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Posted: 7/18/2003 1:51:42 AM EDT
[#1]
Looks pretty SwEet.Difficulty in installation?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 2:14:41 AM EDT
[#2]
expected cost to us civilans?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 4:46:57 AM EDT
[#3]
Will they remove their web address and phone # on the civilian models?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 5:41:41 AM EDT
[#4]
The price is only $249.00
The weapon shown was for military testing, so we mark these weapons with large fonts. The commerical markings are much smaller. Our system comes with a new barrel nut and free floating hand guard. Our "Predator" hand guard centers around the barrel nut then is indexed into the correct location by the flat top. Best regards, Frank POF-USA |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 6:11:17 AM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Will they remove their web address and phone # on the civilian models? Yeah, looks like it should be in a NASCAR event....lol All kidding aside. Tell me POF, is this all aluminum? If so, is it a hog-out? 6061-T6? Weight without covers? Do you have longer covers or does one need to combine short lengths to get the coverage they want? Also, will there be more than one length offered? What is the oal of the unit shown? Thanks --RR |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 6:31:58 AM EDT
[#6]
Your correct. We used aircraft grade 6061-T6 alum. The P-4 rail shown is 3/4 lb.
The "Predator" rail system will work with all existing hand guard covers. The one's used in the picture were from Cav Arms. Another benifit using our system is that our patent pending design allows for accessories to be smaller in size and lighter in weight. Best regards, Frank POF-USA |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 6:35:28 AM EDT
[#7]
We also have the P-20 for full lenght or sniper versions. We will soon have a smaller model available.
We hope to have our website up this weekend with some more pictures of the system. Frank POF-USA |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 6:38:40 AM EDT
[#8]
Will these need to be installed by a gunsmith or can the average Joe install them? Thanks |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 6:40:37 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: This new product is currently being tested by the military, and will be offered to the public for the first time in Phoenix, AZ. at the CrossRoads Gun show this weekend: Designed & Manufactured by: POF-USA, Inc. The “Predator Rail System”, Patent Pending. Link to picture: [url]www.pof-usa.com/ar15gallery.htm[/url] (picture is one of the weapons sent to the military for testing) The most advanced Free Floating, rail system currently available for this weapon system, M-16/AR-15. Available to the public by September 2003. The “Predator rail system”, advanced design is the Strongest, Lightest weight, Rigged mounted, Free Floating, Advanced rail designed system. The advanced rail design allows the rail system and it’s accessories to be lighter in weight then any other product available. This advanced rail design takes the current “Picatinny rail” to the next level of performance. Developed for the military, and currently being tested this month at Quantico, Marine base, Virginia. Earlier rail system and Weapon system currently at Fort Hood (Army), and Camp Pendleton (Marines). The “Predator Rail System”, currently has 2 models. The P-4 (M-4 or carbine model), and P-20 (standard length or sniper model). Accessories: Sling mount (PRS-1), Bi-pod mount (PRS-2), and Fixed front site (PRS-3). Available at: [url]www.POF-USA.com[/url] [email protected] 623-561-9572 wk. 623-321-1680 fax [img]www.pof-usa.com/ar15gallery.htm[/img] |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 7:22:20 AM EDT
[#10]
Does it allow any of the red dot optics to co-witness with the sights?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 8:35:32 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: Does it allow any of the red dot optics to co-witness with the sights? Correct me if I'm wrong, but wouldn't any handguard top rail have to be the same height as the existing receiver rail in order to provide co-witnessing to the iron front site? Of course I'm assuming we are referring to a flat top receiver. Clarification: I'm thinking red dot optics are designed to be the same height as iron sights would be when mounted to the standard flat top rail. Thus if red dot optics are mounted forward on the handguard rail, it needs to be inline with the flat top to achieve co-witnessing. --RR |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 8:55:28 AM EDT
[#12]
Make one for the AR10T Rifle, I will buy it!!
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Posted: 7/18/2003 9:41:48 AM EDT
[#13]
Help sell me. Why is this better than ARMS SIR?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 9:59:20 AM EDT
[#14]
The rail handguard is pretty much like the design on the Youngs manufacture handguard and also the same as the one used on RROC gas op upper. knock off all those tacky white lettering this might be a decent handguard if they can keep the weight to a reasonable number.
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Posted: 7/18/2003 11:15:19 AM EDT
[#15]
From their website:
POF-USA IS THE U.S. DISTRIBUTOR FOR PAKISTAN ORDNANCE FACTORIES (POF). POF IS A LICENSED MANUFACTURER OF HK SINCE THE 1960s. THEY USE THE HK TOOLING TO MANUFACTURE HK STYLE PRODUCTS. Where are they made? |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 11:28:31 AM EDT
[#16]
But can you mount an M203?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 12:30:40 PM EDT
[#17]
Definitely won't co-witness with the EoTechs. Is it the same height as the SIR? Will the same Aimpoint/ACOG mounts work?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 1:14:28 PM EDT
[#18]
Pakistan Ordinance Factory?
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Posted: 7/18/2003 3:53:25 PM EDT
[#19]
I had the same [?]; Pakistan Ordnance Factories[?]
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Posted: 7/18/2003 6:13:29 PM EDT
[#20]
It looks higher than to SIR system. The notches don't go back far enough to allow NV monoculer to to be mounted. I don't see how it is attached to the weapon either by the top dovetail or the barrel nut. It looks much heavier than the RAS 2 and #50 SIR, and requires the front sight and delta ring to be removed, and the RAS 2 and #50 SIR's are easy drop on's. The rails are not mil-spec 1913, not even close. All alum and will get very hot to try and hold, even with panels that the military want not to have to content with anymore.
NOT MADE IN THE USA. Jack |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 7:59:28 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted: Pakistan Ordinance Factory? "All your Recycled tin can are Belong to Us." |
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Posted: 7/18/2003 11:33:56 PM EDT
[#22]
SMGLEE,
You are correct. POF-USA has help A.D.D., Inc. with engineering, to improve the RROC system that is being tested by the military. POF-USA will manufacture and market this system . We have reduced the weight and improved the picitinnay rail design. We have all the same external mounting features as the standard picitinnay rail. Our improved design also accepts internal mounting features, with also helps to reduce the size and weight of mounting accessories. Our "Predator" rail system comes with a new barrel nut. The handguard is centered around the barrel and clocked into position using the picitinnay rail on the flat top upper. This is an Extremely Ridged system. The Free Floating hand guard almost seems as if it is part of the upper receiver. The "Predator" rail system is that ridged. The "Predator Rail System"(patent pending), is the first of the RROC system that is being offered to the public. These parts were designed and manufactured in the USA for the U.S. market. POF-USA is the exclusive importer and distributor for POF. We will continue to reprsent there Quaility product's for the HK weapon system. POF-USA is only expanding our market. hope we were able to answer some questions regarding our system. Best regards, Frank POF-USA |
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Posted: 7/19/2003 12:20:11 AM EDT
[#23]
3rdtk (Jack),
Hope the following post helps to inform you with the information about the "Predator" rail system (patent pending). Our "Predator" rail system was designed/engineered and manufactured in the USA for the U.S. market. This is the RROC system A.D.D. Inc. designed for military applications. POF-USA is working (engineering/manufacturing), with A.D.D. Inc., to improve the system. The hand guard system is the first part of the improved RROC system that will be available to the civilian market. POF-USA is manufacturing and marketing the "Predator" rail system (patent pending). The "Predator" hand guard comes with a new barrel nut which centers the hand guard around the barrel, and is indexed, by the picitinnay rail on the flat top upper. The "Predator" rail external features are to the "Exact", 1913 mil-spec. What you see in the picture is one of our improved feature of our "Predator" rail system. Our rail design gives us the ability to reduce weight and size of mounts on the rail. Two simple set screws with locking set screws hold this system on the upper receiver. The "Predator" rail system mounts so ridged to the upper, it almost feels as if it is part of the receiver. Our hand guard is Free Floation. Our product is 6063-T5 aircraft grade aluminum. The picture shows allot of slots, with dips and valleys throughout the entire rail surface design. This helps to increase the surface area of the hand guards, and aluminum helps reduce heat fast. Example a flute barrel has more surface area to disipate heat compared the a round barrel. Our price is only $xxx.xx each. Hope we were able provide you information about our "Predator" rail system (patent pending). Best regards, Frank POF-USA |
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Posted: 7/19/2003 12:47:21 AM EDT
[#24]
This is scary. 2nd time in 48hrs Ive agreed with 3rdtk.
WHO in the military is testing this, and under what request proposal was it submitted? Shipping one to someone to play with doesnt count as testing. I'll pass. |
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Posted: 7/19/2003 4:47:59 PM EDT
[#25]
I met Frank at the Crossroads show today, and stayed to talk with him a while.
I inspected a few different versions of his product, and I have a great feeling about it- The weight was almost nothing, yet it had almost zero flex. He was very helpful and was very thorough in his explanations of why things were manufactured the way they were. I've got to say that Frank is one of the good guys, and he's doing his best to bring a competitive product to a fierce market. His enthusiasm for this product is quite apparent. The rail system is [b]MADE IN THE USA[/b], in case there are any doubters. It's made here locally, and the machining and finish are both beautiful. The rails were definitely the right size and shape to mount anything I could find, including Knight's grip and panels, SureFire M900A, EO Tech, etc. Everything locked on just as solid as on my SIRs or my RIS/RAS systems, and better than my FIRSH. The only downfall of his system will be for people with permanently attached muzzle devices. Since the front sight needs to be removed to swap to the required barrel nut/slip ring, The muzzle device would need to be removed and then re-permanently attached. Other than that, the design is great and mounts very solidly to the upper receiver. -Cory. |
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Posted: 7/19/2003 6:48:37 PM EDT
[#26]
I have been communicating with Frank about these Predator Rail Systems for a little while now. Today I got one of the Long Versions for Evaluation purposes. So far I Like what I see.
If it was not made in the USA I would not have bought it. I will be mounting it up tonight and get some pictures of it. I am thinking that since I did get the longer version, I am going to get a set of front and rear sights from a HK SL8 to go on this......The rails are nice, no sharp edges easy to grip. The Ergo rail covers fit on it quite nicely. This is being tested in conjuction with the Gas Piston system, And no, it is not just SGT. Joe Blow who is doing this on his own. For those that dont know Frank. He is a good guy and is happy to take the time to answer any and all questions about this. Talk to him before you bash him....... |
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Posted: 7/19/2003 8:41:28 PM EDT
[#27]
OK. Got it installed. I took a look at the picture frank has up. The picture gives it a "Painted appearance", this is not so. Mine and all the ones he had where anodized, not painted. I have the P-20 on a 16" Light Weight Barrel, it gives it a Dissapator apperance...I like it... will have picks ina few minutes....
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Posted: 7/19/2003 9:55:05 PM EDT
[#28]
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=14981[/img]
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=14982[/img] [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=14983[/img] Did I mention there are now 3 different Lengths of rail covers..... [img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=14985[/img] |
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Posted: 7/20/2003 12:51:49 AM EDT
[#29]
Funky and space gun-y..
I like it! Now, if I weren't so poor... |
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Posted: 7/20/2003 6:34:04 AM EDT
[#30]
Can you replace the front tower, or does it need to stay off? Jim
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Posted: 7/20/2003 10:41:01 AM EDT
[#31]
How would the carbine model work with a mid-length gas system? Also, what types of BUIS are compatible with it?
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Posted: 7/20/2003 7:31:29 PM EDT
[#32]
ILOVE2SHOOT,
Is that an ASA side-cocking upper on your rifle? If so, can you provide any feedback on it? Thanks. Sluggo |
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Posted: 7/20/2003 10:09:59 PM EDT
[#33]
I have a clamp on gas block (picatinny block) and there was room for it inside the rail system. So there should be no problems with a mid length. If you use a shaved or picatinny gas block, you should be fine with a mid length.
It is a side charging from ASA. I have two. I like them both very much, but lets talk about in a different thread, dont want to hi-jack this one....shoot me an email if you want. I bought another one of the P-20 systems today. I brought that rifle I have in the picture to the gun show and people went nuts over it. That rifle got more antention then the two rifles I was selling. I actually went and complained to Frank at POF that this setup was to BIG of a distraction.... :) I was not selling that setup, just showing it off. I had more offers on it then I imagined. I was even telling people that I would sell it for like $1600, had one guy seriously considering it...I finally told him that is was my personal gun and I wanted to keep it. Everyone who picked it up was very surprised at the weight. It really looks heavier then it actually is. |
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Posted: 7/21/2003 12:40:17 AM EDT
[#34]
Hmmmmm, all sounds good so far. Maybe this IS the cheap and easy answer to my SPR project.
Keep the info coming, and let's see some real grueling tests! [:D] |
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Posted: 7/21/2003 10:53:24 AM EDT
[#35]
[img]http://www.pof-usa.com/ar15gallery.htm[/img]
That is an RROC upper. (I see the finned aluminum heat sink and M14 gas piston deal under it.) Why the glossy finish? Can you sell the Heat sink for aftermarket bbls (like Bushmaster). Or better yet sell the entire RROC upper with 16 carrier buffer and 1/2in28tpi threads for attachment of a suppressor mount. |
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Posted: 7/21/2003 11:33:25 AM EDT
[#36]
Ok, what about sights? I can't tell by the photos - is there enough room left on the flattop receiver rail to mount a back-up rear sight?
I'd love to see a photo with front and rear sights and an Aimpoint or Eotech mounted on it. |
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Posted: 7/21/2003 3:30:57 PM EDT
[#37]
Frank had a front sight that he created for the front. does not look like it will co-witness, not positive though. I am planning on getting a set of sights for a HK SL8 and using them on the rail system.
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Posted: 7/21/2003 6:43:45 PM EDT
[#38]
THe RROC front sight will not cowhitness with an EO but maybe it would with a low aimpoint comp.
Niether will the std post as it is the same height. |
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Posted: 7/21/2003 10:43:11 PM EDT
[#39]
GreenO,
Your correct. This is the RROC system. We can and do manufacture a fixed front site. Correct me if I'm incorrect, but the sighting systems all seem to be at different height levels. If this is correct, they manufactures should all be held to a standard like the 1913 picitinnay rail is held to a mil-spec dimensions. This would make the co-witness on all set-ups the same. Our system is flexible, because use machine our "Predator" rail system. We can extend the end of the rail on the flat top if needed to have the rear flip up site and the front site on the rail if needed. We can also change the height of the front fixed height if needed. The best way to cure this is would be standardizing the height of all optics above the picitinanny rail. Our "Predator" rail system is only 3/8" thick over the flat top upper. Our hand guard system only has (2) 10-32 set screws to mount the hand guard to the upper receiver. We also have (2) 10-32 hollow set screws used as a mechanical jam nut so not loctite is needed. Our rail system is extremely ridged. Hope I answered your questions. Send me a e-mail at:[email protected] so I can e-mail some pictures of our system. Best regards, Frank POF-USA |
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Posted: 7/21/2003 11:14:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Anyone know what back-up rear sights will work with this system?
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Posted: 7/22/2003 7:19:41 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:...If this is correct, they manufactures should all be held to a standard like the 1913 picitinnay rail is held to a mil-spec dimensions... It sounds like your system uses sights that are a different height than the fixed sight rifles. How about using the fixed A2 sight height as the standard. If your system uses sights that are a different height then you are not helping to establish a "standard." ...Our system is flexible, because use machine our "Predator" rail system. We can extend the end of the rail on the flat top if needed to have the rear flip up site and the front site on the rail if needed. We can also change the height of the front fixed height if needed. With so many back up sights already on the market, why not make your system compatible with them? It looks like you just need to shorten the rail that attaches to the top of the upper receiver so there would be enough room to mount a flip-up rear sight to the receiver. If the sights are kept at the same height as the stock sights then optic mounts will probably be made to cowitness with the sights. Designing your system to use sights that are non-standard almost guarantees that optic mounts are going to be different as well. |
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Posted: 7/22/2003 11:42:56 AM EDT
[#42]
I think most manufacturers use the A2 front sight as a standard, this ensures maximum compatibility. Systems that don't, like the older ZM kit whose front sight is too low, render all AR15 rear sights incompatible (read: useless, ask me how I know), never mind co-witnessing with Reflex/Aimpoint/holo sights. ZM subsequently changed this, it's now of the same height as a regular AR15 sight tower.
Hopefully it's not too late to change the front sight design. Products from KAC and ARMS are simply drop-in kits that allow the users to make use of their existing equipment, not sure if this is designed into their products, but why change something that works very well and needs no changing? |
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Posted: 7/22/2003 12:24:59 PM EDT
[#43]
I'm going to save this info and check this out later.
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Posted: 7/22/2003 12:42:50 PM EDT
[#44]
[img]http://photos.ar15.com/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?iImageUnq=14981[/img]
So this is a device for turning an AR15 into a Hi-Point carbine...? [;D] Quoted: Did I mention there are now 3 different Lengths of rail covers..... I like it! |
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Posted: 7/22/2003 3:05:10 PM EDT
[#45]
I have GG&G, ASA, and ARMS #40 flip up rear sights at home. Will check them tonight to see if the have enough room. With the increased hieght of the rail system, even with A2 hieght iron sights, I dont know about Co-witnessing, will look into it. DAM, forgot to call HK again today about SL8 sights......If the sights to co-witness, I expect it will be in the bottom portion of the lense area.
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Posted: 7/22/2003 7:24:22 PM EDT
[#46]
DBerryhill,
Your correct it is frustrating chasing all the different height of sights. I wish the military would have standardized the sight height off the picitinnay rail as a standard. There are many different sight heights and many mfg. Which sight height do you standardize too? Best regards, Frank POF-USA |
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Posted: 7/22/2003 7:49:47 PM EDT
[#47]
The military do have established ht's for the irons and the red dot optic's, etc. If you were a manufacture for the military you would know that. If you read the gov't solicitations they give specific dimentions off the flat top receiver amoungst many other specific's. If you read and look at the mil standard 1913 spec's you would see that your improvment to the dovetail rail design would not be accepted for trials other than lets go to the range and shoot a little.
Jack |
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Posted: 7/22/2003 7:55:43 PM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: The military do have established ht's for the irons and the red dot optic's, etc. If you were a manufacture for the military you would know that. If you read the gov't solicitations they give specific dimentions off the flat top receiver amoungst many other specific's. If you read and look at the mil standard 1913 spec's you would see that your improvment to the dovetail rail design would not be accepted for trials other than lets go to the range and shoot a little. Jack BINGO |
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Posted: 7/22/2003 9:28:33 PM EDT
[#49]
(Dick Swan), I mean Jack,
Thanks for the information. |
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Posted: 7/22/2003 9:34:43 PM EDT
[#50]
Quoted: (Dick Swan), I mean Jack, Thanks for the information. [rolleyes] |
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