot.
We keep gun books. We know what we put downrange."


PursuitSS
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:56:04 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 8:58:51 AM EST by 45FMJoe]
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...


Fine and dandy unless you've already got quite a few rounds through your rifle, which is usually when you will actually need the forward assist.

I've needed it a handful of times, but that was to chamber rounds in a pretty dirty rifle - probably half a dozen times since I first shot an M16 in 1992. The Army called for the FA to be added to the M16 in the mid 1960s, but the USAF never really bothered until they started using M4s and M16A2s. I'd rather have one than not, but I don't think it's really that necessary.


A.) 1964.

B.) You are telling me the Air Force didn't order any new rifles from ~1970 to the adoption of the M16A2 in 1983? No, their first rifle with a forward assist were M16A1s.


I'm sure the USAF ordered plenty of rifles, just not the M16A1/Colt Model 603. They stuck with the M16/Colt Model 604, which had no forward assist, long after the Army and USMC thought the FA was necessary. Same thing with Carbines (even today you can still see old school looking carbines with no FA from time to time); this is also why pictures of the Son Tay Raiders in 1970 show them with carbines that lack the FA - they were using GAU-5A/Colt Model 649 issued by the USAF, rather than the XM-177E2/Colt Model 629.

There's your retro trivia for the day.

You can learn more about these fascinating variations in the AR family in the retro section of this forum and at www.retroblackrifle.com. On that site I'd encourage you to look at "In the Field" from the 1990s and the "USAF" section. There are numerous examples of rifles and carbines, even into very recent years, that don't have the FA.


If you follow your advice you will know that there are no 604s known with serial numbers that surpass about 1970 or so.

I'm very big into retro black rifles, have been for years.

ETA -


4,521,001-4,521,850
1970
US Air Force M16 Colt Model 604.

...

5,000,000-5,4X,XXX (app)
1973-1982
US Property marked M16A1 Colt's Model 603 (not aware of any Air Force M16 Colt Model 604's with serial numbers this high). Also some export/commercial models.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 8:59:23 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 9:04:46 AM EST by jtb0311]
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:

If you follow your advice you will know that there are no 604s known with serial numbers that surpass about 1970 or so.


Likely because the USAF has been rebuilding rifles around those uppers since then. Go check out the retro site, it's got a lot of good info and a lot of pics that illustrate what I'm talking about.

Have a good one.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:00:41 AM EST
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:

If you follow your advice you will know that there are no 604s known with serial numbers that surpass about 1970 or so.


Likely because the USAF has been rebuilding rifles around those lowers since then. Go check out the retro site, it's got a lot of good info and a lot of pics that illustrate what I'm talking about.

Have a good one.


You just contradicted yourself.

And yes, I'm very familiar with retroblackrifle.com.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:03:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 9:42:46 AM EST by jtb0311]
Whatever, you win. My whole point was that the USAF never seemed too concerned about whether a rifle or carbine did or didn't have an FA, as evidenced by the fact that some are still in use. They probably did buy A1s if that's all that Colt continued to produce - I have no idea. Maybe someone else will look at that site and learn something.

Have a good one.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:08:42 AM EST
Lighten up, Francis.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:12:29 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 9:15:19 AM EST by SIPCAT-C]
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...


I've had to do that w/ an A1 before.
Not as quick and easy, but easy enough to solve the problem.


EDIT: The two above me should get married.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:13:18 AM EST
I know for a fact that the AF had A1s. I got to use a few of them. They should all be upgraded to A2s by now, but possible that a few are still floating around in A1 configuration. I joined the AF in '99. While going through basic and tech school several of the rifles that I got for FTXs were A1s. Had an M16 or two thrown in to the mix as well. A few frankenguns here and there as well. Very few A2s being used for that purpose. The rifles we actually shot were all A2s though. When I got to my first duty station, some of the other units still had M16s and A1s in inventory. Those ended up getting upgraded to A2 configuration around '03.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:17:01 AM EST
Originally Posted By SIPCAT-C:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...


I've had to do that w/ an A1 before.
Not as quick and easy, but easy enough to solve the problem.


EDIT: The two above me should get married.


Plus, using that procedure, you can't force the round hard enough to hopelessly jam the weapon
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:18:24 AM EST
Originally Posted By hdbiker1:
Originally Posted By PursuitSS:
Eugene Stoner stated in the Congressional Hearings that it was NOT needed! Pat Rogers covered this pretty thoroughly in one of his articles in S.W.A.T. Magazine, he basically stated. DON'T use it, DON'T touch it, EVER!

I don't even have a Forward "Jammer" on my duty rifle:

http://i135.photobucket.com/albums/q125/PursuitSS/Dutycarbine007.jpg

PursuitSS


Say Pursuit, what upper is that?



Rock River Arms 9mm drilled for a gas tube.

PursuitSS
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 9:45:18 AM EST
In the USMC in the 1990s we were taught to thump the FA a couple of times every time you chambered a round. Not necessary, but something I still do from time to time.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:30:14 AM EST
I don't care what Eugene Stoner or Pat Rogers say, the forward assist is necessary. Eugene Stoner has never used one of his rifles in the field and Pat Rogers puts 600,000 rounds through non abused well maintained rifles with clean ammo. The forward assist wouldn't have been invented if there wasn't a use for it. I wouldn't mind owning and shooting a 601, 602, or 607 with slab side uppers, but I wouldn't choose one of those over a 603 or XM177E1/E2.
Dustin
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 10:48:26 AM EST
[Last Edit: 9/17/2009 10:48:44 AM EST by Yojimbo]
I rarely use the FA but I do on occasion. Not for malfunctions but rather for admininstrative manipulations such as after doing a press check where I slightly retract the bolt. After letting the bolt forward again I tap the FA to make sure it is fully seated.

BTW, I also know how to do a status check without retracting the bolt but sometimes I prefer a tactile check at times when I do not want to remove the mag. Yes, I also know how to use the ejection port notch on the carrier to manually push the carrier foward but for me the FA is simpler to use.

I know on a properly maintained weapon hitting the FA after retracting the bolt to do tactile check isn't really necessary but doesn't hurt anything either.

I can only speak for myself but would I rather have a FA then not...
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:00:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By pezboytate:
I don't care what Eugene Stoner or Pat Rogers say, the forward assist is necessary. Eugene Stoner has never used one of his rifles in the field and Pat Rogers puts 600,000 rounds through non abused well maintained rifles with clean ammo. The forward assist wouldn't have been invented if there wasn't a use for it. I wouldn't mind owning and shooting a 601, 602, or 607 with slab side uppers, but I wouldn't choose one of those over a 603 or XM177E1/E2.
Dustin






Wow, just ... wow. Congratulations on the dumbest post I've read all day.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:47:26 AM EST
I tap mine after mag changes, that said I am deathly afraid of firing out of battery
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 11:58:44 AM EST
I know Pat Rogers is a very well respected gent in the firearms world.

But...

I was taught to use the FA when I was in the USMC and actually NEEDED to use it once.

Somolia.
The fine sand over there got into everything and I had to use my FA to get my M16A2 to chamber a round and fire because of it.

Of course, that is the only time I've actually needed to use it and I only fired about 40 rounds afterwards so it doesn't really compare to the hundreds of thousands of rounds that Pat seeses every year.

But they sure were Important rounds to me!

I won't own an AR-15 series rifle without one.



Link Posted: 9/17/2009 12:02:37 PM EST
I know that alot of people don't think you need a forward assist, I was one of those guys before I went to Iraq.

What changed my mind was an experience with my issued m16a4. The main spring in the rifle got a little week. Rounds cycled just fine while shooting, but when loading a full 30 rd magazine from bolt lock or when slingshotting the first round from a full magazine the rifle would fail to go completely in to battery by about 1/8th of an inch. Thankfully I was on the range and not in a firefight at the time. I noticed the failure to go into battery and used the forward assist to close the bolt. For the rest of the range trip the rifle would do this every time I changed mags from slidelock.

Using 28rds in a mag corrects the problem, or swapping the main spring for a new one.

I decided that for me, a go to rifle has to have a forward assist.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:33:27 PM EST
Originally Posted By jtb0311:
Originally Posted By 45FMJoe:
Originally Posted By ljh824:
You wont need it, until you need it unfortunately. I've had dirt and debrit in my rifle a few times, and the F/A helped out. Personally, I'd rather have it there and never use it, then need it and not have it.


You know that kinda dished out section of the bolt carrier that is exposed when the port door is open? Amazingly your thumb fits perfectly into it...


Fine and dandy unless you've already got quite a few rounds through your rifle, which is usually when you will actually need the forward assist.

I've needed it a handful of times, but that was to chamber rounds in a pretty dirty rifle - probably half a dozen times since I first shot an M16 in 1992. The Army called for the FA to be added to the M16 in the mid 1960s, but the USAF never really bothered until they started using M4s and M16A2s. I'd rather have one than not, but I don't think it's really that necessary.


Exactly, and after my second firefight in Desert Storm, I'm more concerned with putting rounds downrange than sticking my thumb in the bolt carrier.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 3:52:11 PM EST
The forward assist was put there for a reason. IF your rifle fails to go into battery after cycling, you can USE THE FORWARD ASSIST to get it into battery.

While most civilian/range applications don't "need" a forward assist because any failure to go into battery that would be fixed with the forward assist could be dealt with by breaking the weapon down and doing some cleaning.

But if you are in a SHTF situation and don't have the luxury of the time needed to do that, you can always slam the forward assist with the palm of you hand and fire off another, potentially life-saving, round.

Have I ever used it? Yes. But only while firing blanks. Those ugly, dirty bastards really mess up your rifle and they are so weak that you are lucky if you can even eject rounds - let alone fully seat the next round.
Link Posted: 9/17/2009 5:59:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By tnolley:
But if you are in a SHTF situation and don't have the luxury of the time needed to do that, you can always slam the forward assist with the palm of you hand and fire off another, potentially life-saving, round.



My carbine DOES go into "SHTF situations", if I have a round fail to chamber I'll either actuate the charging handle or let it drop on the sling and transition to my Glock 34!

PursuitSS
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