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Posted: 1/3/2003 12:04:17 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/3/2003 12:08:15 PM EDT by Green0]
I apologize for the previous post.

I was trying to convince people to save their money and instead Buy CHEAP Olyarms complete cast lowers with a smooth black finish for $60.

I went to the TS site and looked at the pictures and thought I was looking at a high quality product.

When they arrived I realized that (these CMM) recievers had all kinds of wierd mold marks on them and had the trigger guard casted in.

There was not enough room in the casting to properly convert these to mil-spec winter/folding triggerguards (I KNOW NO-ONE USES THESE BUT THEY ARE TO ME AN AR-15 THING AND THESE ARE WIERD WITHOUT THEM) If I converted I would not have enough metal to secure a trigger guard pin in without worrying about suseptability to damage.

Then I noticed that the finish (I ordered mine pre-anodized) Was not at all nice

It was a black finish that was not smooth it was instead very rough like it had been sandblasted.

I then began work and realized that this aluminum worked like MILLING A BAR OF SOAP. It was SOFT and VERY WEAK.

After completeing them I stepped back and all I could feel was TOTAL DEPRESSION (for buying $350 worth of NOW WORTHLESS tools and castings that were very poor in quality).

I guess my previous post should have read like this one but I was hoping that people could see the point of it was WHAT'S THE POINT OF BUILDING THESE AT ALL they suck and untill these castings come from a company that uses mil-spec molds they always will
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 1:14:56 PM EDT
Sometimes you are going to be the "bad guy" when you are trying to be honest.  I am thankful you took the time to post this thread to give me the heads up on 80% cast lowers.

Link Posted: 1/3/2003 2:58:52 PM EDT
Buy CHEAP Olyarms complete cast lowers with a smooth black finish for $60.
View Quote

I have one of those cheap Oly cast lowers.  It is not smooth!  It feels more like pumice.  I like the rough finish on it, but I would not call it smooth at all.

Green0, I felt exactly like you did after I first looked at an AR casting.  A year later, I've got one I'm going to work-on!  If you think of it as a hobby, then it makes more sense.  I agree with you that for most people, a completed lower is the smarter thing to buy.  Also, I'm building a pistol that I'll complete if the AWB goes away.  I can build my own pistol lower, but I would have to get the manufacturer and the dealer to do the paperwork for the lower as a pistol.  I'd also have to register it with the state police, as is required by law in the state I live-in, so I'd rather not raise any flags.  Rather than going through that hassle, the 80% casting makes some sense.

aluminum worked like MILLING A BAR OF SOAP
View Quote

Since I'm going to complete mine using hand files rather than a milling machine, I won't complain [:)].  Besides, soft is better than brittle.

(for buying $350 worth of NOW WORTHLESS tools and castings that were very poor in quality).
View Quote

They're not worthless!  Post them here or on the equipment exchange.  I'm sure someone would be interested in them.  I might even be.z
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 4:16:58 PM EDT
You really should have an idea what you are doing before you attempt to complete an 80%. This isn't a flame, but some of the errors were on your part.

1. If you got a lower with that looked bad, you either ordered a #2 or #3 grade, or you were shipped a lower grade in error. In any case, you should have contacted TS for exchange or refund. They are very good about doing that.

2. If you received one with the enclosed trigger guard, either you ordered it or they shipped the wrong lower to you. The 'Enhanced Version' is an additional $15 and has the enclosed trigger guard, which a number of people specifically requested be manufactured. See #1 for what you should have done.

3. There is plenty of room to remove the solid trigger guard. Take another look at the photos posted. [url]http://www.tanneryshop.com/PRODUCTS.html[/url] About 3/4 down the page, the roll over photos show both versions. The tabs for making the cuts are visible.

4. Preanodized lowers don't make much sense to me, but others may have a use for them. If you want a nicely finished and smooth lower, you have to work on it with files and sandpaper. Doing this on a preanodized lower just strips off the anodization and it will have to be done again. If you don't smooth out the lower, you won't need to re-anodize, but you are left with casting marks and small air bubbles.

5. Aluminum is soft. There is no strength required in a lower. It doesn't require the strength to handle any pressure or force as none is exerted on it. This is what makes it an easy project for home builders.

6. I don't know if the lowers are sandblasted, but by their appearance I would guess that they are. See #4.

I've finished a TS Grade #1 lower, and have a Grade #2 lower that I'll work on in the future. The Grade #2 has casting marks and more numerous air bubbles, but most of it will clean up with filing/sanding. The #1 I finished cleaned up very nicely and with the home anodizing and finishing, it looks pretty good. Not the quality finish as BM, RRA or any of the others, but very acceptable.

The reasons for completing a lower has nothing to do with money. They are NEVER cheaper than purchasing them complete, as you have found out. If you went into this figuring you would save a few bucks, as you've seen, it ain't gonna happen. The reasons people complete these, and why there is such a market (and growing rapidly) is:

A. For Do-it-yourselfers, it a sense of accomplishment, being able to do what few others can (or will).

B. No FFL or Federal Paperwork involved. No serial number required, no registration (state laws may vary).

It took me months of visiting sites and gathering information before I started. If you are interested in this type stuff, a visit to the [url]www.roderuscustom.tzo.com[/url] forums will provide you with more information than you could use.

As for the quality of the TS products, their products and support are top notch. You will find a lot more people who disagree with your experience than who will support it. Too bad you crushed your lowers. At one time William was buying them back from people who had ruined them ($40/ea, I think). He'd use them to make more guns for himself. (I don't know if he is still doing this).

Link Posted: 1/3/2003 4:53:23 PM EDT
Oh, and Green0, your question about pre/post ban.  BATF doesn't have to prove the date of manufacture or the configuration. The law outlaws all AW with a few exception. All ATF has to do is prove that the gun falls under the laws definition of an AW, it is then up to you to prove that the exceptions apply to you.

If someone has the BATF on their tail and are brought to court for having an illegal preban AW, then they would have to prove that the 80% lower was purchased prior to the cutoff date (1994), and that it was completed and configured in a pre-ban configuration prior to the cutoff, then you would probably fall under the exceptions. In other words, make sure you save all your receipts.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 6:08:37 PM EDT
Why do people put Chevy 350 engines into Toyota 4X4 pick-ups?
Why do people build cars that can go fast, when the speed limit is 65mph?
Why do people drive in demolision derby's?
Why do some people like black rifles instead of real guns like deer hunters?
Why do you think that because your projects failed, everyone's will?
Why build one, when you can just buy one?
Why ask why?
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 9:33:49 PM EDT
The real guns (for deer hunters just aren't any fun)

I handled a OLY cast lower at a show and (THE EXAMPLE I was holding) looked and felt just like a Forged lower [but maybe it was an exception]

My untrained Eye wouldn't be able to pick up the cast mold mark differences if there were any.
Link Posted: 1/3/2003 11:47:17 PM EDT
I was trying to convince people to save their money and instead Buy CHEAP Olyarms complete cast lowers with a smooth black finish for $60.

I went to the TS site and looked at the pictures and thought I was looking at a high quality product.)*






Link Posted: 1/4/2003 2:16:38 AM EDT

I would like to reply to neilfj's posting,and add to it if I may.
1.If you check out the TS site there is no mention of any grade options.Therefore one must assume that they are all grade 1 or grade 3(depending which way you look at the pictures!)
2.In this world of internet ordering we do rely on the photos a tremendous ammount and if we look at the photos of the prefinished,admittedly cast ally,lowers they do look very nice indeed!Is there any reason why GreenO should expect anything different with his CMM ones?
3.'No force exerted on a Lower'.I would disagree with you there.There is a shock force exerted on both pivot and takedown,and only transfered to the buffer tube tower if the fit is 110%.This force is clearly demonstrated to owners of poor quality cast lowers.(See the thread on the Hesse lower elsewhere on this site.)
Having said that I must agree with with every other comment and say that there are enough links provided by the TS site,this site and various others to visit to get a real good feel for the work involved,and invariably TS castings are used because of their quality and service.If you weren't happy with what you got when it hit your doormat,that would have been the time to complain,not after you had completed the work!Then,and only then,post to the board if no satisfactory agreement is reached.
The Tannery Shop has a deservedly excellent reputation and this is adequately demonstrated by the response given by them above.

Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:09:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/4/2003 9:10:56 AM EDT by Green0]
I aggree (I should have sent them back)
I probably would never have remembered the project if it weren't for my current 10/22 project problem.

I bought 2 10/22 castings at the same time and completed them as target pistols (training for my striker)

and have sent the barrels to PISCO gunsmithing to get them modified to pistol length and they have sat there for 3 months.

I got a call on December 10 from the Pisco people saying (The dumbasses here have been awaiting a receipt as proof that you bought the reciever as a reciever and not as a 10/22 rifle).  

I called up the TS and William Snelling told me that receipts are normally only shipped with credit card orders and he said he could Make me a receipt. I gave him my address and now I am waiting for a receipt (3 weeks have passed)

I guess it's my fault for wanting a complete 10/22 but this waiting is really getting me anxious to go shoot it.

The minute I get a receipt I will run to the nearest hotel and fax it to PISCO AND BEGIN RAGGING THEM TO GET ME A FINISHED PROJECT.
I'm Really mad at PISCO for waiting 3 months to tell me they were waiting for a receipt.

My brother and I were going to use the guns to do some small game hunting or plinking over the holidays.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 8:30:34 PM EDT
greeno......If u have a problem with a vendor please talk to them about it.You are not allowed to bash vendors on this site. thx
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