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Posted: 10/9/2006 5:30:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/14/2016 10:55:41 PM EDT by Molon]
Marksman's Challenge


One of the many interesting topics posted on The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site is the Marksman’s Challenge. The concept is to fire 20 shots from an AR-15 on an M16A2 25 meter zeroing target (which simulates a 300 meter target) within a time limit of two minutes and then post your score. Shooting can also be done from 25 yards using a similar scaled down target.





Shooting may be done from any position including shooting from a bench. However, no part of the rifle may rest on anything other than your hands; no sandbags, bi-pods, mechanical rests or using the magazine as a mono-pod. Slings and shooting coats are allowed.

Also, only non-magnified sights may be used; i.e. iron sights, “red-dot” or “reflex” type sights. Any shot breaking the black outline is a hit. Any shot breaking the dashed circle counts as an X. A perfect score would be 20/20-20X.

I decided to give the Marksman's Challenge a try using a free-floated 20” Colt HBAR with a NATO chamber and chrome lining. Shooting was done with elbows resting on a bench at 25 yards using a sling and shooting coat. I used an Aimpoint ML3 with a 2 MOA dot for sighting. Ammunition used was hand-loaded 52 grain Sierra MatchKings. Pics of my best targets from today's shooting session are shown below. (I actually imposed a 1 minute time limit on myself for the 20-shot strings in this run.)











I’ve included links to pdf files of 25 meter and 25 yard targets that you can download and print yourself so you can give the Marksman's Challenge a try and post your results. Remember to include the barrel, sight, ammunition and position information in your post.


25 YARD targets.



25 METER targets.



Here's a pic of the rifle I used for today's Marksman's Challenge.






....



50 Yard Target




For those of you using the Improved Battlesight Zero, I've scaled the E2 target for 50 yards. Use the link below to download the .pdf file of the target and print it for yourself. Give the Marksman's Challenge a try from 50 yards using this target and post your results!

50 yard targets










Here is a refresher of the rules for the The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site Marksman’s Challenge. The concept is to fire 20 shots on an M16A2 25 meter zeroing target (which simulates a 300 meter target) within a time limit of two minutes and then post your score. Shooting can also be done from 25 yards using a similar scaled down target and now from 50 yards with the newly scaled target.

Shooting may be done from any position including shooting from a bench. However, no part of the rifle may rest on anything other than your hands; no sandbags, bi-pods, mechanical rests or using the magazine as a mono-pod. Slings and shooting coats are allowed.

Also, only non-magnified sights may be used; i.e. iron sights, “red-dot” or “reflex” type sights. Any shot breaking the black outline is a hit. Any shot breaking the dashed circle counts as an X. A perfect score would be 20/20-20X. Remember to include the barrel, sight, ammunition and position information when you post your results.



....
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 5:47:30 PM EDT
she's a tack driver...man good shooting


always wanted to do that test....have had the targets printed off for months now...one day.... lol
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 5:49:07 PM EDT
Nice gear and excellent results!

I'm curious who made your coat and what you think of it? I've recently shot a high-power match and discovered that I missing a couple of essential pieces of gear.

Link Posted: 10/9/2006 5:50:50 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 6:25:07 PM EDT
Nice shooting! Not to take away from your skills but those scores are one reason I have started to reload. Hard to imagine shooting that well with standard ammo and I am too cheap to buy match ammo.

Seydou
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 6:42:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Erik_O:
I'm curious who made your coat and what you think of it?

It's a Creedmoor, the gold standard. It's hard to imagine anything better for the price.
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 6:44:11 PM EDT
I'm going to have to give these a shot this weekend.
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 7:50:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2010 2:12:58 PM EDT by Lancelot]
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Link Posted: 10/9/2006 7:53:05 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 7:59:29 PM EDT
i'll try this tomorrow morning, and post back
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 8:02:53 PM EDT
hell I cant see that target at 25 yards.....
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 9:00:03 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2010 2:11:51 PM EDT by Lancelot]
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Link Posted: 10/9/2006 9:30:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2010 2:12:02 PM EDT by Lancelot]
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Link Posted: 10/9/2006 9:33:11 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2010 2:12:14 PM EDT by Lancelot]
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Link Posted: 10/9/2006 9:38:10 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2010 2:12:24 PM EDT by Lancelot]
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Link Posted: 10/9/2006 9:41:32 PM EDT


Nice shooting!

Thanks for the target printouts.
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 9:54:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2010 2:12:35 PM EDT by Lancelot]
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Link Posted: 10/9/2006 10:16:43 PM EDT
Damn... I gotta try this.
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 10:25:39 PM EDT
try it ..

Standing unsupported

Kneeling

sitting
prone unsupported / Supported

Not spectacular 25yd/M groups IMOP, esp using a DOT. 2 min is a loooooong time, 50 sec is still one shot every 2.5 seconds.
Link Posted: 10/9/2006 10:48:01 PM EDT
That's Damn good shooting. 60 rounds, accurate and repeatable, damn fine.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 10:27:24 AM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 11:33:21 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Harv24:
Not to bust anyone's bubble... but me personally...I don't really see this as very hard using irons or Dots at 25Yds...


You got to get them to walk before they can run.


Err... the target used at 25 yd simulates a standard human target at 300m. Three hundred meters last time I checked is a "good distance" to practice at. The Marines qual at 500m and that pushes the envelope of their M16s and M855.

Link Posted: 10/10/2006 12:04:04 PM EDT
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 12:23:56 PM EDT
I don't think I have ever really been able to group that well with an AR15. I think it is really impressive shooting - so you get my kudos for what they are worth.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 12:54:28 PM EDT
Molon,
Thanks for sharing! I downloaded those targets and I'm eager to see how I stack up. I shoot service rifle across the course and rattle battle so it should be interesting to see the correlation between this reduced version and real life shooting distance 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards.

Harp
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 1:20:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2006 1:38:22 PM EDT by CK1]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By CK1:
Err... the target used at 25 yd simulates a standard human target at 300m.

Really? I would never have guessed that.

The circle on the target is rougly 6moa. If you can do that for at least 38 out of 40 rounds in 2 minutes you've pretty much met the criteria for 'Expert Rifleman' in the US Army.

It's a good starting goal using 'off the rack' rifles & ammo, many just take their rifle out and blast away being satisfied if they can hit a 16" target at 25-50 yards.


Sorry, I meant my comment for Harv.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 1:40:32 PM EDT
i got some of the alt-c targets, those are real fun too. or the 200, 300, 600 highpower targets reduced for 100.

heres the alt-c www.letargets.com/html/military.html
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 2:12:23 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By CK1:
Err... the target used at 25 yd simulates a standard human target at 300m.

The circle on the target is rougly 6moa. If you can do that for at least 38 out of 40 rounds in 2 minutes you've pretty much met the criteria for 'Expert Rifleman' in the US Army.



Molon,

Based on Forest's response it looks like you are holding to around 3 MOA. Do you think your chrome lined HBAR/ammo combo would still hold 3 MOA at 300m?
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 3:19:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2006 4:01:03 PM EDT by 2stage]

Originally Posted By Harv24:
I'm quite content with the size of my penis... I don't need to measure it and show you.....


You must be really insecure if you have to talk about your penis size in a technical thread regarding the marksman's challenge. No one is interested in your useless and unsupported comments.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 4:44:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2006 8:13:59 PM EDT by Molon]
To all who paid compliments, I say thank you.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 4:47:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2006 4:50:54 PM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By Erik_O:
Nice gear and excellent results!

I'm curious who made your coat and what you think of it? I've recently shot a high-power match and discovered that I missing a couple of essential pieces of gear.



As JER stated in his reply , the coat is from Creedmoor. They definitely have the finest coats I have come across. You send them your measurements when you order the coat and it arrives several weeks later fitting like a glove. One of their leather coats is on my Christmas list.

Molon
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 4:49:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Harp:
Molon,
Thanks for sharing! I downloaded those targets and I'm eager to see how I stack up. I shoot service rifle across the course and rattle battle so it should be interesting to see the correlation between this reduced version and real life shooting distance 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards.

Harp


This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping to see. Be sure to post results. Thanks for replying,

Molon
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 5:02:55 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2006 5:15:00 PM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By CK1:
Err... the target used at 25 yd simulates a standard human target at 300m.

The circle on the target is rougly 6moa. If you can do that for at least 38 out of 40 rounds in 2 minutes you've pretty much met the criteria for 'Expert Rifleman' in the US Army.



Molon,

Based on Forest's response it looks like you are holding to around 3 MOA. Do you think your chrome lined HBAR/ammo combo would still hold 3 MOA at 300m?



My free-floated Colt HABRs are capable of much better accuracy than 3 MOA. From a rest at 100 yards, 10-shot groups using hand-loaded 77 grain Sierra MatchKings hover right around 1 MOA. (See this thread for supporting data.)

I have not had an opportunity to shoot this rifle at 300 yards, but I think maintaining 3 MOA accuracy at that distance would be far more dependent upon me the shooter than this rifle and ammo.

Molon
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 7:33:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/10/2006 7:34:59 PM EDT by JER]

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By Harp:
Molon,
Thanks for sharing! I downloaded those targets and I'm eager to see how I stack up. I shoot service rifle across the course and rattle battle so it should be interesting to see the correlation between this reduced version and real life shooting distance 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards.

Harp


This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping to see. Be sure to post results. Thanks for replying,

Molon

Another yellow glass shooter here, who will try to shoot these targets after the carbine shoot this weekend.

I feel it might be too easy with my NM A2, coat, and NM M1907 sling, so I'm going to shoot it prone with my LMT carbine using nothing but a Vickers sling for support. I'll use a mat if the firing line is concrete, if not, I'll just plop on the ground. No match handloads either, just Guatemalan ball. Sights: MI BUIS and F-base GI front.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 8:13:07 PM EDT

Originally Posted By JER:

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By Harp:
Molon,
Thanks for sharing! I downloaded those targets and I'm eager to see how I stack up. I shoot service rifle across the course and rattle battle so it should be interesting to see the correlation between this reduced version and real life shooting distance 200, 300, 500 and 600 yards.

Harp


This is exactly the kind of response I was hoping to see. Be sure to post results. Thanks for replying,

Molon

Another yellow glass shooter here, who will try to shoot these targets after the carbine shoot this weekend.

I feel it might be too easy with my NM A2, coat, and NM M1907 sling, so I'm going to shoot it prone with my LMT carbine using nothing but a Vickers sling for support. I'll use a mat if the firing line is concrete, if not, I'll just plop on the ground. No match handloads either, just Guatemalan ball. Sights: MI BUIS and F-base GI front.


Great! Be sure to post pics.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 8:20:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Molon:

Originally Posted By jmart:

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By CK1:
Err... the target used at 25 yd simulates a standard human target at 300m.

The circle on the target is rougly 6moa. If you can do that for at least 38 out of 40 rounds in 2 minutes you've pretty much met the criteria for 'Expert Rifleman' in the US Army.



Molon,

Based on Forest's response it looks like you are holding to around 3 MOA. Do you think your chrome lined HBAR/ammo combo would still hold 3 MOA at 300m?



My free-floated Colt HABRs are capable of much better accuracy than 3 MOA. From a rest at 100 yards, 10-shot groups using hand-loaded 77 grain Sierra MatchKings hover right around 1 MOA. (See this thread for supporting data.)

I have not had an opportunity to shoot this rifle at 300 yards, but I think maintaining 3 MOA accuracy at that distance would be far more dependent upon me the shooter than this rifle and ammo.

Molon


I'm doubting your 53 grain Matchkings would hold 3 MOA at that range unless conditions were pretty good. Heavier match stuff, that's a different animal.
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 8:36:36 PM EDT
Thanks for the targets
Link Posted: 10/10/2006 11:23:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By capt3879:
Thanks for the targets


You're welcome!
Link Posted: 10/25/2006 5:53:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2006 4:31:35 PM EDT by Molon]
Run #2


For my second run of The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site Marksman’s Challenge I wanted to use iron sights. I decided to use a 20” chrome lined, NATO chambered, Colt HBAR with A2 sights and a web sling.






As before, shooting was done from 25 yards with elbows resting on a bench. The ammunition used was also the same as before; hand-loaded 52 grain Sierra MatchKings. My results are shown below.






Link Posted: 10/26/2006 12:30:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/1/2008 11:58:59 PM EDT by Molon]
Here's a gratuitous pic of the range where I shot the Marksman's Challenge.





Link Posted: 10/26/2006 12:47:28 PM EDT
Again, impressed.

I am wondering if you could come up with rules requiring an "unsupported" standing position. The reason why I say this is that over the past year or so since I got back into shooting after years of nothing, I have gravitated more and more to shooting at 25-50 yards in a freestanding position using iron sights. I feel like this sort of shooting (for me) tends to enhance my practical accuracy as opposed to shooting with a sling prone or shooting from a bench. Problem is the targets as printed are going to be too darn small for me because I am just not that good!!! I love the challenge, but with three young children I don't have enough range time to improve.

Not trying to blow smoke, but not only are you a pretty good marksman, but I found your 5 v. 10 shot groups post to be one of the most interesting and informative posts I have read on this board. Honestly thanks for your time and effort in posting this stuff.
Link Posted: 10/26/2006 1:13:05 PM EDT
Molan,

Nice shooting and thanks for taking the time to post this up.

Question, have you fired these same strings, in similar conditions with off the shelf or mil surp ammo? I would very curious to see the results of that.

SC
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 1:38:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/27/2006 1:54:37 PM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By IClaudius:
Again, impressed.

I am wondering if you could come up with rules requiring an "unsupported" standing position. The reason why I say this is that over the past year or so since I got back into shooting after years of nothing, I have gravitated more and more to shooting at 25-50 yards in a freestanding position using iron sights. I feel like this sort of shooting (for me) tends to enhance my practical accuracy as opposed to shooting with a sling prone or shooting from a bench. Problem is the targets as printed are going to be too darn small for me because I am just not that good!!! I love the challenge, but with three young children I don't have enough range time to improve.

Not trying to blow smoke, but not only are you a pretty good marksman, but I found your 5 v. 10 shot groups post to be one of the most interesting and informative posts I have read on this board. Honestly thanks for your time and effort in posting this stuff.


IClaudius,

When practicing what I refer to as “defensive shooting” drills, I use full size silhouette targets that have scoring markings for the upper thoracic and cranio-occular areas of the body. A few examples would be the Front Sight training and qualification target, the Taylor Advanced Combat target or the IALEFI-Q target.

Everybody and their brothers have their own opinion of what drills are “the best” to practice for this type of shooting. I’ll simply refer you to Gabriel Suarez’s book entitled “The Tactical Rifle.” In his book Suarez lists many practice drills (including several from the off-hand position) along with distances and time constraints. It’s as good a place as any to start.

Molon


Front Sight target




Taylor target




IALEFI-Q target


Link Posted: 10/27/2006 2:13:48 PM EDT


these Colts, 1:9 or 1:7 ??
Link Posted: 10/27/2006 5:06:37 PM EDT

Originally Posted By cnatra:

these Colts, 1:9 or 1:7 ??


20", chrome lined, NATO chambered, 1:7" twist Colt HBARs.











Link Posted: 10/27/2006 7:25:30 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/1/2006 3:55:23 PM EDT by Molon]

Originally Posted By SamColt:
Molon,

Nice shooting and thanks for taking the time to post this up.

Question, have you fired these same strings, in similar conditions with off the shelf or mil surp ammo? I would very curious to see the results of that.

SC


No, I haven't, but that is a good suggestion. I have a stash of IMI M193 that would make for a good comparison. If I get some spare time next week, I'll give it a try.

Molon
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 10:02:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/28/2006 10:03:20 PM EDT by FREEFALLE7]
Here is my 100m target I shot with my SPR(Ar with Douglas barrel and Lepuold M3 scope)



Im sure the rifle can shoot much better than me
Link Posted: 10/28/2006 10:32:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By k9dpd:
hell I cant see that target at 25 yards.....


+1 But I still want to try it out. I like to try different things at the 'range' (private limestone quarry that I got the exclusives on )
Link Posted: 10/29/2006 2:56:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By custom-concepts:

Originally Posted By k9dpd:
hell I cant see that target at 25 yards.....


+1 But I still want to try it out. I like to try different things at the 'range' (private limestone quarry that I got the exclusives on )


Dont forget to post your results!
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 3:45:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/10/2006 4:35:55 PM EDT by Molon]
Run #3



Originally Posted By SamColt:
Molon,

Nice shooting and thanks for taking the time to post this up.

Question, have you fired these same strings, in similar conditions with off the shelf or mil surp ammo? I would very curious to see the results of that.

SC


For my third run of the The Maryland AR15 Shooters Site Marksman’s Challenge I decided to follow SamColt's suggestion and use some military grade ammunition; IMI M193.







The equipment used for this run was the same as used in my first run:

+ 20" free-floated Colt HBAR with NATO chamber and chrome lining
+ Aimpoint ML3
+ shooting coat and sling, shooting with elbows resting on a bench at 25 yards.

The results of this run are pictured below.







Here is a pic of the target from this run next to a target from my first run for comparison.







Be sure to note the time differences between the two runs as this is not exactly an apples to apples comparison. For my first run of the Marksman's Challenge I imposed a 1 minute time limit on myself instead of the 2 minute time limit just to "make it sporting."
Link Posted: 11/1/2006 4:07:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 10/25/2010 2:15:09 PM EDT by Lancelot]
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