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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/25/2005 2:53:43 PM EDT

anyone here have any links to threads on the collector grade book " black rifle II" by

chris bartolli . looked real good at a glance, but want to hear from the enlightened folks

at arf.com !!! thanks..
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 2:58:55 PM EDT
Decent book, but it has errors in it.
Link Posted: 8/25/2005 5:14:11 PM EDT
The first volume is by far the better book, but the second is more recent with pictures of the latest go fast gear .
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 2:27:39 AM EDT
What errors?
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 4:23:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By jaygee:
anyone here have any links.................................




Collector Grade Books

BR II is going to be the best reference book on the AR 15 that you'll find, not perfect but then how many books on the AR are out there, not enough as far as I'm concerned

The BR II is mainly directed towards Colt products, No real info on other brands,

Get the book and make your own conclusions, Knowledge is king
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 5:39:59 AM EDT
sorry to go off topic but this is the first i have seen Forest on this board, i just want to say that your website is awesome and has helped me alot
Link Posted: 8/26/2005 10:48:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By J_man61:
sorry to go off topic but this is the first i have seen Forest on this board, i just want to say that your website is awesome and has helped me alot



Thanks for the kind words.

As to the errors.

There are errors with the information on terminal ballistics (stupid stuff that was easy to check). Also there is an error in the date the author indicates the Military switched to the black insert/spring combo. His date is off by several YEARS - I have copies of the Army PM magaziunel that mentions the 'new' spring & insert for the M4. This magazines goes to just about every unit and is availalble for free online - again a really easy thing to cross check.

There is also some debate about the part relating to the flattop. Of this I have no idea if the information is correct or not. My take on it seems as if the BR2 author left alot out of the story. This was covered in some detail when BR2 came out by the 'players' in the Rifles & Uppers forum. If you're a Team Member search the Archive for the thread(s) and make up your own mind.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 6:46:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
Also there is an error in the date the author indicates the Military switched to the black insert/spring combo. His date is off by several YEARS - I have copies of the Army PM magaziunel that mentions the 'new' spring & insert for the M4. This magazines goes to just about every unit and is availalble for free online - again a really easy thing to cross check.



Actually, both are correct. The November 1999 issue of PS mentions the across-the-board introduction of the spring with the black insert (NSN 1005-01-424-5899). This replaced the spring with the blue insert (NSN 1005-00-760-3768). However, the gold colored spring with a black insert (NSN 1005-01-505-2886) was approved for the M4A1 between February and August of 2003. It was introduced as part of the "M4A1 Reliability Enhancement Kit" for USSOCOM. Usage also seems to have spilled over to regular Army M4, as the assembly is referenced as a new item in the December 2004 issue of PS.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:14:33 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dewatters:

Originally Posted By Forest:
Also there is an error in the date the author indicates the Military switched to the black insert/spring combo. His date is off by several YEARS - I have copies of the Army PM magaziunel that mentions the 'new' spring & insert for the M4. This magazines goes to just about every unit and is availalble for free online - again a really easy thing to cross check.



Actually, both are correct. The November 1999 issue of PS mentions the across-the-board introduction of the spring with the black insert (NSN 1005-01-424-5899). This replaced the spring with the blue insert (NSN 1005-00-760-3768). However, the gold colored spring with a black insert (NSN 1005-01-505-2886) was approved for the M4A1 between February and August of 2003. It was introduced as part of the "M4A1 Reliability Enhancement Kit" for USSOCOM. Usage also seems to have spilled over to regular Army M4, as the assembly is referenced as a new item in the December 2004 issue of PS.



Was about to address that, but see you already did. This can be confirmed. I have a 2000 M4A1 upper, and it has the black buffer, silver spring. Colt's typically will use a new part prior to Big ARmy approving it. The gold spring and black buffer is a good example. You can find them in commerical rifles prior to there use in issue carbines.

Mr Watters, do you know if the black buffer silver spring set up now standard in rifles is the same used in the port gun? We are also talking of such things in depth here:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=248205

BTW, if you get a chance would appreciate if you would take a look at some research I am doing here:

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=242620
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:25:47 AM EDT

Originally Posted By crsbar:
What errors?



The most infamous is the picture on page xxi. Another is the mention of dropping the big hole trigger/disonnector/hammer pin holes on page 264.

To be fair, the late Ezell's book TBR also contains errors.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:29:06 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:
There is also some debate about the part relating to the flattop. Of this I have no idea if the information is correct or not. My take on it seems as if the BR2 author left alot out of the story. This was covered in some detail when BR2 came out by the 'players' in the Rifles & Uppers forum. If you're a Team Member search the Archive for the thread(s) and make up your own mind.



What word would I do a search on?

Does this relate to the argument of whom was first to think up the flat top, or who can take credit for the final dimension to the Picatinny rail adopted in 1995 or both?
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:35:49 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:
Mr Watters, do you know if the black buffer silver spring set up now standard in rifles is the same used in the port gun? We are also talking of such things in depth here:



That is an excellent question. Does anyone here have a copy of TM 9-1005-309-23&P that they can check?

Good work on the collection of the different extractor springs and inserts. I wish I could find the exact dates for their introduction for my 5.56mm Timeline.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 7:39:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By Forest:
There is also some debate about the part relating to the flattop. Of this I have no idea if the information is correct or not. My take on it seems as if the BR2 author left alot out of the story. This was covered in some detail when BR2 came out by the 'players' in the Rifles & Uppers forum. If you're a Team Member search the Archive for the thread(s) and make up your own mind.



What word would I do a search on?

Does this relate to the argument of whom was first to think up the flat top, or who can take credit for the final dimension to the Picatinny rail adopted in 1995 or both?



Dave Lutz (Coldblue) outlined his involvement in a thread titled "Picatinny Rail Origins."
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:13:05 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dewatters:
Dave Lutz (Coldblue) outlined his involvement in a thread titled "Picatinny Rail Origins."



Good memory on the thread tittle- I was going to say search on 'Coldblue' as a respondant (he doesn't post much so it should have been fairly easy to find).
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:14:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:
The most infamous is the picture on page xxi. Another is the mention of dropping the big hole trigger/disonnector/hammer pin holes on page 264.

To be fair, the late Ezell's book TBR also contains errors.



Elkie,
I'll have to go check my copy of BR2 - but didn't he also indicate the extended feed ramp came about due to the Mk262 round? Yet the ramps were in place years before the Mk262 was developed.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:48:27 PM EDT

yup, on closer examination, this appears to be an all colt thingie....as far as AR15s are

concerned. anyone else gets kiss and run. the commercial side gets no attention at all

(except for the good colonel)...........so what we really need is a BLACK RIFLE III ; kinda

along the lines of larry ruth's " war baby comes home " .....also a collector grade book.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:58:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/28/2005 7:11:47 AM EDT by Ekie]

Originally Posted By jaygee:
yup, on closer examination, this appears to be an all colt thingie....as far as AR15s are

concerned. anyone else gets kiss and run. the commercial side gets no attention at all

(except for the good colonel)...........so what we really need is a BLACK RIFLE III ; kinda

along the lines of larry ruth's " war baby comes home " .....also a collector grade book.



Don't hold your breath on Collector Grades covering Brand X. If you want a book on Brand X Duncon Long does that stuff.

EDIT:

Poyer also covers brand X.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 4:59:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Ekie:
The most infamous is the picture on page xxi. Another is the mention of dropping the big hole trigger/disonnector/hammer pin holes on page 264.

To be fair, the late Ezell's book TBR also contains errors.



Elkie,
I'll have to go check my copy of BR2 - but didn't he also indicate the extended feed ramp came about due to the Mk262 round? Yet the ramps were in place years before the Mk262 was developed.



No, it says they were developed for the M4 Carbine.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:12:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dewatters:

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By Forest:
There is also some debate about the part relating to the flattop. Of this I have no idea if the information is correct or not. My take on it seems as if the BR2 author left alot out of the story. This was covered in some detail when BR2 came out by the 'players' in the Rifles & Uppers forum. If you're a Team Member search the Archive for the thread(s) and make up your own mind.



What word would I do a search on?

Does this relate to the argument of whom was first to think up the flat top, or who can take credit for the final dimension to the Picatinny rail adopted in 1995 or both?



Dave Lutz (Coldblue) outlined his involvement in a thread titled "Picatinny Rail Origins."



Found it, I missed that thread. Got alot of reading to do.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:19:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By dewatters:

Originally Posted By Ekie:
Mr Watters, do you know if the black buffer silver spring set up now standard in rifles is the same used in the port gun? We are also talking of such things in depth here:



That is an excellent question. Does anyone here have a copy of TM 9-1005-309-23&P that they can check?

Good work on the collection of the different extractor springs and inserts. I wish I could find the exact dates for their introduction for my 5.56mm Timeline.



No, don't have that TM, am curious though. As you know the whole deal is that Big Army did not want to add another part to the system, so my understanding is that the blue one was used. Later the was a huge fight because Colt's wanted to use their gold spring M4 set up, and Big Army would not accept it till 2003. So, what was the story with the silver spring and black buffer used in between? My guess it was a part in the system, possibly the port gun set up?

In regards to dates on various springs/buffers, I can come close, but not to the standard you require in your time line. I am not done with the research though.

BTW, some or one of your NSN numbers is different then what is indicated in BR II. I bet Stottman could run those numbers for us.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 8:18:19 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Ekie:
The most infamous is the picture on page xxi. Another is the mention of dropping the big hole trigger/disonnector/hammer pin holes on page 264.

To be fair, the late Ezell's book TBR also contains errors.



Elkie,
I'll have to go check my copy of BR2 - but didn't he also indicate the extended feed ramp came about due to the Mk262 round? Yet the ramps were in place years before the Mk262 was developed.



No, it says they were developed for the M4 Carbine.



Ok I snuck by my sleeping wife to pull my copy of BR2 from the nitestand.

You are correct around page 70 it covers the feed ramps and the issues with the shape of the M855 bullet. It must have been another article I was thinking of.

For those wanting infor on brand X. BR2 does coverd Dieamaco (very interesting section I might add) and a bit on Armalite. I was hoping for some info (pro or con) on Bushmaster and the supposed Gulf War 1 sale.

The worst thing about the BR books is they make you want to go spend $$ (on the M14 book, the FAL book, and darn I need a plain-jane M4 carbine now....).
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 9:11:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Ok I snuck by my sleeping wife to pull my copy of BR2 from the nitestand.

You are correct around page 70 it covers the feed ramps and the issues with the shape of the M855 bullet. It must have been another article I was thinking of.

For those wanting infor on brand X. BR2 does coverd Dieamaco (very interesting section I might add) and a bit on Armalite. I was hoping for some info (pro or con) on Bushmaster and the supposed Gulf War 1 sale.

The worst thing about the BR books is they make you want to go spend $$ (on the M14 book, the FAL book, and darn I need a plain-jane M4 carbine now....).



No big deal, don't think any of us have the whole thing memorized.

I would not consider Diemaco brand X in the Canada did pay Colt's cash money for the rights. So it is not like they are making knock offs. On top of that Diemaco is a player in the internation small arms market.

The reason Bushmaster is not making the history books is that they have not produced any paper work supporting the idea that they are a DOD contractor for complete carbines. A DOD contract produces a bunch of paper work, so it is not like it would be hard to find.

I think the only reason ArmaLite is included is that the reintroduced the AR-10, and that is note worthy.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 6:34:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ekie:
No, don't have that TM, am curious though. As you know the whole deal is that Big Army did not want to add another part to the system, so my understanding is that the blue one was used. Later the was a huge fight because Colt's wanted to use their gold spring M4 set up, and Big Army would not accept it till 2003. So, what was the story with the silver spring and black buffer used in between? My guess it was a part in the system, possibly the port gun set up?

In regards to dates on various springs/buffers, I can come close, but not to the standard you require in your time line. I am not done with the research though.

BTW, some or one of your NSN numbers is different then what is indicated in BR II. I bet Stottman could run those numbers for us.



1) Your guess is as good as mine. I would not be surprised if they standardized on the M231 extractor spring assembly just to make everything uniform.

2) Fair enough. Let me know if you do.

3) BRII lists the older NSN. The NSN listed for the M16 is the blue insert, and the NSN listed for the M4 is the plain colored spring with the black insert. Even a quick Google search can confirm the numbers. The NSN for both of the black insert springs are listed in the December 2004 issue of PS. The NSN for the blue insert can be confirmed in the older TM hosted here at AR15.com.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 6:47:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dewatters:

1) Your guess is as good as mine. I would not be surprised if they standardized on the M231 extractor spring assembly just to make everything uniform.

2) Fair enough. Let me know if you do.

3) BRII lists the older NSN. The NSN listed for the M16 is the blue insert, and the NSN listed for the M4 is the plain colored spring with the black insert. Even a quick Google search can confirm the numbers. The NSN for both of the black insert springs are listed in the December 2004 issue of PS. The NSN for the blue insert can be confirmed in the older TM hosted here at AR15.com.



1) I bet there is still a NSN number in the system for the port gun, will check that out.

2) Will do.

3) OK, I was being lazy, thanks for the clarification.
Link Posted: 8/28/2005 7:23:50 AM EDT

Originally Posted By dewatters:
The NSN for both of the black insert springs are listed in the December 2004 issue of PS.



For those following at home you can find this at https://www.logsa.army.mil/pub/psissuesA/PS_625.pdf
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