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Posted: 6/10/2009 10:47:38 AM EST
tried search, no luck.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 10:48:27 AM EST
You can get a two-piece free float as well.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 10:50:26 AM EST
What are the rifle specs and intended purpose?
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:01:58 AM EST
I switched from the Troy 2 piece rail to stock handguards to lose weight off the front of my rifle. I saw maybe a .25MOA increase in group size from doing the change when using the same ammo.

I'm thinking for most applications use the extra $250 to buy mags and ammo. BSW
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:06:08 AM EST
FF=only "necessary" if its an accuracy/precision based rig

if not, the std 2 piece/non-FF HGs will do fine
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:40:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By ALPHAGHOST:
FF=only "necessary" if its an accuracy/precision based rig

if not, the std 2 piece/non-FF HGs will do fine


+1
I SEE NO NEED TO FF A SHTF M4

Now my bolt actions its a must have
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:40:59 AM EST
you'll notice the difference if you take your gun out to 200m+... or use a sling the proper way (hell, you'll notice it at 25 yards if you use a sling properly, but it's not as pronounced).

I Float my guns if they're for anything more than 50m...
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:46:49 AM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 12:43:46 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By darktide:
you'll notice the difference if you take your gun out to 200m+... ).

I Float my guns if they're for anything more than 50m...



Ive hit Tin Cans at the Berm 220y

rack grade M4


NOPE no difference at 220Y
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 11:56:32 AM EST
Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By darktide:
you'll notice the difference if you take your gun out to 200m+... or use a sling the proper way (hell, you'll notice it at 25 yards if you use a sling properly, but it's not as pronounced).

I Float my guns if they're for anything more than 50m...



Ive hit Tin Cans at the Berm 220y

rack grade M4


+1 same here.

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 12:11:44 PM EST
I made a 220yard Hole-in-one on the golf course before...

What relevance does the 'tin can' statement have, honestly?

Tin Can 4" x what 2.5"...
That's pushing 2MOA @200m––-
Other than that, good contribution to the discussion!

Did I say that you need to float your gun to hit a tin can at 200m? lol I said there was a difference in repeatability that becomes more pronounced at 200+m... especially if you're using a sling and putting torque on the barrel itself.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 12:31:16 PM EST
Originally Posted By darktide:
I made a 220yard Hole-in-one on the golf course before...

What relevance does the 'tin can' statement have, honestly?

Tin Can 4" x what 2.5"...
That's pushing 2MOA @200m––-
Other than that, good contribution to the discussion!

Did I say that you need to float your gun to hit a tin can at 200m? lol I said there was a difference in repeatability that becomes more pronounced at 200+m... especially if you're using a sling and putting torque on the barrel itself.

Very good reply!

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 12:35:36 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 12:41:40 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By darktide:
I made a 220yard Hole-in-one on the golf course before...

What relevance does the 'tin can' statement have, honestly?

Tin Can 4" x what 2.5"...
That's pushing 2MOA @200m––-
Other than that, good contribution to the discussion!

Did I say that you need to float your gun to hit a tin can at 200m?


DID I SAY YOU DID ?

AT 200M I DONT NOTICE ANY DIFFERENCE IN ACCURACY
YOU STATED OTHERWISE

AT 200M a FF rail dont mean a thing on a SHTF /M4
like I stated above your reply

Any one can hit a can at 220y

just hold/squeeze



I like my bolt action Rifles FF ? Its a Must have!

And If I was shooting 500+ MATCH ONLY I would FF a AR15 20inch

Yes FF and sling combo will help a AR15 MATCH only RIFLE
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 12:37:19 PM EST
Originally Posted By darktide:
you'll notice the difference if you take your gun out to 200m+... or use a sling the proper way (hell, you'll notice it at 25 yards if you use a sling properly, but it's not as pronounced).

I Float my guns if they're for anything more than 50m...


This or if you need a continuous rail for optics, EOTech + magnifier + BUIS
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 12:39:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 12:44:36 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By Daisycutter123:
Originally Posted By darktide:
you'll notice the difference if you take your gun out to 200m+... or use a sling the proper way (hell, you'll notice it at 25 yards if you use a sling properly, but it's not as pronounced).

I Float my guns if they're for anything more than 50m...


This or if you need a continuous rail for optics, EOTech + magnifier + BUIS

??????

I run a M4
KAC RAS
BUIS
AIMPOINT / LARUE canti
Lots of room for a magnifier WICH I WOULD NEVER BUY ANYWAY



PUH PLZ FF at ranges over 50M
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 12:57:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 12:57:53 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By SayM14:
tried search, no luck.


Can you tell me what type of AR you are planning to use a Rail on?

My #1 rule KISS
If its a carbine/M4 that used for Protection/SD/HD
I would Save your money and buy a 2 pc Rail Hand guard
Troy makes Quality at a cheap price
I run a KAC RAS on my LMT M4 solid rugged/PROVEN
I also hear MI makes a Cheap rail thats guys seem to like here. But thats hear say only
There are many rails out there

If its a MATCH RIFLE then yes I would go with a FF rail

But for a Rack grade M4 you are GTG from 0 to 300M with a 2pc rail HG
Since Im a civi I will never be shooting 200Y/300M
More like a few feet


And yes you can run BUIS/aimpoint/Eotech and magnifier on a 2pc Rail HG Flat top M4



I dont need to ID targets so I skip the magnifier
and dont have any need to shoot over 300M with a M4




Link Posted: 6/10/2009 1:05:34 PM EST
Ok––- RAS= $150-300 depending on condition...

DD Lites/Omegas, Troy rails, Larue, etc... all offer very light weight Free floating rails that weight as much or less than the KAC-RAS... the question is, why would you deliberately choose a non-ff over a ff?...

Yep, you can shoot a person inside 50m w/o FF––- hell, you can shoot a person at 600m w/o it–– but why add confounding factors into your shooting? I want as accurate of a rig as possible, so I can shoot to the best of my ability, and not worry about whether my gun is the limiting factor...

1) FF doesn't hurt accuracy–– Non-FF does.
2) FF doesn't make your gun less 'sturdy'
3) FF doesn't always cost more
4) FF doesn't always weigh more than Non––- often less (No delta-ring, etc)

In light of these options, if you're looking at 2 rail systems, one FF, one not, that both cost the same, it would be pretty stupid to go with the 'non', now wouldn't it?


The OP needs to decide what he wants his gun for before he makes a decision, for a SHTF gun, no, a FF won't matter, but hell, if he wants a gun he can Take out to 300+m and shoot chipmunks one day and the next day Run it in a Carbine class... then he needs to build something with accuracy capabilities, now won't he?..
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 1:53:17 PM EST
FF is a luxury too me. As far as accuracy is concerned non FF is fine even out to three hundred. Some of you guys dont even know when all the crap you could put on your gun. It was hmmm. A1 or A2, fixed or collapsible and that was it. Those guns did just fine at the long ranges also without the FF doo dads.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:06:06 PM EST
My WOA Service rilfe is ff and so is my WOA varmint rifle....The service rifle because of the torque from the sling and the Varmint rifle do to the low gas block and no fsb. Plus it help IMO with the bipod..does it help...hell both rifles are capable of out shooting me, I think so
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:10:59 PM EST
Originally Posted By darktide:

1) FF doesn't hurt accuracy–– Non-FF does.



And AGAIN WRONG

IN A SHTF M4 FF dont mean Shit

50M FF dont mean shit

But hey Ive been shooting since the 70`s

maybe I just shoot different than You







Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:13:46 PM EST
Originally Posted By platypusREX:
FF is a luxury too me. As far as accuracy is concerned non FF is fine even out to three hundred. Some of you guys dont even know when all the crap you could put on your gun. It was hmmm. A1 or A2, fixed or collapsible and that was it. Those guns did just fine at the long ranges also without the FF doo dads.



Yeah alot of BS out there / Newbies/ etc!

Again a MATCH only RIFLE I would go FF rail

A SHTF CARBINE NO NEED TO FF


Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:16:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 4:16:29 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By tbougie1:
My WOA Service rilfe is ff and so is my WOA varmint rifle....The service rifle because of the torque from the sling and the Varmint rifle do to the low gas block and no fsb. Plus it help IMO with the bipod..does it help...hell both rifles are capable of out shooting me, I think so



+1 TRUE

all My VARMINT LR Rifles are FF

Love calling those foxes

FF for 50m


BTW heck even my 2 RACK GRADE 14.5 M4`s out shoot me

I agree
Free Float rail/Tube is a must have shooting sling / LR accuracy/ Match/bolt action etc!

And anyone who says 2pc rail is better than FF rail is a little off base !!

Some here would like to put words in my mouth?


Im just saying as I said before

THERES NO NEED TO FF A SHTF CARBINE
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:40:52 PM EST
it will be a 16 inch middy. probably have a non-monolithic top rail and want the front rail for FVG and other options. just for plinking and fun. first one and just starting to collect parts.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:45:02 PM EST
Originally Posted By FMJ:

And AGAIN WRONG

IN A SHTF M4 FF dont mean Shit

50M FF dont mean shit




Ok- so what about outside of that 'SHTF' Range? because we still don't know the OP's intent w/ his rifle. Just because YOU don't notice an accuracy difference, doesn't mean that there ISN'T. Once again–– Lay prone/kneel w/ your sling, Lock it up properly and tight w/o a ff... and shoot for a small group... and tell me that FF doesn't matter.

Go take an Appleseed course, shoot CMP or Highpower... you'll learn quickly how that sling(or even a bipod) can change your POA-POI...

It still doesn't change the fact that a Non-FF most of the time costs the exact same as a FF rail. So what reasons are there to not go FF- regardless of the (lack of) merits for SHTF?
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:47:45 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 2:54:39 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By SayM14:
it will be a 16 inch middy. probably have a non-monolithic top rail and want the front rail for FVG and other options. just for plinking and fun. first one and just starting to collect parts.



KISS
DONT KNOW ABOUT MIDDY RAILS
MI makes a 2 pc rail thats cheap
MAGPUL MOE HG you can hang light FVG REAL CHEAP PRICE
Troy 2pc is Quality and cheap
Ive been shooting for over 35years
I have FF rifles and Rack grade M4`s w/ 2pc HAND GUARD RAIL

You really dont need a FF RAIL for what you want

If you are shooting over 300M then buy a Rifle

Also Still my 2 LMT M4`s shoot better than I can



Link Posted: 6/10/2009 2:50:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 3:38:35 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By darktide:
Originally Posted By FMJ:

And AGAIN WRONG

IN A SHTF M4 FF dont mean Shit

50M FF dont mean shit




Ok- so what about outside of that 'SHTF' Range? because we still don't know the OP's intent w/ his rifle. Just because YOU don't notice an accuracy difference, doesn't mean that there ISN'T. Once again–– Lay prone/kneel w/ your sling, Lock it up properly and tight w/o a ff... and shoot for a small group... and tell me that FF doesn't matter.

Go take an Appleseed course, shoot CMP or Highpower... you'll learn quickly how that sling(or even a bipod) can change your POA-POI...

It still doesn't change the fact that a Non-FF most of the time costs the exact same as a FF rail. So what reasons are there to not go FF- regardless of the (lack of) merits for SHTF?



BTW OP has/wants16inch PLINK/FUN GUN

You need to read

all my Rifles are FF

Theres no need to FF a carbine/SHTF weapon



Your confused

I would FF any Rifle I was useing for Tight groups/hunting



I never said 2pc rail is better than FF rail

JUST NO NEED TO FFRAIL FOR A SHTF CARBINE


BTW I will take my 35+years of shooting skill over yours

Since you asked AF SARGE taught me to shoot in the 70`s
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 3:06:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 3:08:08 PM EST by darktide]
Backhanded insults to me in this and other threads is uncalled for. Just because YOU have a differing opinion than mine, doesn't mean that you're right, that you're the end-all, be-all of ar-15's. Hell,, your FUDD attitude of "SHTF accuracy is all you need out of your ar!" just show's that you haven't stepped out of your comfort zone with them. Yep. SHTF accuracy is all YOU might need, you might not be able to outshoot your 14.5" ar's... etc. But that doesn't apply to everyone.

Does a FF improve the accuracy of the gun? Marginally on an AR at best–– but it's not about the accuracy it gives the gun, It's the fact that it takes YOUR influence off of the barrel. Or do you just not understand that?

How much competition experience do you have? I'm an A class shooter for IPSC, I've placed top 10 in my state/division for NM shooting. I compete in ACTS, USPSA, CMP etc. Continue your blind doubt of what i've explained. even w/o testing it yourself. No skin off of my nose bud.


I'm done with your haughty, Pompous comments FMJ–– Move this to PM's if you want to continue to argue with me.

***ETA: Keep your 35 years of pompous shooting, I'll take my 10 years of properly trained, competition oriented shooting any day.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 3:32:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 3:46:21 PM EST by FMJ]
I didnt back hand you or insult you in anyway ?
sorry if ya took it that way!

Your the one with the problem? or dont understand ?? I agee fully MATCH RIFLES =FF Mine rifles are FF

who wants to keep it going

Fact is no need to FF a SHTF carbine for accuracy
FF past 50M etc!

Ive been here along time and never ever start it first OR NAME CALL

THERES A REPORT BUTTON YOU CAN CLICK IF YOU THINK I / NAME CALLING YA or gave you back handed treatment

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 3:59:18 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 4:04:32 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By darktide:
Originally Posted By FMJ:

And AGAIN WRONG

IN A SHTF M4 FF dont mean Shit

50M FF dont mean shit






It still doesn't change the fact that a Non-FF most of the time costs the exact same as a FF rail. So what reasons are there to not go FF- regardless of the (lack of) merits for SHTF?



Ya just dont get what Im saying??

I SAID NOTHING ABOUT FF VS 2pc RAIL

Or Cost of the 2pc rail vs FF


I said NO NEED TO FF A SHTF M4/Carbine


Again I agree Fully with you !!!! PLZ READ

shooting long range/ MATCH I would go FF rail/tube

IM TALKING SHTF M4 ONLY THERES NO NEED TO FF!! TALKING COMBAT ACCURACY HERE!! FFisnt a must have

I hope this is clear

AGAIN
Yes I BELIVE ANY RIFLE FOR ACCURACY SHOULD BE FF

So I hope this will put it to rest with ya

BTW
OP has a 16 inch barrel for fun/plinking




Link Posted: 6/10/2009 4:14:57 PM EST
Originally Posted By SayM14:
it will be a 16 inch middy. probably have a non-monolithic top rail and want the front rail for FVG and other options. just for plinking and fun. first one and just starting to collect parts.


If that's the case, a drop-in rail system will be fine.

However, if you want a drop-in railed handguard that is a FF, check out the 9" DD Omega.

I prefer drop-in handguards for several reasons, one of the main reasons being the ability to remove/replace them easily.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 4:17:00 PM EST
That was fun... Why don"t you two Drama Queens take it elsewhere.
To the OP:

Generally a free floated rifle will shoot better than one that is not. You won't see too many precision ( read not shooting cans at X? ranges ), that aren't FF. " I've hit cans at" what ever range isn't the same as, one round, one hit. I've hit cars at 1 click with a M16. Took forever to walk it in, means nothing. I hit something every time I shoot. Gravity has something to do with it.
I'm in the process of making a AR to compliment my SHTF rifle. It's a middy with a DCM FF. It's given me fits but is almost done. When I complete the carbine version for my daughter, I'll post both.

Ask opinions, but don't be swayed thier bickering. If a FF upper fills your need, get one. If not don't.
458 ( only been shooting since 1959 ) still learning
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 4:20:21 PM EST
Originally Posted By 458winmag:
That was fun... Why don"t you two Drama Queens take it elsewhere.
To the OP:

Generally a free floated rifle will shoot better than one that is not. You won't see too many precision ( read not shooting cans at X? ranges ), that aren't FF. " I've hit cans at" what ever range isn't the same as, one round, one hit. I've hit cars at 1 click with a M16. Took forever to walk it in, means nothing. I hit something every time I shoot. Gravity has something to do with it.
I'm in the process of making a AR to compliment my SHTF rifle. It's a middy with a DCM FF. It's given me fits but is almost done. When I complete the carbine version for my daughter, I'll post both.

Ask opinions, but don't be swayed thier bickering. If a FF upper fills your need, get one. If not don't.
458 ( only been shooting since 1959 ) still learning


True

all my rifles are FF

from post # 1 I said SHTF / M4


never once did I say 2pc was better than FF rail


Just a FACT theres no need to FF a M4 for SHTF


Theres nothing wrong witha FF rail M4

just aint a must


seems simple to me

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 4:23:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 4:24:01 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By ftwm:
Originally Posted By SayM14:
it will be a 16 inch middy. probably have a non-monolithic top rail and want the front rail for FVG and other options. just for plinking and fun. first one and just starting to collect parts.


If that's the case, a drop-in rail system will be fine.

However, if you want a drop-in railed handguard that is a FF, check out the 9" DD Omega.

I prefer drop-in handguards for several reasons, one of the main reasons being the ability to remove/replace them easily.



If the OMEGA by DD was out then

Then I would of bought it ! or maybe even a 2ps FF rail

I never ever said its wrong to FF a SHTF M4

just it wasnt a must have !! OR NEED
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 4:32:13 PM EST
1. If you are spending money on a rail system, it might as well be FF.

2. There are scenarios where it could benefit a shtf rifle. Let's say after dumping a mag dealing with immediate threats, you find it necessary to make a precise shot outside 100 yards. Vigorously bracing your carbine against a fence post, with lights and a vertical grip hanging off your rails. making a shot with a hot barrel under those circumstances benefit from having no pressure against the barrel.

3. That scenario may be unlikely, but as I said in number 1, if you're spending the money for a rail, it may as well be FF
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 4:36:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Geohans:
1. If you are spending money on a rail system, it might as well be FF.

2. There are scenarios where it could benefit a shtf rifle. Let's say after dumping a mag dealing with immediate threats, you find it necessary to make a precise shot outside 100 yards. Vigorously bracing your carbine against a fence post, with lights and a vertical grip hanging off your rails. making a shot with a hot barrel under those circumstances benefit from having no pressure against the barrel.

3. That scenario may be unlikely, but as I said in number 1, if you're spending the money for a rail, it may as well be FF



I dont think I will ever have this problem? Im just a civi

But you are right nothing wrong with going FFrail on a SHTF M4

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:30:20 PM EST
wow! thanks the the honest yet heated thoughts. I probably am ok with a non-FF. is the issue with the two pice that it can be removed and replaced without removing the barrel?

also I like this set up - except maybe use a rail gas block with a detachable flip up front site. anyone recognize it?

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:31:09 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 5:38:53 PM EST by Daisycutter123]
Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By Daisycutter123:
Originally Posted By darktide:
you'll notice the difference if you take your gun out to 200m+... or use a sling the proper way (hell, you'll notice it at 25 yards if you use a sling properly, but it's not as pronounced).

I Float my guns if they're for anything more than 50m...


This or if you need a continuous rail for optics, EOTech + magnifier + BUIS

??????

I run a M4
KAC RAS
BUIS
AIMPOINT / LARUE canti
Lots of room for a magnifier WICH I WOULD NEVER BUY ANYWAY



PUH PLZ FF at ranges over 50M


An EOTech + magnifier + BUIS needs more rail than an Aimpoint w/ cantilever mount.(the purpose of the cantilever mount). You COULD mount an EOTech on a 2 piece non-FF forearm ahead of a magnifier but I would never mount optics on a 2 piece non FF forearm, opinions vary.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:40:24 PM EST
come on guys - focus - back to the question. see the pic above?
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:48:10 PM EST
The military issues non FF rails on M16's and M4's and our troops seem to do just fine with them. I think for most purposes a non FF rail is perfectly fine, the only time you really ever need a FF rail is for a precision rifle.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 5:53:45 PM EST
Originally Posted By SayM14:
wow! thanks the the honest yet heated thoughts. I probably am ok with a non-FF. is the issue with the two pice that it can be removed and replaced without removing the barrel?

also I like this set up - except maybe use a rail gas block with a detachable flip up front site. anyone recognize it?

http://pics.gunbroker.com/GB/128931000/128931215/pix1133610359.jpg


You can get 2 piece non and floating, which installs easier. The non floating may move a little and MIGHT affect tack driving accuracy a little. If you're not mounting optics on it or long range shooting, take your pick. The gas block w/ flip up sight looks like a YHM, also comes w/ rail on bottom.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:16:05 PM EST
If you are unsure whether you want a Free-floating rail or a standard two-piece, my recommendation would be to compromise and get a two-piece free-floating system like the Daniel Defense Omega. The Omega doesn't require you to remove the barrel, delta ring, or anything else aside from the original plastic handguards and it isn't that much heavier than the stock components. If you are willing to spend the money on quality components, you may as well spend a little more on getting free-floating rails as it is a feature that you may find you want in the future. Why pay for rails twice if you can do it just once (if you decide you need/want free-floating later)?

While an above poster pointed out that he never expected to need the precision of a free-floated system as a civvie if/when the S hits TF, it is important to note that should the S hit TF all bets are off. The very nature of the "S" component is that it is unexpected and it seems foolish to deprive yourself of a potentially important capability that could be easily acquired simply because you don't imagine the circumstances occurring where it would be necessary.

In circumstances like this, I believe an old cliche applies: "Buy [quality] once, cry once". If you can afford the free-floating rail systems, and you can find one that doesn't require excessive work (which you seemed concerned with) you should purchase it. There are certainly very real advantages to a free-floated barrel as mentioned numerous times in this thread, not the least of which is consistent shot placement no matter what sort of grip pressure you are using or any equipment you have hung on the forearm. You won't shouldn't have any zero-shift if you change the load-out on your rails that you might experience with non-floated rail systems.

Essentially, in my opinion, there really is no reason not to buy a free-floated system. If you can't afford one, consider waiting until you can (that's what I have been doing).
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 6:22:10 PM EST
I have FFd all my guns just because I like the looks of it. That may be a stupid reason but they are my guns and I want them that way.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:08:17 PM EST
Originally Posted By Daisycutter123:
Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By Daisycutter123:
Originally Posted By darktide:
you'll notice the difference if you take your gun out to 200m+... or use a sling the proper way (hell, you'll notice it at 25 yards if you use a sling properly, but it's not as pronounced).

I Float my guns if they're for anything more than 50m...


This or if you need a continuous rail for optics, EOTech + magnifier + BUIS

??????

I run a M4
KAC RAS
BUIS
AIMPOINT / LARUE canti
Lots of room for a magnifier WICH I WOULD NEVER BUY ANYWAY



PUH PLZ FF at ranges over 50M


An EOTech + magnifier + BUIS needs more rail than an Aimpoint w/ cantilever mount.(the purpose of the cantilever mount). You COULD mount an EOTech on a 2 piece non-FF forearm ahead of a magnifier but I would never mount optics on a 2 piece non FF forearm, opinions vary.




I have plenty of room on my M4 but use a aimpoint/larue canti and RAS as ya stated

My back up
LMT M4 14.5 arms 40 BUIS & iffy tech 551F

Yes you are right no room for a magnifier on back up
Dont know if I run a Larue eotech mount it that would help? I dont think it would??? could be wrong


I plan on getting rid of my Iffy tech 551 F and going aimpoint

I guess if he buys a eotech he will be fudged
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:11:49 PM EST
Originally Posted By Fitz87:
The military issues non FF rails on M16's and M4's and our troops seem to do just fine with them. I think for most purposes a non FF rail is perfectly fine, the only time you really ever need a FF rail is for a precision rifle.



WOW BINGO!!!!!!
I knew I wasnt the only 1

hell yes I would run FF on any target rifle

Hell I would run FF on a M4

But is it a must when shoot over 50M to 300M

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:14:48 PM EST
Originally Posted By Mikebiker:
I have FFd all my guns just because I like the looks of it. That may be a stupid reason but they are my guns and I want them that way.



No it aint stupid

Stupid is saying its a MUST HAVE on a SHTF M4
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:21:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 8:13:48 PM EST by FMJ]
Originally Posted By SkyCatII:
If you are unsure whether you want a Free-floating rail or a standard two-piece, my recommendation would be to compromise and get a two-piece free-floating system like the Daniel Defense Omega. The Omega doesn't require you to remove the barrel, delta ring, or anything else aside from the original plastic handguards and it isn't that much heavier than the stock components. If you are willing to spend the money on quality components, you may as well spend a little more on getting free-floating rails as it is a feature that you may find you want in the future. Why pay for rails twice if you can do it just once (if you decide you need/want free-floating later)?

While an above poster pointed out that he never expected to need the precision of a free-floated system as a civvie if/when the S hits TF, it is important to note that should the S hit TF all bets are off. The very nature of the "S" component is that it is unexpected and it seems foolish to deprive yourself of a potentially important capability that could be easily acquired simply because you don't imagine the circumstances occurring where it would be necessary.

In circumstances like this, I believe an old cliche applies: "Buy [quality] once, cry once". If you can afford the free-floating rail systems, and you can find one that doesn't require excessive work (which you seemed concerned with) you should purchase it. There are certainly very real advantages to a free-floated barrel as mentioned numerous times in this thread, not the least of which is consistent shot placement no matter what sort of grip pressure you are using or any equipment you have hung on the forearm. You won't shouldn't have any zero-shift if you change the load-out on your rails that you might experience with non-floated rail systems.

Essentially, in my opinion, there really is no reason not to buy a free-floated system. If you can't afford one, consider waiting until you can (that's what I have been doing).









If I wanted a FF rail SHTF M4 MATCH GRADE

I would sell the Chrome lined barrel and buy a SS Match type/ Noveske etc!

If you want a 10rd ragged hole group at 100Y

why buy a M4 to begin with



in my 20+years of holding a permitt going threw CHARLIE etc!

I would be well served with a PLAIN JANE M4 with light


Zombies aint going to happen


will a FF rail make a SHTF better well I really dont think it will add that much


To OP

The Magpul Hand Guards are very cheap like 30 bucks
you can add rails to run a light / FVG


alot cheaper than a Quality Rail 2pc or FF rail



also On my Spare LMT M4 I use the Magwell hold

so you could skip the VFG and just add light to save cash

Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:30:09 PM EST
Is it OK to mount a rail front BUIS or a laser on a non FF handguard?
Are they solid enough for 100 yds and under? Not talking 300yd match precision.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:49:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/10/2009 7:51:52 PM EST by mathecb]
DD Omega. Well worth the money, and very solid. This is the rail system I will buy from now on. It is very easy to install and has a lockup as tight as anything else I have ever owned. (KAC, MI, LARUE,)
If you are looking for a quality rail system, there's no disadvantage to the DD Omega......I promise you.
On a SHTF it is not a must to have a FF rail, but it cant hurn either.
BUY WITH CONFIDENCE!!!
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 7:52:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By mathecb:
DD Omega. Well worth the money, and very solid. This is the rail system I will buy from now on. It is very easy to install and has a lockup as tight as anything else I have ever owned. (KAC, MI, LARUE,)
If you are looking for a quality rail system, there's no disadvantage to the DD Omega......I promise you.
BUY WITH CONFIDENCE!!!


The DD Omega is the only rail that scares me. I just dont like it. In a Glock trigger kinda way. I like their M4 rail.
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:04:07 PM EST
Originally Posted By WYcoyote:
Is it OK to mount a rail front BUIS or a laser on a non FF handguard?
Are they solid enough for 100 yds and under? Not talking 300yd match precision.



True enough

Most 90% of CIVI`S aint going to shoot BG at 50Y
Let alone 25y
Link Posted: 6/10/2009 8:05:43 PM EST
Originally Posted By mathecb:
DD Omega. Well worth the money, and very solid. This is the rail system I will buy from now on. It is very easy to install and has a lockup as tight as anything else I have ever owned. (KAC, MI, LARUE,)
If you are looking for a quality rail system, there's no disadvantage to the DD Omega......I promise you.
On a SHTF it is not a must to have a FF rail, but it cant hurn either.
BUY WITH CONFIDENCE!!!



yeah I like the / all DD rails
I might of even bought one If they sold them back then
Link Posted: 6/11/2009 2:48:13 AM EST
Originally Posted By FMJ:
Originally Posted By SkyCatII:
If you are unsure whether you want a Free-floating rail or a standard two-piece, my recommendation would be to compromise and get a two-piece free-floating system like the Daniel Defense Omega. The Omega doesn't require you to remove the barrel, delta ring, or anything else aside from the original plastic handguards and it isn't that much heavier than the stock components. If you are willing to spend the money on quality components, you may as well spend a little more on getting free-floating rails as it is a feature that you may find you want in the future. Why pay for rails twice if you can do it just once (if you decide you need/want free-floating later)?

While an above poster pointed out that he never expected to need the precision of a free-floated system as a civvie if/when the S hits TF, it is important to note that should the S hit TF all bets are off. The very nature of the "S" component is that it is unexpected and it seems foolish to deprive yourself of a potentially important capability that could be easily acquired simply because you don't imagine the circumstances occurring where it would be necessary.

In circumstances like this, I believe an old cliche applies: "Buy [quality] once, cry once". If you can afford the free-floating rail systems, and you can find one that doesn't require excessive work (which you seemed concerned with) you should purchase it. There are certainly very real advantages to a free-floated barrel as mentioned numerous times in this thread, not the least of which is consistent shot placement no matter what sort of grip pressure you are using or any equipment you have hung on the forearm. You won't shouldn't have any zero-shift if you change the load-out on your rails that you might experience with non-floated rail systems.

Essentially, in my opinion, there really is no reason not to buy a free-floated system. If you can't afford one, consider waiting until you can (that's what I have been doing).









If I wanted a FF rail SHTF M4 MATCH GRADE

I would sell the Chrome lined barrel and buy a SS Match type/ Noveske etc!

If you want a 10rd ragged hole group at 100Y

why buy a M4 to begin with



in my 20+years of holding a permitt going threw CHARLIE etc!

I would be well served with a PLAIN JANE M4 with light


Zombies aint going to happen


will a FF rail make a SHTF better well I really dont think it will add that much


To OP

The Magpul Hand Guards are very cheap like 30 bucks
you can add rails to run a light / FVG


alot cheaper than a Quality Rail 2pc or FF rail



also On my Spare LMT M4 I use the Magwell hold

so you could skip the VFG and just add light to save cash



A free-float rail isn't only important on a match-grade gun. If your barrel profile is a government profile rather than a heavy barrel under the handguards the free-float rail become exceptionally important when using a sling properly to assist in steadying your shots. You may not have had any problems with one, but if you read Kyle Lamb's book "Green Eyes and Black Rifles" you will note that in his experience (including several overseas tours as a soldier in US Army Special Forces) he has been able to shift the point of impact of his rounds more than 8 inches simply by torquing the barrel with proper use of a sling. That sounds pretty substantial to me.

Again, you are right in that most civilians will never have to pop baddies at 50 yds, 25 yds, or at all. However, your insistence that "zombies ain't gonna happen" is a little foolish (assuming you are talking about a real-SHTF situation rather than real "Night of the Living Dead"-type zombies). If it is an absolute "not gonna happen", why bother with a SHTF rig at all?

If you can afford the free-floating rail systems, and if you are seriously considering purchasing them, there is no reason whatsoever not to. Note that I am not saying "OMG you needs to buy teh freefloats NAO!". You certainly do not need them, but it would seem wise to me to add them now rather than spend money on a different system now and spend more money adding a free-float rail system later after you have found that you do in fact want them.

In summation: Free-float rails help with practical accuracy, you don't need them, they aren't going to hurt anything, and if you even think that you might want them someday you may as well add them now so you don't waste money later. That is why to this point I have not added any other rail systems to my carbine - I am going to wait until I have the money to buy a Daniel Defense Omega set-up. Think of it this way - you buy a different system now and it costs you $50-100 (and it may cost more). Then later you decide that you really wanted a free-float system after all which is going to cost $250. Now you will pay a total of $300-350(+/-) instead of simply paying the $250 once.
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