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9/19/2017 7:27:10 PM
Posted: 4/30/2003 4:22:34 PM EDT
I am looking for a vertical grip to attach to ARMS #45. There are quite a few on the market such as ACE, Fobus, CQD and KAC. The price is from $35 - $99. Do they make any difference?

thanks.

Link Posted: 4/30/2003 7:54:46 PM EDT
how about a Surefire M900... [img]http://www.san.surefire.com/surefire/content/m900a_full.jpg[/img] [img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid55/pdd6bd9b959d289dddc9d0c08de8e6174/fc7c4e91.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 8:27:09 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/30/2003 8:29:43 PM EDT by Paul]
Read Jim Crews' book "Some of the Answer, Urban Carbine" a technique and tactics manual for the Colt carbine. Another good read is "Leather Sling and Shooting Positions" by M/Sgt James R. Owens USMC (ret.). Crews states "Applying pressure to the handguard with the support hand moves the rifle off target." and "The support hand should not grip the hand guard. Gripping of the hand guard with the support hand causes the muzzle to be forced into a specific location as well as tranmit the pulse beat of the heart to the rifle." He's talking tactical shooting here - not match shooting. The support hand if holding the rifle tightly will cause the rifle to move either with each shot in a flinch or in a counter-recoil trying to pull the barrel downwards too early. When I see shooters with vertically strung shots I watch their breathing and their support hand. There are times when you want to have the ability to lay any part of the handguard against cover/concealment - the bottom certainly and sometimes the sides. Deside if you really want to give up tactics and accuracy for comfort and coolness. Yes, they do make a big difference. Edited to add this ugly piece of shit! [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/IG_LoadImage.asp?iImageUnq=127[/img]
Link Posted: 4/30/2003 10:12:39 PM EDT
I think one major difference between grips is the material that they're made of, which is either going to be a polymer of some sort, or aluminum alloy. The alloy grips will get you that maximum durability, with the negative of some amount of weight increase. Beyond that you have the real departure in the standard vertical foregrips, the Dieter model with its integral wire and pressure pads reliefs. This thread is all about it: [url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=20&t=156876[/url] You already have the big part of the project, the rail system, which is the beauty of the quality systems, especially the SIR .... if you get a grip and DON'T like it or it doesn't work for you, you take a second or two and TAKE IT OFF. Can't get any less painless then that! Chris
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 5:53:49 PM EDT
I like the new GG&G vertical foregrip ([url=http://www.gggaz.com/products/vertforegrip.php]here[/url]). Still more battery storage goodness!
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 7:16:12 PM EDT
I like the ARMS forgrip, because I can attach/detatch quikly and also mount it tilted foward or rearward. It is also easier to tell which direction to weapon is pointed in the dark, which is not as easy to do accurately with a round grip. Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 8:15:43 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: Read Jim Crews' book "Some of the Answer, Urban Carbine." Crews states "Applying pressure to the handguard with the support hand moves the rifle off target." and "The support hand should not grip the hand guard."
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No disrespect Paul, but under the stress of fight or flight reflex, when the time comes to put rounds down range to save my bacon or someone else RIGHT NOW...I can almost guarantee I'll be squeezing the shit out of whatever part of the gun Im holding on to. That nice, neat "Im on the range," forearm resting on an open hand target stuff is going to go right out the door during a life or death fight. Tight holding the verticle foregrip, or magazine well is the only way to effectively control full auto and FAST semi-auto fire.
Link Posted: 5/1/2003 11:49:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: I like the ARMS forgrip, because I can attach/detatch quikly and also mount it tilted foward or rearward. It is also easier to tell which direction to weapon is pointed in the dark, which is not as easy to do accurately with a round grip. Good shootin, Jack
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You like the ARMS grip? Really? I would have never guessed... Oh thats right, you dont like telling directions from a donkeys round dick and ass. LMAO!
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 12:13:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By 3rdtk: It is also easier to tell which direction to weapon is pointed in the dark, which is not as easy to do accurately with a round grip.
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[shock] Ok, now thats stretchin it...
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 2:23:40 AM EDT
It never occured to me, 3rdtk has a point re: directional grip vs. rounded grip in the dark, totally makes sense. If any one of you had the misfortune of having to spend time on early iMacs, G3 or G4 you'd remember the hated round mouse. Hard to tell which way is which, the bar shaped mouse don't have that problem, your hand instantly knows its orientation. While I like the round grip simply because it's more comfortable, someone should probably address this minor issue.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 7:29:26 AM EDT
The rear pistol grip determines the direction of action, the front is for control of that action.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 8:24:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/2/2003 8:26:09 AM EDT by SMGLee]
Originally Posted By notack: The rear pistol grip determines the direction of action, the front is for control of that action.
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I tend to agree on this point. rear grip controls the direction of the gun. I use the front grip to guide the gun, but I always know where the gun is pointed because I have both hand on the gun and the feel of the rear grip tells me i ma holding my gun pointed forward. [:)] 3rdtk makes a good point, but I think a round grip is just fine. I personally prefer the Surefire M900a, it is not exactly round so this will also work fine with 3rdtk's theory.
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 9:12:11 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Paul: ...Crews states "Applying pressure to the handguard with the support hand moves the rifle off target." and "The support hand should not grip the hand guard. Gripping of the hand guard with the support hand causes the muzzle to be forced into a specific location as well as tranmit the pulse beat of the heart to the rifle." He's talking tactical shooting here - not match shooting. The support hand if holding the rifle tightly will cause the rifle to move either with each shot in a flinch or in a counter-recoil trying to pull the barrel downwards too early. When I see shooters with vertically strung shots I watch their breathing and their support hand.
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IMHO, this is exactly why they make free floating handguards and RAS systems. [:D]
Link Posted: 5/2/2003 1:00:30 PM EDT
Help me out here, Im SERIOUSLY trying to work out the scenario in my head where I reach for my rifle and grab it by the wrong grip at the wrong end, day or night...
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 4:27:47 AM EDT
Test out the concept first, and see if it helps do what you want. Buy a used rear M16 pistol grip and attach a radiator hose clamp to it so it forms a loop big enough to fit over the front sight tower, and then slide it back and tighten the assembly to your handguard. I cut slots through the top of the grip for the hose clamp on both sides by drilling a row of small holes and then cutting/filing away the inbetween material until I have a slot. This hose clamp assembly works better if the original round plastic handguards are still on the gun. If not, you might want to put some padding around where the hose clamp will tighten around your forend, or run a piece of black shrink tubing around the clamp prior to attaching it to the forend. In this way you can experiment with 6 o'clock position vs 5:30, etc., forward vs back, angled back vs forward (Romanian AK style). If any of this helps you shoot better--great. Then you can put a dollar value on the degree of improvement and go for it. Remember, you usually get what you pay for. Oh, and if this or any other form of forward pistol grip helps you "remember what direction you gun is pointing in the dark", I suggest you sell your rifle and invest in a good alarm system or an attack dog. ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 9:55:29 PM EDT
I took an advanced level Jim Crews class here in FL more than a year ago. The book is great, and the class was good. But I think he goes a little overboard on a lot of his conclusions about the effects of some shooting styles. Two best grips I've tried are the M900 and the Dieter, in that order!
Link Posted: 5/3/2003 10:06:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/3/2003 10:08:04 PM EDT by Green0]
No offense but I think the guys with the classes are out to steal your money. That's the only reason I didn't go to Massad Ayoobs class when he was in WI (it was $1300 + ammo) I think I can train myself with $1300 worth of ammo. The front grip controls the direction of the gun (if you don't have one the pistol grip may be doing a little more of the work but still the minority of it [the rear grip is for the fine motor control].) Yeah odds are that that pulse crap is for snipers (and even then I doubt most of them pay any attention to pulse). Common sense will tell you not to squeeze the hell out of it when accuracy matters. [b]In your price range I reccommend the Dieter CQD (for comfort) or the M-900 our of your price range. I think the M-900 is the only grip that looks "right" on a SIR but most guys don't care as much as I do about how things look[/b]
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 2:56:16 PM EDT
Paul The ref. books you refer to are correct, but they were refering to handguards attached to the gun barrel, not a floating barrel system. Any change of pressure or position can change the point of impact if the handguard is then pushing/pulling on the barrel. Since he is going free float he won't have a problem. However, foward pistol grips are generaly still not as accurate to use as a hand directly holding onto a free float handguard system in my experience. Good shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 5/4/2003 7:01:58 PM EDT
Green, I've been to about a dozen classes, but none of them cost anything like what you just described. And for the most part I have been very, very pleased. Some of them were better than others, and some of them were MUCH better than others, but with few exception, I really enjoyed and learned from all of them. None of those I took exceeded $400 + ammo though.
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