What do you guys think is the best long range caliber and/or upper for the AR15 platform? Not limiting too, but including .223 and .308.
Dave

What distance do you consider "long range?" To different people it means different things.

300 yds....not limited to paper-punching[;)]

If 223 is your choice then I'd use a 20" barrel with a higher twist.  If accuracy is your game I'd get a 24" with a 1:7 twist and use some 77 grained lead.

Was going to respond .50 BMG - thought you meant 1000yds and beyond.

At 300, well there are plenty. Either .308 or .223 will work plenty good.  Liana Bombardier, a USAMU shooter, took the Atkins and Porter trophies this summer, and won the service rifle palma individual match, all with .223 - a m16A2 to boot. These were ranges out to 1000 yds. So you've got a pretty versatile platform with good infrastructure.

If your critiria is entirely performance dependent, Mk262 mod1 or even m193 fills the bill. SPR or the USMC SAM (desig been changed now - someone fix this) would be well within any expectation you could have at this range. I wouldnt feel Ill served with a M4 style upper. Most of the issues are shooter mechanics and not platform at this range.

Luck
Alac

.50 BMG for sure!

Pardon my ignorance, Alacrity,

Mk262 mod1

Dave

Mk 262 Mod O = 77 gr Sierra Match King
Mk 262 Mod 1 = 77 gr Nosler

[url=http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2003smallarms/bux.ppt]Mod 0 Powerpoint[/url]

.50 BMG

 300 yds would actually be considered short to intermediate range in terms of rifles.  In the Marines, it is important for a sniper to be reasonably consistent with his rifle out to 1000 yds.  And seconding what others have said previously on this thread, the Ar15/m16 platform can be superb out to these distances.  I would recommend careful ammunition choice; remember that you really get what you pay for.  If you really want a rifle that can engage nearly any conceivable combat range (not to mention take out elephants if you need it to), .50's the way to go.  You can get good with a .308 or .3006 rifle, only to realize later down the road when you're much more skilled that you wish you had a rifle that hit much harder out to those distances.  I'm not trying to dog the lesser rifle calibers, but I am always waiting for the day when I'll actually need to use an anti-materiel rifle [:D].
 For me, the .50 will do everything I need it to hunting-wise, and it's always nice to have that little extra assurance that if the other kind of elephant was besieging me with a light-armored vehicle, I would stand a chance, at least [sniper].

Just my 2¢

No reason to beg pardon - but the questions already been answered.

Tho its not just the weight or bullet that makes the round - meaning if I handloaded some 77 grain Noslers I wouldnt expect all the "performance" of the Mk262 mod1 round. But it wouldnt be at all bad either. Check under Ammunition, AR15.com resident experts, Tatjana and Brouhaha have done a bang up job on the subject.

Anyone know what the USMC is calling the SAM now? Bothers me I cant recall - TIA.

These folks recommending .50BMG - its all true, but I assumed you wish to be mobile or at least non-herniated. Your not wanting to limit criteria to just paper punching led me to this assumption.

Cant beleive Brouhaha didnt mention the 6.8x43 - thought it was his pet, then again its not readily available. The 6.5 Grendel would be an option as well. Not sure either would get you appreciably more than you get with the 77gr .223, but Im not unhappy with m193 either. It'd do in a pinch.

Luck
Alac

Thanks to all who have replied. I apologize for being so vague...however every question asked on here draws a tremendous amount of response...all good I might add! My original thoughts were to uppers to mount on an existing lower.
Thanks,
Dave

A hard hitter that is accurate to 400+, try the .50 Beowulf or .499 Leitner-Wise.

The Beowulf is manufactured by Alexander Arms (http://www.alexanderarms.com)who has customer service issues and the .499 is made by Leitner-Wise (www.leitner-wise.com/products/499.htm)
I have a Beowulf and it gets the job done! I've used it to shoot a 200 lb. FL feral hog and it dropped in its tracks.

I know you are asking about AR15 uppers but I just wanted to weigh in.  Just wait a few months and someone will develop an upper that uses the .338 Lapua.  This round is getting extremely popular for long range distance shooting.  Check out the article here:  [url]http://www.snipercentral.com/338.htm[/url].

Armalite makes the AR30 which shoots this round.  [url]http://www.armalite.com/sales/catalog/rifles/ar30.htm[/url]

How much does the entry .50  Beowulf upper run?  And is it really an effective round?  I know its big, but does it perform?

If you are talking about just pure target shooting, there are tonsof options. If you are talking about any hunting application, the .338 Lapua is probably not a good choice. Not that it is a good choice anyway!

It is extremely expensive to get match grade ammo and unless you handload, everything will be very expensive to shoot this round. You can accomplish many of the same things the Marine Snipers do with a .300 WinMag.

Of course, if you want to stay with an AR, you can shoot an Armalite AR10 for a lot less money that their AR30, and Olympic is 'supposed' to come out with a .300 WSM by Spring.

"How much does the entry .50 Beowulf upper run? And is it really an effective round? I know its big, but does it perform? "

Yes, it does perform! The 1 hog I have killed with it acted as if he was hit by a truck. Bullet expansion was a tad over .770". Accuracy from my rifle is <1" at 100 yds, 1.75" @200, and 3.3" @ 300. All groups are 3-shots, bench rested.

Recoil is on a par with a 20-gauge shotgun with heavy field loads.

Check out Impact Guns (www.impactguns.com) for prices. I got mine through a friend and got it at his wholesale price. I've seen the "Entry" upper as low as $550, complete with bolt and charging handle.

I hope you mean 400+ [b]feet[/b].

Those large heavy bullets are going to drop like a rock after about 200yd.

Big Bore AR15's like the .458SOCOM, .50 Beowulf and .499 Leitner-Wise are best at short/medium range.

THE king for the platform (ar10, not ar15) IMHO is the SSK .300 WSM AR-10.

see -> [url]www.sskindustries.com/atlantis/ar10.html[/url]

--LS

Anyone have a ballistics table on .50 Beowulf, couldnt find one but cant be much different than 45/70 400gr. 200 yd zero = -20 300yd, -60 odd 400 yd. Do-able out to 300, not my first choice but do-able.

Not sure exactly what advantage, barring terminal performance, these esoteric cartriges have vs. .308 or even .223.  Both seem to be adequate, although I'd readily admit overkill is not a bad thing in this case. But throw in cost, caliber support and weight, Im not sold. Throw a dog a bone hear and give me some reasoning behind the choice.

Luck
Alac

Alacrity,

[url]http://www.alexanderarms.com/beoammo.html[/url]

Bottom of the page you will find a "Graph of Path" link. I think all three "Big Bore" versions have about the same trajectory.

Benefits?

About the same use at the 45/70 you mentioned, but with 10 rounds in a quick change mag. Nice hog gun. Bear, well I don't want to get that close, but whatever floats you boat. Useful for defeating hordes of Zombie T-Rex Grizzlies!

For professionals, I think its similar to a slug shotgun with high cap mags and [url=www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=174293&w=myTopicPop] suppressible.[/url] IMHO, a nice entry weapon. Similar to the .500 SW round but semi auto or full auto capable. Plus frangible for those areas where you don't want ricochets like inside the hull of a ship, aircraft, or building. Some bad guys are as large as some bears. Use appropriate tools. [:D]

--LS

The 6.8 is going to be worth the wt :)

Jack

Longrange Thanks - not sure how I missed that. 100 yd intersection but roughly 45/70 curve.

I like the 45/70. Marlin 1895G is a great gun, and Ill bet Im the only guy on here that got excited about the Winchester 1886-EL. But I cant get excited about the big bore AR rounds. They make sense. Esp the .499LW for the CoastGuard, they do plenty of entries (boardings). Helluva a short range round. But they just dont seem very versatile.

Ive shot quite a bit of .308 and .223; they'll do anything anyone would want accuracy wise, within reason. Out to 300yds Im not uncomfortable with either - even with 55gr M193. Is it getting shy by then, sure but Im not volunteering to be down range. You can run everything from 40gr BllitzKing to 80gr railroad spikes. Theres a huge support network and the ammo, mags, accessories etc are plentiful, cheap and proven.

I can see some debate between .308 and .223 but Im at a loss when all these esoterics get mentioned. Hell, I cant see most folks being able to afford to shoot enough to to scale up skill. The operative parameter was 300 yards - I just havent heard any compelling reason - in either thread - to discard the original (AR15/10) calibers at this distance. The 6.8 may be different - from what Ive seen (tho not much)it improves deficiencies of both without serious compromises. If it ends up the official cartridge, = cheap/supported, it'll be hard to beat.

Really not trying to stir the shit here, and think alot of us are on the same page. Its just I cant see whats wrong with the boring old .223 with this requirement.

That SSK .300WSM is nice. I should pony up for one, or an AR10 in 6.5-08 or 6.5x51 LPR. They just dont seem that much better.

Luck
Alac

Edited to say: Longrange just saw that .458 you got on another thread - I really dont need one but thats too damn cool

If money isn't a problem for you there is always the RND edge in .338Lapua Mag.  It is a AR type rifle and is semi auto.  I'll see if I can dig up a picture.

Got'm

[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p2a5ade541d21f7482265202c5c4f150b/fa922219.jpg.orig.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/pb86a2f18c6c1bb099bdaf800880117b2/fa92224c.jpg[/img]
[img]http://www.imagestation.com/picture/sraid88/p516d3974cd8e92be9fa43a74bea2e3bd/fa92224f.jpg[/img]

You concider 300yds. long range?  Ok...   Just about anything then, the .223 works great. The .308 works even better, and well... w/e.

Open Sights on my M4 i could hit 9/10 body sized targets at 300yds. no sweat (prone or standing). If you have optics well their should be less emphasis on caliber and more on the enitre weapon system, because it won't matter what round it is if your throwing it down the wrong tube bolted to a block of wood.


J  

The .338 Lapua has my vote, I have a Sako TRG 42 chambered in that caliber. Targets at 1200+ Meters are no problem. At 500 Meters it will penetrate 3/4" of hardened steel with AP bullets. It is a hard hitting round.It has over 5000 lbs of energy at the muzzle. I have heard that Barrett was designing a machine gun similar to an M60 chambered in the .338 Lapua, what an A** kicker that would be.
At 300 yards pretty much any rifle caliber will work though, .223 should be fine anything bigger is a bonus.