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Posted: 12/30/2003 10:41:28 PM EDT
we will get rid of our old assorted 9mm ammos this New Years Eve into our target range :->  we are planning to purchase new ammos for our Mp5 for 2004;  please share your suggestions.  thanks

HAPPY NEW YEAR!!!!!!!!!!!!
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 4:08:29 AM EDT
Federal 124 gr. +P+ Hydra-shok.  1,250 fps from a pistol, you should get close to 1,350 fps from the MP-5's.  If you have some SD's or detachable suppressors, get some 147 for those special occasions.

VSP
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 10:34:34 AM EDT
RA9124N

Nato ball for training.
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 11:53:39 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2003 4:16:17 PM EDT
SXT 147
Hydrashok 124 or 147
Gold Dots

As above, skip +p rounds. They offer improved performance but may hurt MP5's. If possible, try to chrono the rounds you try so as to pick one that takes advantage of the extra barrel inches (versus handgun)
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 9:11:41 AM EDT
win 147gr SXT.  From what I've been reading, higher muzzle velocity doesn't give you that much advantage in pistol caliber rounds.  I know people like to quote sources, but I don't have it off the top of my head, but too much MV will can cause petals to bend back too far.  I like using the test data between the .357sig(higher mv) to the "heavier" 147gr stuff.  Not much difference.  Heavier & slower seems to be the common theme from ballistics experts.  do a search here and at the tactical forums site.      
Link Posted: 1/1/2004 4:38:58 PM EDT
When I was a member of a Buffalo-NY area club, they rented the range to various Fed and local LE, including FBI, Postal Service, Secret Service, Tonawanda PD..

I know there was a lot of MP-5 use, and would go pick up lots of Win NATO stamped 9mm, plain Federal 124's, some R-P 124's (picked up numerous droppped live ammo).

Local LE SRT uses Federal Hydra-Shocks, found this out in a "Citizen Academy" thing local PD held.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 5:49:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2004 6:06:32 AM EDT by VSP]
Troy,
   I agree with you. A steady diet of the 124 +P+ will tend to loosen things up.  I was only addressing operational needs.  For training, any 124 ball will do along with a some of the +P+ loads to keep you familiar with its characteristics.  
   I would be very careful about the 147's.  Our department switched to the 124's after we had to shoot a guy 24 times.  The point man on the stack had a SD with 147 Hydra-shok's.  Dude decided to come out the door with a shotgun and surprise our team.  Point man fired a burst of 5 rounds.  All hit the bad guy and knocked him back a step.  He yelled and raised the shotgun up again.  Our guy pinned the trigger and fired 19 more rounds.  The second burst knocked the shotgun out of the bad guys hands and he staggered back another couple of steps.  By this time the rest of the team had started coming abreast of our point man and started to get into a firing line.  Bad guy (still standing) sees this and takes off running into the woods.  We had to chase him and a K-9 finally brought him down.  He still fought our attempts to cuff him.  Long story short, he took 19 hits, 14 of which entered and exited his chest without any expansion. The others were extremity hits (one took off half of his manhood, ouch!).  Took a couple hits in the lungs, but nothing more serious.  Next day all the news agencies starting asking why we had to shoot this man 24 times.  We chronographed the ammo and it turned out the SD slowed the 147's down to about 750 fps. One month later, 124 +P+'s for duty ammo.

VSP
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 6:13:32 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VSP:
Troy,
   I agree with you. A steady diet of the 124 +P+ will tend to loosen things up.  I was only addressing operational needs.  For training, any 124 ball will do along with a some of the +P+ loads to keep you familiar with its characteristics.  
   I would be very careful about the 147's.  Our department switched to the 124's after we had to shoot a guy 24 times.  The point man on the stack had a SD with 147 Hydra-shok's.  Dude decided to come out the door with a shotgun and surprise our team.  Point man fired a burst of 5 rounds.  All hit the bad guy and knocked him back a step.  He yelled and raised the shotgun up again.  Our guy pinned the trigger and fired 19 more rounds.  The second burst knocked the shotgun out of the bad guys hands and he staggered back another couple of steps.  By this time the rest of the team had started coming abreast of our point man and started to get into a firing line.  Bad guy (still standing) sees this and takes off running into the woods.  We had to chase him and a K-9 finally brought him down.  He still fought our attempts to cuff him.  Long story short, he took 19 hits, 14 of which entered and exited his chest without any expansion. The others were extremity hits (one took off half of his manhood, ouch!).  Took a couple hits in the lungs, but nothing more serious.  Next day all the news agencies starting asking why we had to shoot this man 24 times.  We chronographed the ammo and it turned out the SD slowed the 147's down to about 750 fps. One month later, 124 +P+'s for duty ammo.

VSP
View Quote

Well, since each shooting involves many variables and the biggest is who is getting shot, I would probable guess the same effect with what ever you shot him with. I would have doubted that your current 124s would have been anymore effective on that one individual.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 9:48:13 AM EDT
Originally Posted By VSP:
One month later, 124 +P+'s for duty ammo.
View Quote


I hope you have a nice supply of rollers and you consistently check headspace.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:56:40 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 8:29:56 PM EDT
Troy,
   Once again, I agree with your assessment.  This happened around 1997 and at the time I don't think there were a whole lot of other options.  I remember our agency had looked at Winchester Silvertips, but somebody with more horsepower than me made the final decision.  You have to appreciate this is a large State agency with a strong para-military organizational structure.  The Colonel didn't like the questions that were being asked by the press and said change the ammo, now.  I also remember Federal coming in after we called them and basically bitched about the crappy performance of the 147's and trying to smooth things over.  The main reason we got the +P+ 124's was because Federal offered to switch out the rest of our 147's, even up for the +P+ 124's, which amounted to probably several hundred thousands of rounds (The round was also our duty pistol round in our P-228 Sigs), even though the 124's cost more per box.  I don't know about the higher wear on the MP's, but I'm sure Federal told us it wouldn't hurt them. But then again, I'm sure they would have told us anything we wanted to hear to keep from losing that contract (although they eventually did).  I think around 1999 we switched over to 40 cal. MP-5's and it became academic.  We shot several thousands of rounds through the MP's with the +P+ without any problems, but maybe we got rid of them before they started getting too loose.  My original point was to just be careful if you're considering the 147's.  They tend to really overpenetrate.  I do believe that if we had the +P+ 124's on that day it would have made a difference.  I feel they would have expanded and cause a lot more damage to the lungs and other extremeties as opposed to the 9mm ice-pick effect we experienced.  Just my opinion.  Once again, it's academic.  I left the agency in 2002 and the month I left, our Federal Homeland Security anti-terrorism grant came through and we got Colt M-4's for the whole agency.  Semi's for the regular guys and FA for the Tactical teams.    
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 8:41:27 PM EDT
SD's are notorious for dropping the velocity of rounds enough so that they do not expand.  As discussed in the AFTE Journal, Kern County SO SWAT documented a 1998 entry incident where they hit a suspect 7 times with Federal 115 gr JHP from an SD.  None of the bullets expanded; 6 of the rounds exited the suspect the seventh lodged against L2.  Whether 115 gr, 147 gr, or another weight, suppresssed MP5's, especially the SD can significantly alter bullet terminal performance.  

It is STRONGLY recommended that agencies exercise due dilligence and adequately test their duty load performance from each weapon BEFORE a shooting incident occurs, to ensure there are no surprises.
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 9:02:12 PM EDT
if i am not mistken....the mp5sd will work even if you do not use subsonic round in them (147grs.)   and also (HKPRO) mentioned that the mp5sd will greatly reduce the knockdown power of the slow 147 grs.    

if the 147 grs. is notorius for overpenetration...maybe thats the one we looking for :->   for our mp5a3;  because there will be chances we be shooting bad guys in automobile (windshield)...  

Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:17:16 PM EDT
ANY 9 mm JHP can "overpenetrate" when fired from the SD.  In general, the 147 gr is not notorious for overpenetration, at least not when properly designed ammunition is used--the better 147 gr loads have not had any problems and are working extremely well in HUNDREDS of actual shootings; conversely, the bad 147 gr loads, just like the bad 115 gr and 124 gr loads regularly fail.  Handgun bullets, by their very nature, offer marginal performance. For every available load, single incidents can be found where they have failed. A scientifically valid analysis of a larger sample size is the best way to assess bullet field performance. For example, San Diego PD switched to the 9mm 147 gr JHP when their lighter weight, higher velocity 9mm 115 gr JHP bullets had several failures to penetrate deeply enough to create damage to vital organs in the torso and cause rapid incapacitation. The largest independently verified study of bullet penetration and expansion characteristics in living human tissue has shown the 9mm 147 gr JHP to offer acceptable performance in law enforcement lethal force confrontations. A senior criminalist with the San Diego P.D., Mr. Eugene J. Wolberg, has analyzed their 9 mm 147 gr JHP performance in 10% ordnance gelatin and compared the laboratory results with the actual terminal effects produced in human tissue in nearly 150 officer involved shootings with the San Diego Police Department. When I last spoke with Mr. Wolberg in May of 2000, the majority of their bullets had penetrated 13 to 15 inches and expanded between 0.60 to 0.62 inches in both human tissue and 10% ordnance gelatin. This appears to be ideal performance from a 9mm. Other large California agencies who have experience with the 9mm 147 gr JHP, such as Los Angeles PD, Los Angeles SO, Ontario PD, San Jose PD, Santa Clara PD, San Mateo SO, Santa Clara SO (prior to switching to .40 S&W), and San Francisco PD (prior to switching to .40 S&W) have had similar results. These and other California agencies which have successfully used the 9mm 147 gr JHP have thousands of officers with hundreds of officer involved shootings. Perhaps the documented success of the 9mm 147 gr JHP in California is a result of differing laws of physics on the West Coast than in other areas. Unfortunately, that conjecture does not stand up to scrutiny as the extensive Royal Canadian Mounted Police studies determined that the 9mm 147 gr JHP was the most effective load for the caliber. In addition, during the ammunition trials for the M11 pistol (military Sig P228) done at NSWC Crane, the Federal 147gr JHP (9MS) was selected as the issue load for the M11, beating a variety of other 9mm JHP loads, including both standard pressure and +P pressure 115 gr and 124 gr JHP’s. This same load was also procured by the military for use by some units authorized to issue JHP ammunition with their 9 mm weapons, such as the Sig P226 and MP-5N.
---------------------------------
Good 9 mm loads are available in a variety of bullet weights--pick the one most reliable and accurate out of your service weapons that still offers acceptable terminal performance for your needs.  The following 9 mm loads have all demonstrated outstanding terminal performance:

Barnes/Taurus 105 gr JHP (copper bullet)
Fed 124 gr JHP (LE9T1)
Speer 124 gr +P JHP (53617)
Win 124 gr JHP (RA91P)
Win 127 gr +P+ JHP (RA9TA)
Fed 135 gr +P JHP (LE9T5)
Rem 147 gr JHP (GS9MMC)
Speer 147 gr JHP (53619)
Win 147 gr JHP (RA9T)
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 10:31:57 PM EDT
thanks for the very informative facts sir....im just wondering you did not mention the BlackHills 9mm ammos?   thank you again sir
Link Posted: 1/2/2004 11:32:33 PM EDT
Obviously, clone loads using the same bullet at the same velocity work equally well (ie. Black Hills ammo using Gold Dot bullets, etc…)
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 2:52:59 AM EDT
thank you so much again sir!   :->   what about the possibility of shooting the tires of the BG's...(bad guys)...im a former believer of using FMJ in shooting them effectively:->   have you came across some studies regarding this? and also windshields which is a common test in selecting .223 or .308 ammos..
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 1:32:09 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 2:05:03 PM EDT
1.)Federal 147gr JHP
2.)Federal 115 JHP(9BP)or the +P LE(9BPLE)..one of the most accurate loads available in 9mm for most Pistols and Subguns also has a 91%+ stop rate on the streets. This was the CA State standard load until agencies started going to the .40 S&W or the heavier 9mm loads
Link Posted: 1/3/2004 9:54:16 PM EDT
Originally Posted By paltik:
thank you so much again sir!   :->   what about the possibility of shooting the tires of the BG's...(bad guys)...im a former believer of using FMJ in shooting them effectively:->   have you came across some studies regarding this? and also windshields which is a common test in selecting .223 or .308 ammos..
View Quote


The bonded construction of the RA9T 147 will allow it to penetrate windshield glass and retain mass as well or better than any other hollowpoint 9mm made.  The FMJ rounded nose will not produce as clean a hole in a tire (or tissue if the bullet does not expans) as the nose of the RA9T.  You can see a similar effect when shooting paper.  The sharper edges cut a cleaner hole rather than spreading the material and letting it slip by and close back up behind the bullet.  If you go do some research on the RA9T you will find its the best overall 9mm round made.
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