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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/18/2005 4:41:54 AM EDT
just courious my guess is probably 300 meters with iron sights
and from there up to 500 with good optics....

i close any one?

just got my armalite the other day and before that

all my rifle shooting was with an sks which limited to 200 yrdsish.....
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:19:42 AM EDT
How do you define "effective range"?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:21:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 5:21:56 AM EDT by pyro6988]

Originally Posted By Matt_B:
How do you define "effective range"?



+1 Effective against paper or bad guys?

What type of ammuntion do you want to know about? The distances will vary for different bullet weights and composition.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:25:39 AM EDT
If your looking to take shots over 200 yds get a .308.Effective range to me is if I can see what Im shooting at.16" barrels will hit out that far but real world scenarios dictate 90% of the time under 100 yds and 70% of that well under 50.I would go 14.5/phantom unless your gonna change out muzzle devices on a regular basis.For real world distances it will be effective enough.I never really got the effective range label the military pouts on rifles.Like the M14 max effective range is 650 yds but a .308 if well placed will kill you beyond that.So to me max effective range is dictated by how far you can see and make out a target and confirm what it is before you decide to destroy it.For me thats well under 100 yds.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:27:13 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ops144:
just courious my guess is probably 300 meters with iron sights
and from there up to 500 with good optics....

i close any one?

just got my armalite the other day and before that

all my rifle shooting was with an sks which limited to 200 yrdsish.....



Effective range as in the ragne at which a round can still be put through some POS? or Effective range as in the range at which the round will still fragment?.

Two different things.

I've seen guys shoot COM all day long at 600 using scoped carbines and heavy OTM loads. Bullet is beyond it's fragmentation range, but a bullet in the chest is still going to crap on your day even at 600 yards. I'd call that effective still. Some may not.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:07:35 AM EDT
Colt says...

Effective Range :
500 m

Maximum Range :
3,600 m

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:13:14 AM EDT
In terms of wound ballistics - look at the tables in the ammo forum. Off the top of my head, M193 and M855 are good out to 120 yds or so in a 16" tube, and the 75/77 gr. BTHP loads buy you another 50 yards or so.

If you're talking about the ability to repeatably hit point targets, regardless of terminal effect, that's a harder question. A lot depends on the shooter, his position, the ammo and sighting system used, and the individual rifle. Personally, I don't think I'd ever attempt a shot longer than 200 yards with my 16" Colt with iron or Aimpoint using my normal XM193 or Q3131A ammo- but I'm more than certain that there are individuals out there who could double that range.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:41:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 6:42:30 AM EDT by ops144]
ok poor wording on my part sorry

best pratical range for self defence"as long as i get good with the rifle"

then realistically hit benching the weapon just to see what it can do
both with iron and optics...
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:28:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ops144:
ok poor wording on my part sorry

best pratical range for self defence"as long as i get good with the rifle"

then realistically hit benching the weapon just to see what it can do
both with iron and optics...



About 100 yards...for stunning terminal performance...as per the 2,700fps Frag Rule given a 16" barrels velocity.

However...using 69-75gr bullets?....I believe you'd seriousely mess up someones day if you could pull head/chest shots out too 300yds or so....with a 16" barrel.

After that?....unless ya poke'em in the eye (or just the right spot) don't count on'em laying down for ya.

There's some EXCELLENT testing and info here...

www.ammo-oracle.com/body.htm

Hope that helps and L8R, Bill.

Oh and...PS...most firefight engagements happen at less than 100 yards...90+% are at less than 300 yards....but after that?...unless you're tot'in a 12-16lb scoped out .308 yer sol anyways....jmho.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:46:27 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ops144:

best pratical range for self defence"as long as i get good with the rifle"



Realistically under 150 yards, if you are using xm193. You can increase the range some with heavier better designed bullets, but I wouldn't be shooting at anyone past 200 yards with and 16" barreled AR with any bullet. At that point you are much better of using escape and evasion.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 11:39:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By pyro6988:

Originally Posted By ops144:

best pratical range for self defence"as long as i get good with the rifle"



Realistically under 150 yards, if you are using xm193. You can increase the range some with heavier better designed bullets, but I wouldn't be shooting at anyone past 200 yards with and 16" barreled AR with any bullet. At that point you are much better of using escape and evasion.



I'd hafta disagree with the "under 150 yds" remark.....and situations and environments are just that...and situations and environments dictate you use your head BEFORE you use your rifle....that said?....a 62grainer out of a 16" barrel is still cruising at 2,163fps....at 300 yards...head or chest that would easily ruin someones day....and can be easily done with a well scoped 16" carbine even in the hands of a modestly skilled marksman...if someone were poking at me from 300yds out?...I'd seriousely weigh my shot options before automatically risking taking one in the back attempting to evade.

But that's JMHO and L8R, Bill.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:13:29 PM EDT
If your talking about effective range against personnel, I would say at least 1000 yards if you can manage a headshot. Maybe even more.

But now your talking about some serious shooting, compensating for the massive bullet drop, and heavier bullets are probably mandatory.

A bullet travelling that fast is still going to penetrate skull and probably exit out the back, making mush of the brain.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:16:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 12:17:07 PM EDT by Lumpy196]
Id love hear about a 300-500 yard defensive shooting in the civilian world.


Think 3-30 yards 95+% of the time
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:21:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:23:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Id love hear about a 300-500 yard defensive shooting in the civilian world.


Think 3-30 yards 95+% of the time



I can hit a man size target with my M4 at 300 yards.. no gurantee where I would hit him, but i do it on a regualr bases, of course given he is standing still. I have missed as close as 10 yards in force on force trainning...




Im not talking about any individuals capability, Im talking about the NEED to DEFENSIVELY shoot someone at 300+ yards.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 12:55:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 12:57:28 PM EDT by dbrowne1]

Originally Posted By johndoexu:
If your talking about effective range against personnel, I would say at least 1000 yards if you can manage a headshot. Maybe even more.



1000 yard headshot? 16" 5.56mm carbine? Are you being serious?

I mean shit, I guess that's possible in theory. But even with perfect conditions, handloads, and $2K glass on the gun, I don't think that's realistic.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:23:08 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 1:24:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 2:03:11 PM EDT
Uhmmm....straight from ammo oracle....

"The SS-109 can penetrate the 3.45mm standard NATO steel plate to 640 meters"

"The U. S. steel helmet penetration results are even more impressive as the SS-109 can penetrate it up to 1,300 meters"

Now granted....these tests were done with 20" tubes but...the 16"ers only give up just a tad over 100fps in comparison and only yeild just under a measly 7"s more bullet drop at 500 meters!!!

And...We have many shooters on this board who can hold head sized groups at 300 yards with their 16" carbines.

L8R, Bill.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:08:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Id love hear about a 300-500 yard defensive shooting in the civilian world.


Think 3-30 yards 95+% of the time



I can hit a man size target with my M4 at 300 yards.. no gurantee where I would hit him, but i do it on a regualr bases, of course given he is standing still. I have missed as close as 10 yards in force on force trainning...




Im not talking about any individuals capability, Im talking about the NEED to DEFENSIVELY shoot someone at 300+ yards.



Ok, got it.. as a civilian, you shoot some one at 300 yards DEFENSIVELY, you got some explaining to do...



He was VERY VERY scary.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:15:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By lagadelphia:
He was VERY VERY scary.




The guy you shot, or the guy thats going to be ass-raping you in prison?
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 3:16:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By lagadelphia:
He was VERY VERY scary.




The guy you shot, or the guy thats going to be ass-raping you in prison?



Yes
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:23:35 PM EDT
Effective range of a 16" carbine??

My $.02 300 Yds, Irons or Aimpoint, after that, you using the wrong tool.........

I do agree with the definition based on a defensive purposes, well under 100Yds for that, That's why I practice my "short Game" alot more then the my "long game"
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 4:53:25 PM EDT
ok self defence was used a loose term shtf stuff thats all

what i am really lookin for is best pratical range for the weapon
for benching it glass or electronic sights

and same for iron sights
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:19:00 PM EDT
Last sunday I shot my RRA Elite CAR with WAO bbl. @ a lasered 900 yds. Prone, rifle resting on my range bag. horn. 75 gr handloads. Iron sights with the elev. wheel turned 2 full revs. my spotter said I was keepig in a 2' circle. target was a 1' square steel plate. wind was about 5 to 8 mph
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:20:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/18/2005 5:23:34 PM EDT by model927]
Look at some of the reports coming from iraq,the majority of shootings are taking place 30 yds and under and most snipers are not taking shots past 300 yds.What ranges the rifle is capable of has nothing to do with real world ranges and use.For the last 60 years and indeed as long as people have been killing eachother closing in and destroying the enemy means just that.Hell here in Boston no one was picking off british troops at 300 yds during the battle of bunker hill.If they were the order dont shoot until you see the whites of their eyes wouldnt have been given.Combat more often than not takes place 70& of the time or more well under 50 yds..its a fact.Lets not adopt the Armys former romance fantasy of rifle men picking off guys at 600 yds.Maybe no mans land world war1 or certain terrain but thats the minority of times compared to the majority of real close in fighting.I doubt guys who stormed the normandy beach used the 30 M1 rifles long range capability once they got into and past the atlantic wall and the hedgerow fighting that took place after.If I have to shoot 900 yds Im using a scope on my M14 clone not my defensive carbine.Targets at 900 yds are one thing but I wouldnt risk trying to take a person at that range with an AR..if you miss now hw knows your there and .223 at that range...like I said .308 or larger.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:34:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/21/2005 7:14:12 AM EDT by Brerarnold]
I call "effective range" the range within which I can reliably place a COM shot, within the distance at which my ammo will reliably fragment. Yes, a non-fragmenting puncture wound at a longer distance will still have a negative impact on the target, but it is not what I personally consider "effective". For non-fragmenting wounds, I want a heavier bullet in a larger caliber. These are personal choices and not absolute values.

Most people could manage a disabling COM shot farther out than they could get a head shot. So let's forget the head shot stuff, if we are establishing parameters. I know a lot of shooters, some of them a lot better than me, but none whose plans rely on 500 yard head shots. I'm not saying it can't be done. I'm saying, be real. We're talking about civilian self-defense here aren't we?

Me, with my 16" carbine (Oly), my eyes (middle-aged), my sights (iron), and my ammunition (xm193): 100 yds if I have to but not if I can help it.

You are going to have establish your own effective range with your parameters, your eyes, your equipment, and your ammo. Anything else is just speculation.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 5:45:09 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By lagadelphia:
He was VERY VERY scary.




The guy you shot, or the guy thats going to be ass-raping you in prison?




Link Posted: 8/18/2005 6:32:39 PM EDT
I always think of how an ambush is set up.Its purpose is with the elelment of surprise to pounce on the enemy close up and destroy all of him as quickly as possible and usually with extreme violence.That way close up theres no where for the enemy to go.The closer you are chances are he wont escape especially if its a small group. And with out surprise either side hunter or hunted could have the tied turned against them.Enagaging a group far way will alow them to take cover and then its a knock down drag out something you dont want.The farther away you engage #1 in self denese is non defensible in court and so is ambushing an enemy as you end up on the wrong side of the law.The point being in a self defense encounter chances are better than 95% that its gonna be close up so train for the way you will most likely have to fight.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 7:32:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By SMGLee:

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Id love hear about a 300-500 yard defensive shooting in the civilian world.


Think 3-30 yards 95+% of the time



I can hit a man size target with my M4 at 300 yards.. no gurantee where I would hit him, but i do it on a regualr bases, of course given he is standing still. I have missed as close as 10 yards in force on force trainning...




Im not talking about any individuals capability, Im talking about the NEED to DEFENSIVELY shoot someone at 300+ yards.



Ok, got it.. as a civilian, you shoot some one at 300 yards DEFENSIVELY, you got some explaining to do...



Only situation I can think of where someone might really need to bag a bad guy at such ranges would be sniping at an invading army. Bag one or two and scoot. That's an offensive use, technically. Though I'd call it defending my country. And by that point legalities probably wouldn't matter a whole lot.

Link Posted: 8/18/2005 9:57:10 PM EDT
Last weekend I was shooting at targets 18x18inches in size at 300 yds with a 14.5' carbine with M855 and hit the target every time from a standing position...in a good rain.

I dont see you ever HAVING to make that shot, but its possible.
Link Posted: 8/18/2005 10:35:25 PM EDT
In the USMC, the effective range of a 20" barrel (1 in 7 twist.)... It was 550 meters for point tgts, 800 meters for area tgts... using 62gr. NATO rounds (green tips)...

I'm not sure what the specs are for 16".... but the info above should give it some perspective.

In any case, you can still reach out and touch someone.

Semper Fi!
Link Posted: 8/19/2005 1:41:49 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2005 1:50:52 AM EDT by Combat_Diver]
I agree with Lumpy on the use of self defense. You won't be able to claim self defence unless your engaged first from a long distance. IE on the high seas but pirates attack in close also. The problem with engaging targets at long range is not the fact that you can't hit them its the lack of magnification to identify. I can regularly engage targets (meaning hitting COM) at 500yds with my 14.5" M4A1 with irons from the prone unsupported because I know I'm supposed to shoot them. However, its identifing the threat from non-combatants at that distance espesically in a MOUT enviroment. Static range and actual enviroments aren't the same but it is a start.

CD

Edited to add another point for those who say that they'll grab the .308. Sometimes you have to fit with want you have so know the max range. I have 9 guns assigned to me here in Iraq from pistols/assualt rifles/machine guns etc. I better be able to defend myself and others with what every I have in hand at what ever range that I can. (tried 300m with the M9 Beretta several weeks ago, need allot of hold over)

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