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Posted: 12/28/2003 7:30:51 PM EDT
I'm in the process of building my new AR, however I'm tired to pulling the heavy and long triggers that come on factory AR's. I also don't want an adjustable trigger where something can come out of adjustment, is there anyone who makes such a beast?

Thanks Jerad
Link Posted: 12/28/2003 8:25:25 PM EDT
The best combat trigger is the factory trigger, it is fault proof and it is just right for combat.  if you have to have a match trigger of a combat rifle, I would highly recommand the Accuracy speak trigger which is a none adjustable single stage trigger setuo with out any allen set screw to mess with so you don't have uncle Murphy coming along for the ride during some kind of serious engagement.

I have two Accuracy speak trigger in my ARs.  
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:38:49 AM EDT
Stay with the factory trigger and work until you can use it well. It will repay you by being there for you when you really need it.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:48:56 AM EDT
I'll second SMGLee's recomendation of Accuracy Speaks trigger group. There are no adjustments and the units are built to mil-spec strength.

Derek Martin, who owns AS, is a national level competitor and a glazed-eyed fanatic on the subject of reliability.

Luck,

SD
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 5:42:27 AM EDT
My vote goes to the factory trigger.  Stone reliable, proven and in a combat situation I hightly doubt you'll be thinking about how smooth your trigger pull is [;)]
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 6:39:39 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4arc:
My vote goes to the factory trigger.  Stone reliable, proven and in a combat situation I hightly doubt you'll be thinking about how smooth your trigger pull is [;)]
View Quote



I agree 100%.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 7:47:52 AM EDT
I was hoping for some magic answer to the same question you are asking, but these guys are right. Once I got used to my trigger, and it got broke in a bit, I started to appreciate it much more.

There is a thread somewhere here that talks about breaking in a new trigger. I cant find it for the life of me but I tried out the technique and it seems to have worked pretty good.

I have heard mostly good things about the A.S. trigger, the only bad things I read were about some kind of problems installing them on certain lowers...but I can not remember the details.
Link Posted: 12/29/2003 4:32:22 PM EDT
Another vote for Accuracy Speaks.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:04:51 AM EDT
What if I'm trying to make a 100 yard shot? maybe I wouldn't want a 10 pound gritty trigger pull. Somehow "adjustable" has come to mean unreliable or somehow less suited for real-man stuff.  Haven't tried Accuracy Speaks trigger, but if you look at the description on his web site it states "some fitting required".  You can make the adjustments with files and sandpaper, or you can make them more easily and more accurately with a set screw.  Either way it can be done right or it can be done wrong.  That's the story.
-WhiteFox
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 7:29:48 AM EDT
Originally Posted By M4arc:
My vote goes to the factory trigger.  Stone reliable, proven and in a combat situation I hightly doubt you'll be thinking about how smooth your trigger pull is [;)]
View Quote

Another vote for factory trigger.  My Colt trigger is great, a bit heavy, but a good clean break.  Thats what I like. [coffee]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:30:24 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 8:30:44 AM EDT by Va_Dinger]
Originally Posted By WhiteFox:
maybe I wouldn't want a 10 pound gritty trigger pull. -WhiteFox
View Quote


I can't name a manufacturer who has a stock trigger that bad. Who made your rifle? Maybe your trigger could use a cleaning and some lubrication.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 8:30:30 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 8:31:10 AM EDT by Forest]
Originally Posted By WhiteFox:
What if I'm trying to make a 100 yard shot?
View Quote

So what if you are?

US Army soldiers make 300M qualification shots using stock triggers (and the M16A2 trigger sucks even worse).

US Marines make 500M qualification shots using stock triggers.

Go to any tactical shooting class and you'll see guys making 'barin pan' headshots (4"x2" box) at 50 yards with stock triggers.


maybe I wouldn't want a 10 pound gritty trigger pull. [/quoe]
Maybe when someone is shooting at you - you'll have other things on your mind rather than the terrible trigger pull.

[qutoe]
Somehow "adjustable" has come to mean unreliable or somehow less suited for real-man stuff.
View Quote

Beacuse 'real life experiences' and 'realistic training' have shown they are not up to the task.


or you can make them more easily and more accurately with a set screw.
View Quote

Love it when the set screws work themselves out at the worst time - small pieces of metal bouncing around in the fire control group do wonders for reliability and trigger pull.

(FYI LocTite doesn't always work either...)
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:15:26 AM EDT
buy a cheap AK (like an SAR1).  Shoot it for a few weeks.  Then go back to your AR, the trigger will be perfect.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:19:04 AM EDT
The mil-spec range for trigger pull is between 5.5 & 9.5 lbs so our troops have proved that a 9.5lbs trigger pull is acceptable when making 100 yard (and beyond) shots.

If I was going into combat or a SHTF situation I don't want an adjustable or accuracy trigger...I want a reliable trigger.  I believe there is a direct relation between accuracy and reliability.

YMMV

Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:19:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gullyfoyle:
buy a cheap AK (like an SAR1).  Shoot it for a few weeks.  Then go back to your AR, the trigger will be perfect.
View Quote


True, true [;)]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:12:45 AM EDT
Your not going to feel the trigger on a two way rifle range, so I wouldn't worry about it.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:19:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By gullyfoyle:
buy a cheap AK (like an SAR1).  Shoot it for a few weeks.  Then go back to your AR, the trigger will be perfect.
View Quote

[ROFL2]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:30:02 AM EDT
Stock factory.  

Dry fire it a lot.  My best factory trigger breaks around 6lbs, but its been worn silky smooth and more than does the job...RELIABLY.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:40:36 PM EDT
I agree that anything can be done right, or wrong.

An M61-A2 has about a bizillion friggin things that can go wrong in it, yet when it's time to protect the ship from inbounds, just flip it on and away you go.  Reliable?  Sure, provided they're maintained and actually TURNED ON.

With some of the lower-end, used, reconditioned etc hardware out there I wouldn't say the 'factory' trigger is where it's at either.  At least not JUST BECAUSE it's factory.  Now, a factory Bushy, Armalite etc trigger?  Probably is fine and for a "It must work" situation... may be the best choice.

HOWEVER, this doesn't mean it couldn't use some doctoring to be even better.  It doesn't -have- to be adjustable to make adjustments to it.  They're smaller, general smoothing etc but they count for something and shouldn't be dismissed.

A user-adjustable trigger (I mean one with set screws and the like) DOES HAVE more parts, moving and elsewise.  This means more things to break of course.  However, a well-maintained rifle means you look at your trigger ass'y from time to time and verify it's function and security.

So... how good is an adjustable for this situation?  I dunno.  How well was it made?  How well do you maintain it?

The simplest answer is to have some work done to a good factory trigger, and the KISS principle seems to apply to a combat situation to me.  So... this -is- probably the best bet.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 12:55:11 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Blackgun_Fun:
I was hoping for some magic answer to the same question you are asking, but these guys are right. Once I got used to my trigger, and it got broke in a bit, I started to appreciate it much more.

There is a thread somewhere here that talks about breaking in a new trigger. I cant find it for the life of me but I tried out the technique and it seems to have worked pretty good.
View Quote


Could you elaborate on what you did during break-in?  I'm in the same boat, having just got my first AR, a Bushmaster, stock trigger (not the DCM Match one).

Thanx,

jmart
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 1:59:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By bsbg:
Another vote for Accuracy Speaks.
View Quote


And another
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 2:23:02 PM EDT
Has anyone here had any trouble with the Knights two stage?
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 3:39:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By JC_:
Has anyone here had any trouble with the Knights two stage?
View Quote


I have had no trouble with mine - 2 semi's and 1 of the F/A units.

I also have one of the Accuracy Speaks and recommend them.

I have an RRA match trigger which is non-adjustable.

People have had problems with all triggers, even OEM, I think it comes down to proper installation and fit.  I don't know anyone who had problems with triggers with adjustment screws that had been properly loctited.

Why not stick with the stock trigger and get some lighter springs, and perform some minor break in/polishing, such as the 15 minute trigger job, and that will go a long way towards improving your trigger.  It seems the closer one gets to a really fine tuned trigger, the chance of failure seems to increase.

Even the Accuracy Speaks trigger must be properly fitted, but there are no adjustments, and absolutely no long pull.  It get's my vote for your needs.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 3:53:00 PM EDT
Originally Posted By jmart:
Originally Posted By Blackgun_Fun:
I was hoping for some magic answer to the same question you are asking, but these guys are right. Once I got used to my trigger, and it got broke in a bit, I started to appreciate it much more.

There is a thread somewhere here that talks about breaking in a new trigger. I cant find it for the life of me but I tried out the technique and it seems to have worked pretty good.
View Quote


Could you elaborate on what you did during break-in?  I'm in the same boat, having just got my first AR, a Bushmaster, stock trigger (not the DCM Match one).

Thanx,

jmart
View Quote


jmart - it took some digging but I found it. Check this link out for the instructions. It has worked well for me.

[url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/smoothenthetriggerpull.msnw[/url]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 4:10:30 PM EDT
I have a sure fire, can't miss solution for a 'gritty' trigger.

Take 1,000 rounds of quality ammo (XM193 or Q3131a will do fine) and your rifle to the range and stay there until you have fired every last round.

Your trigger will no longer be gritty. It might be filthy, so clean it, but it won't be gritty.

A side benefit of this exercise is loads of practice loading and swapping magazines.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 4:57:13 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Forest:
Beacuse 'real life experiences' and 'realistic training' have shown they are not up to the task.

Love it when the set screws work themselves out at the worst time - small pieces of metal bouncing around in the fire control group do wonders for reliability and trigger pull.

(FYI LocTite doesn't always work either...)
View Quote


So is that why the military uses a set screw trigger for combat?  I also must point out its a physical impossibility for the set screw to to "pop out and bounce around" in an AR15.  If you believe these things you need to go do some research.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:05:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 6:12:56 PM EDT by M4arc]
Originally Posted By DevL:
Originally Posted By Forest:
Beacuse 'real life experiences' and 'realistic training' have shown they are not up to the task.

Love it when the set screws work themselves out at the worst time - small pieces of metal bouncing around in the fire control group do wonders for reliability and trigger pull.

(FYI LocTite doesn't always work either...)
View Quote


So is that why the military uses a set screw trigger for combat?  I also must point out its a physical impossibility for the set screw to to "pop out and bounce around" in an AR15.  If you believe these things you need to go do some research.
View Quote


I did a little research on your statement that our military uses a set screw trigger for combat and after looking in the M16 & M4 Operators Manual and Mil-Spec manual I still have not found where those triggers use set screws.  I also looked up the replacement parts by NIIN and did not find any triggers with set screws.  Oh, the M16 trigger group that Bushmaster sells to the military doesn't have them either.

Of course, you may be referring to the low number of SPR's that are in service when compared to the millions of M16/M4's.  

Edited to add: I also looked in the Army/Air Force Technical Manual but had no luck finding it in there either.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:26:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 6:26:49 PM EDT by Boom_Stick]
Someone posted a home trigger job that works great for my rifles. I cant find the thread, but maybe someone else here knows where it is.

Cut 1/2 of the length off one of the hammer spring legs and polish the hammer/trigger pins and the sear engagement surfaces.  It doesn't take the length out of the pull but it makes it a heck of a lot smoother! Kind of like the difference between a 5lb and a 3.5lb Glock connector.

The advantages are that you’ll keep a combat trigger package and it’ll only cost a few bucks to replace the spring.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 6:30:24 PM EDT
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=170042[/url]
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 9:59:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2003 10:00:32 PM EDT by DevL]
The Crane built SPR uses a KAC 2 stage trigger.  They have two set screws.  The trigger had an NSN and was being used before the SPR as well.  The issue of why its issued in such small numbers is one of cost not ability.  The only people who I have heard bad mouth it are the ones who dont own one.  I have seen one reference to a guy who had one go single stage "on an op" but would not give any info concerning who he was with.  The trigger still fuctioned just fine though.  I dont think you will find anyone on this site who has had a trigger failure with a KAC 2 stage.  Several people here use the full auto version and have put thousands of rounds through their rifles with no trigger issues.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:37:10 AM EDT
Originally Posted By JC_:
Has anyone here had any trouble with the Knights two stage?
View Quote


I haven't heard of anyone.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:44:00 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DevL:
The Crane built SPR uses a KAC 2 stage trigger.  They have two set screws.  The trigger had an NSN and was being used before the SPR as well.  The issue of why its issued in such small numbers is one of cost not ability.  The only people who I have heard bad mouth it are the ones who dont own one.  I have seen one reference to a guy who had one go single stage "on an op" but would not give any info concerning who he was with.  The trigger still fuctioned just fine though.  I dont think you will find anyone on this site who has had a trigger failure with a KAC 2 stage.  Several people here use the full auto version and have put thousands of rounds through their rifles with no trigger issues.
View Quote


How many of those have been delivered to a combat zone and how many have actually been used, in the grand scheme of things it would amount to a statically insignificant number.  They may be very good triggers, but a few dozen or hundred rounds fired in combat really isn't a whole lot.
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 9:53:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Blackgun_Fun:
Originally Posted By jmart:
Originally Posted By Blackgun_Fun:
I was hoping for some magic answer to the same question you are asking, but these guys are right. Once I got used to my trigger, and it got broke in a bit, I started to appreciate it much more.

There is a thread somewhere here that talks about breaking in a new trigger. I cant find it for the life of me but I tried out the technique and it seems to have worked pretty good.
View Quote


Could you elaborate on what you did during break-in?  I'm in the same boat, having just got my first AR, a Bushmaster, stock trigger (not the DCM Match one).

Thanx,

jmart
View Quote


jmart - it took some digging but I found it. Check this link out for the instructions. It has worked well for me.

[url]http://groups.msn.com/TheMarylandAR15ShootersSite/smoothenthetriggerpull.msnw[/url]
View Quote


Thanks for digging that out.  Appreciate it.

jmart
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 8:41:43 PM EDT
Bought a new bushy, the trigger sucked. Got a RRA trigger from John Hollinger.....YEAAHH BABY

No screws or parts to f%$# up, just a Real Nice Trigger....!!!
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 3:11:32 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 3:39:27 AM EDT
Just because it works, doesnt mean it cant be improved. I know for a fact that military jeeps never had air conditioning. So, obviously, you should have no need for such foolish extravagance.

WTF! Are you guys trying to fight a fair fight?! I will take every single advantage I can get!
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 3:52:28 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 5:44:03 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Combat_Jack:
Just because it works, doesnt mean it cant be improved. I know for a fact that military jeeps never had air conditioning. So, obviously, you should have no need for such foolish extravagance.

WTF! Are you guys trying to fight a fair fight?! I will take every single advantage I can get!
View Quote


If your actually talking about going into combat vice fantasizing about it, its not going to matter a all that much because your not going to feel the trigger anyway.   But if your talking about tactical matches and rifle ranges than yes, a better trigger pull may help.





Link Posted: 1/2/2004 6:40:12 AM EDT
In a thrtead a couple of weeks ago Pat Rogers made a comment on 2 stage triggers people were using in his tactical class that entails shooting 700 rounds a day under hard use and he said those types of triggers lasted 1 to 2 days and he commented on how unnecesary modifications can bring a field rifle down.For a combat or shtf situations or general self defense stick with the standard parts and shoot alot.thats how a trigger gets smoother and you turn into a better shooter.If its a match rifle or a spr rifle then maybe but on a defensive weapon leave it alone.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:45:24 PM EDT
I gotta Hundred Bucks that says in combat you will not notice the trigger pull or travel.....its funny how adrenaline works when one is being shot at.......
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