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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 11/9/2003 6:41:36 AM EDT
What do you guys think is the best long range caliber and/or upper for the AR15 platform? Not limiting too, but including .223 and .308.
Dave
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 6:45:47 AM EDT
what distances are you talking about? 300m? 600m?
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 6:54:41 AM EDT
300 yds....not limited to paper-punching[;)]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 7:17:11 AM EDT
you can never go wrong with .50bmg![:D]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 7:34:39 AM EDT
The best - .338 Lapua, but I don't think anyone makes an AR upper in that caliber... Out to 300 yds, the .223 w/ 77gr OTM can hold its own.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 8:09:55 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 8:11:02 AM EDT by Alacrity]
Edited: Same topic is posted in Uppers Subforum, in case, like I, you are easily confused.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 9:28:53 AM EDT
I second Lockedon... the .50BMG. In sight=in range. [x]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 10:22:14 AM EDT
This is sort of an odd question, given the number of variables. But I would say .308 for precision shooting at 300 yards. Obviously, .50BMG is better if you are trying to kill your assailant's BTR. ~AbM
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 10:32:44 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bsbg: The best - .338 Lapua, but I don't think anyone makes an AR upper in that caliber...
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I don't know an AR upper in .338 Lapua but there IS a complete AR made in .338 Lapua. 5sub
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:11:23 AM EDT
I wish RND Manufacturing would keep their damn webpage up, or atleast make it a little more indepth covering that which they do offer. Used to be you got a little bit of information from there on the rifles they made but now it's stripped down to just a front page.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:16:06 AM EDT
Yesterday, under failing light, I was able (before light ran out) to shoot a 3 round, 0.5" group at 300 yds with my PSS .308 using Fed. Gold medal. But, if you're wanting something for LONG range, then the .408 CheyTac has eclipsed the .338 Lapua in performance. (Price too)
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 11:23:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 11:25:40 AM EDT by SHIVAN]
.408 CheyTac......as brouhaha has correctly pointed out is one of the absolute best ultralong range rounds. IIRC, it holds the 2400yd record at a 19" group size. .338 Lapua and .50 BMG are also quite good. 300yds is not long range that is intermediate and a 308 would do just peachy for a cross between low controllable recoil and accuracy. The 300winmag might be better from a heavy projectile to buck the winds at 300yds, but hell 77gr .223's do it just fine. YMMV...... ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ However, to answer your question my guess is a .308 in an AR10{T} would be the "best" from an AR platform.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 3:19:00 PM EDT
Not to sound like an ass but when or where has the 408CheyTac actually been demonstrated to be the epitome of long range cartridges? I ask this because on and off again for the past 4 years I've seen claims made about the round on various forums where long range shooting buffs hang out. Problem is the claims were always being made by people affiliated with the 408CheyTac round, things such as "no normal scope available to match the capabilities of this cartridge" and similar types of claims. Now just going off of the dimensions of the round it's pretty easy to see that it has potential. My problem is that whenever requests are made for the seller(seem to recall people referring to a "Dean") to bring out this wonder rifle and cartridges so that the performance can be demonstrated, the usual response is something along the lines of "Buy one and find out". Ofcourse promoting a product is just part of doing business but there are a lot of folks who seem to be wanting trigger time behind the rifle/cartridge BEFORE they invest the type of money neccesary to actually own one. It's not like solid core machined bullets is a relatively new thing unique to the 408CheyTac either, been done for a long time and not just by the LBT folks. I'd like to believe everything that has been said about the 408CheyTac but it doesn't seem like enough 3rd party evaluations have been done yet. Worse, when certain inviduals who apparently hold enough creditials to give the rifle/cartridge a full testing request to evaluate the rifle/cartridge they eventually get shot down. It's a fairly interesting thing to watch take place from time to time on certain forums. Until it gets hashed out, I'm gonna have to say 338Lapua for anti-personel and 50BMG for anti-material long distance shooting. That's off on a tangent though away from the intent of the thread for AR chamberings. For a long range AR chambering, I'm gonna have to say an AR10 T in 308Winchester or possibly an accurized AR10 in 260Remington. Ofcourse the 300SRUM upper will be out from Armalite soon.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 3:37:57 PM EDT
Originally Posted By uglygun: Not to sound like an ass but when or where has the 408CheyTac actually been demonstrated to be the epitome of long range cartridges? I ask this because on and off again for the past 4 years I've seen claims made about the round on various forums where long range shooting buffs hang out. Problem is the claims were always being made by people affiliated with the 408CheyTac round, things such as "no normal scope available to match the capabilities of this cartridge" and similar types of claims. Now just going off of the dimensions of the round it's pretty easy to see that it has potential. My problem is that whenever requests are made for the seller(seem to recall people referring to a "Dean") to bring out this wonder rifle and cartridges so that the performance can be demonstrated, the usual response is something along the lines of "Buy one and find out". Ofcourse promoting a product is just part of doing business but there are a lot of folks who seem to be wanting trigger time behind the rifle/cartridge BEFORE they invest the type of money neccesary to actually own one. It's not like solid core machined bullets is a relatively new thing unique to the 408CheyTac either, been done for a long time and not just by the LBT folks. I'd like to believe everything that has been said about the 408CheyTac but it doesn't seem like enough 3rd party evaluations have been done yet. Worse, when certain inviduals who apparently hold enough creditials to give the rifle/cartridge a full testing request to evaluate the rifle/cartridge they eventually get shot down. It's a fairly interesting thing to watch take place from time to time on certain forums. Until it gets hashed out, I'm gonna have to say 338Lapua for anti-personel and 50BMG for anti-material long distance shooting. That's off on a tangent though away from the intent of the thread for AR chamberings. For a long range AR chambering, I'm gonna have to say an AR10 T in 308Winchester or possibly an accurized AR10 in 260Remington. Ofcourse the 300SRUM upper will be out from Armalite soon.
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[url]http://www.militarycity.com/blackwater/blackwater3.html[/url] [url]http://www.snipercountry.com/Articles/408CheyTac.htm[/url] I'm sure there are plenty of people to see it...maybe not normal folks like us though. [XX(] I believe the record group is recorded and documented though I can't seem to find the reference at the moment. It is what it is...
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 3:45:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 3:53:06 PM EDT by DevL]
I would say a .223 even with heavy match bullets is strained at 300 yards to buck wind. I was shooting a sub MOA rifle and could only get under 2 MOA because of horizontal stringing due to the high winds with 75 grain ammo. While every shot I made would have been a head shot with the proper hold over, the .308 just does not deflect as much when real world factors, like wind, come into play. Brouhaha still kicked my butt with 168 grain GMM vs Black Hills 75 grain match at 300 yards.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 3:47:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 3:49:02 PM EDT by uglygun]
Here's one of the most recent snipercountry.com accounts of past 408CheyTac debates that I can easily find. Just do a search with Ctrl+F with the search criteria "408" to get a gander at some of it. I've seen it come off and on over the past few years on that forum alone, comes up from time to time on the biggerhammer 50cal forum as well as one or two others. There are goings on in the DutyRoster archieves that aren't apparent in the articles&commentary regarding the 408CheyTac. [url]http://www.snipercountry.com/roster/AllArchives/duty042003.asp[/url]
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:03:14 PM EDT
Quite honestly that sounds like a bunch of McUzi, Hinelines, and norman74's doing a giant circle jerk on every topic under the sun. I could only stand about 5 pages or so.....[whacko] Very non-linear....if it doesn't do what it claims, then the group must be bullshit, though it stands -- I've seen it in print some damn place, but can't find it at the moment. It is what it is. It showed up at Blackwater for many many writers to see.......
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:16:15 PM EDT
.50 for 300 yards? .408 for 300 yards? .338 for 300 yards? Just a little overkill [u]but I like it![/u][frag] I have a .50 and I wouldn't waste ammo on a 300 yard shot unless it was my ex-wife holding up her alimony check (shooting at the check of course). I would go AR-10(T) 168gr. GMM or handload. Great accuracy, inexpensive, low punishment, but still plenty of energy for much further. The articles supplied by the links are a great read. I didn't know that much about the .408.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:37:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/9/2003 4:42:52 PM EDT by uglygun]
Originally Posted By SHIVAN: Quite honestly that sounds like a bunch of McUzi, Hinelines, and norman74's doing a giant circle jerk on every topic under the sun. I could only stand about 5 pages or so.....[whacko] Very non-linear....if it doesn't do what it claims, then the group must be bullshit, though it stands -- I've seen it in print some damn place, but can't find it at the moment. It is what it is. It showed up at Blackwater for many many writers to see.......
View Quote
Well, like I said, it does look like the round could have some real potential. Good action, good barrel, and great bullets typically makes wonderous things happen with any cartridge. What I can't quite get or have yet to see an example of, is why hasn't something like a known performer like an Accuracy International or something like a custom Mauser action been chambered to test the 408CheyTac round itself? Any links for evaluations done on the cartridge itself outside of a firearm with the Windrunner design? I've been there to see the 408CheyTac fights come and go for a LONG time. It's not just summed up by posting that one little thread. I can't help but wonder if the Blackwater thing is going to finally help clear up some of the 408CheyTac arguments, whether it dispels the positive or negative arguments I could hardly care less. But there is a fair amount of controversy over not just the cartridge but about those trying to sell it, that alone should be enough to make people take notice if they are seriously considering the round. When has a rifle/cartridge platform generated so much controversy, especially among a group that would love nothing more than to see it perform as advertised? The Duty Roster bulletin board is set up rather strangely so it is a bit hard to follow. Kinda a thing where you have to stick with it over time inorder to glean anything, can't just hop in and find a thread/topic and get all that there is to say on a subject. Kinda annoying at first but once you get used to it then it ain't quite so bad.
Link Posted: 11/9/2003 4:41:08 PM EDT
Brouhaha's 3 shot group at 300 yards. Note: You must not hit the orange or you fail to qualify to shoot a t longer distances at our local range. You must dope wind and drop correctly to make it count [;)] [img]www.btammolabs.com/images/3shot300yds.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 6:57:14 AM EDT
perhaps the new 6.8x43mm
Link Posted: 11/10/2003 12:29:39 PM EDT
How do you like the ballistics chart on the .300 & .270 WSM loads? Olympic Arms is coming out with these in their guns by Spring. My local FFL is a competitor and uses a 20" .223 AR out to 700 yards and a 24" out to 1000 yards.
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 7:31:12 AM EDT
Don't forget the 6.5x284
Link Posted: 11/11/2003 10:47:03 AM EDT
DevL - the whole concept of what your range does limits one ability to learn to shoot long - it certainly is not within the spirit of helping shooters learn to shoot and perpetuating shooting as a competitive endevor - you may want to have a discussion with the board or ownership about that. doolittle - .223 has won the Candian F Class championships several times. 300 is not a long shot by any means. However, you were talking about "paper punching and other". While the .223 / 5.56 certainly *can* have the energy necessary to do the deed at 300 and beyond a heavier caliber has a better odds. From my own personal experience a 5.56 has difficulty opening and closing the "boxes" on my MGM target - [url]http://www.mgmtargets.com/precision.htm[/url] at 350 yrds. A .308 is still rockin the target hard at 850 yrds. Good luck
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