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Link Posted: 12/1/2005 4:57:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Evil_Ed:
www.misplaced.net/~edward/arfcom/DSCN0284.JPG


Very nice!
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 5:50:45 AM EDT
Son Tay Raiders = American bad asses fighting a war the way it should be fought.

Maybe it is nostalgia for an Army I was too young for, maybe it was too many movies, maybe it's due to the fact that my MOS should require me to wear a pink skirt rather than DCU's, maybe it's just plain ignorance due to my ENTIRE 3 1/2 years in the Army...but have things become so damn PC and wussified in the Army that those types of soldiers are close to being extinct? Am I the only person who has had 95% of my officers and "sergeants" (not NCO's)  prove their icompetence at anything other than covering their asses?

Ugh...I'm not disgruntled...I'm just heart broken at what I am seeing these days... oh yea, XM177's rock! now the relevance to the issue is established
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 8:07:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Colt-653:
The XM177E2's without fwd assist are USAF GAU-5's



So who knows what the GAU's where affectionately called by those that built them?

Link Posted: 12/1/2005 8:56:53 AM EDT
?
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 10:27:02 AM EDT

Originally Posted By want2race:

Originally Posted By Colt-653:
The XM177E2's without fwd assist are USAF GAU-5's



So who knows what the GAU's where affectionately called by those that built them?




I'm curious now...
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 1:14:45 PM EDT
I love seeing this one back.

Just wish Son-Tay would have had a different ending..........

Link Posted: 12/1/2005 2:43:30 PM EDT

Originally Posted By redfisher:
I love seeing this one back.

Just wish Son-Tay would have had a different ending..........

img.photobucket.com/albums/v400/redfisher19/untitled.jpg



I hear you brother, but good men fought the good fight, and sometimes thats the best we've got.



I still pray for all our POW/ MIAs, they've never stopped needing us.
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 6:54:09 PM EDT
Benjamin Schemmer's book The Raid.  Get the revised edition with the declassified information.
Link Posted: 12/1/2005 7:12:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/1/2005 7:16:50 PM EDT by FREEFALLE7]
Maj Meadows son was my Company CDR when I was in LRS.

FREE


Originally Posted By uxb:
Dick Meadows:

www.usmilitaryknives.com/Son_Tay6a.JPG

And Elliott "Bud" Sydnor was the commander of the ground forces upon insertion.  He was a graduate of the ROTC program at Western Kentucky University and was recently inducted in to the ROTC Hall of Fame.  WKU has turned out a disproportionate number of graduates who end up in SOCOM or other high-speed low-drag units.

The XMs were sporting SinglePoint Nite sights.  Some had custom made carry-handle sight mounts, others were just taped down with electrical tape or duct tape.

uxb

Link Posted: 12/4/2005 8:49:53 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:

Originally Posted By Schmeghead:
Those guys were pretty hardcore.  

Their NVG consists of only red tinted goggles.



I'm pretty sure those were to maintain organic night vision while prepping for the raid, it's standard practice to acclimate in red light before night ops. I would think that a red lens over your eyes at night would make it more difficult to see.



After stumbling across this thread I got inspired to re-read Schemmer's book.
From page 65 of the revised and updated edition -

"The raid would be launched at night for maximum surprise and to lessen the chance of the helicopters being detected as they flew into North Vietnam. Parachute flares would be dropped over the camp seconds before the first helicopters set down to blind the guards(the raiders would wear protective goggles) and let the helicopters land safely".


Dick Meadows was working for Delta Force when the Iran hostage rescue took place. Read the book "The Guts to Try" by Col. James H. Kyle, USAF(ret.) - excellent!
Link Posted: 12/4/2005 6:01:36 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 8:25:20 AM EDT
My XM177E2 repro in progress:



And just found an original Singlepoint with rings, should be here this week!

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 1:43:25 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 2:41:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uxb:
My XM177E2 repro in progress:

www.fototime.com/B22151EABC1BC3D/standard.jpg

And just found an original Singlepoint with rings, should be here this week!

www.fototime.com/5283E7574096AE5/standard.jpg




thats about where mine is

Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:16:29 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
gonna mill the A2 to the earlier config?



Is there any info on this site about how to do this well? I know that some people have done it, but I didn't find any detailed step by step threads about it. I was looking into ASA, but that project doesn't seem to be getting anywhere.  Thanks for any info.
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 3:50:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
gonna mill the A2 to the earlier config?



Explain please!!!
Link Posted: 12/15/2005 4:33:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 2:46:16 PM EDT
uxb(or others) where can I get an A1 upper with forward assist like yours for a Colt SP1 large hole lower?

I want to replicate an XM177E1.
Did the E1 have a 10" or 10 1/4" barrel?
Model 1 Sales has a 10 1/4" barrel,  but I thought the E1 had a 10" barrel.
Link Posted: 12/22/2005 3:08:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tweak:
details here



Impressive pages, Tweak.

I didnt realize you had organized all that good stuff

Thanks!
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:23:36 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 7:54:29 PM EDT
When the " want ads" went out it was for single men only, E5's and above. The single part was due to the fact they were expecting heavy losses. The raid was flawless excepting for a brief time they thought they had lost one man but it turned out he was on the wrong bird home, so all ended well.
 As to the chopper jock crash landing his slick in the compound. It was NOT part of the plan. during the plan phase they kept stating due to I belive it was 1 tree they couldn't get a bird in, well said pilot just "matter of factly", stated I can set it down in the compound if you can find me another ride home.....talk about guts.
 And to the current grunt who griped about todays armed forces, the armed forces are a reflection of our society....ALWAYS have been. There is very little sense of duty to ones country or to ones brothers in arms. we live in a "me society", as in whats in it, whats good for me.
I was explaining to my daughter the other day about commitment and purpose how in my day 6 guys would get shot to hell to retrieve a buddies body, couldn't leave him behind and all that.....well todays it's more like F him he's dead, lets go! My daughter had and has  a hard time understanding this principle but I try.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:14:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Danichster:
When the " want ads" went out it was for single men only, E5's and above. The single part was due to the fact they were expecting heavy losses. The raid was flawless excepting for a brief time they thought they had lost one man but it turned out he was on the wrong bird home, so all ended well.
 As to the chopper jock crash landing his slick in the compound. It was NOT part of the plan. during the plan phase they kept stating due to I belive it was 1 tree they couldn't get a bird in, well said pilot just "matter of factly", stated I can set it down in the compound if you can find me another ride home.....talk about guts.
 And to the current grunt who griped about todays armed forces, the armed forces are a reflection of our society....ALWAYS have been. There is very little sense of duty to ones country or to ones brothers in arms. we live in a "me society", as in whats in it, whats good for me.
I was explaining to my daughter the other day about commitment and purpose how in my day 6 guys would get shot to hell to retrieve a buddies body, couldn't leave him behind and all that.....well todays it's more like F him he's dead, lets go! My daughter had and has  a hard time understanding this principle but I try.




Thankyou, its a lost concept to many people.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 8:33:33 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/24/2005 12:25:37 PM EDT by uxb]
My Singlepoint, serial #02xxx, arrived today in excellent condition.  Trijicon has referred me to a place that can probably replace the tritium lamp. I need to work on a reproduction mount and then it will go on my XM177E2 clone.

It is very lightweight, perhaps lighter than the OEG.  I'll have to check it on a Postal Meter.  But it is considerably larger (I was quite surprised).  I will get more pics tomorrow with better detail, but here is a teaser:



Hopefully my barrel should arrive tomorrow from ADCO, and then I'll be waiting on the moderator and grenade ring from Total Silence, Inc. to be finished.
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:35:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ODA_564:
Benjamin Schemmer's book The Raid.  Get the revised edition with the declassified information.



I looked on Amazon but did not see any "revised edition".

Could you point me in the right direction?
Link Posted: 12/23/2005 9:37:09 PM EDT
Nioce pics. I will have to check out that book.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 7:01:52 AM EDT
The book is there on Amazon - only 5 used and new from re-sellers

The Raid : The Son Tay Prison Rescue Mission by Benjamin F. Schemmer (Paperback)

Search for Schemmer and look for the one about 5 down.
The cover of the book has a picture of a C-130 refueling a xH-53.
Click on the book for a larger view and you can see it says "revised and updated" in a black bullet above the title.
I think this is the correct book.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:29:22 AM EDT
If I have an 11.5 barrel and put on a 4.5 inch flash hider = 16 inches, is this legal.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:47:03 AM EDT
No.  11.5" barrel plus 4.5" flash suppressor only measures 15.5" because you have 0.5" overlap where your barrel threads into the flash suppressor.

You would have to Form1 it as a short-barreled rifle and pay a $200 NFA tax if you used that combination.

You could send the 4.5 moderator and a 16" barrel to ADCO, tell them to chop it down and permanently attach the flash suppressor to an overall length of 16.1" and you would be perfectly legal without having to go the SBR Route.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 9:51:26 AM EDT

Originally Posted By uxb:
No.  11.5" barrel plus 4.5" flash suppressor only measures 15.5" because you have 0.5" overlap where your barrel threads into the flash suppressor.

You would have to Form1 it as a short-barreled rifle and pay a $200 NFA tax if you used that combination.

You could send the 4.5 moderator and a 16" barrel to ADCO, tell them to chop it down and permanently attach the flash suppressor to an overall length of 16.1" and you would be perfectly legal without having to go the SBR Route.




+1
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 10:30:27 AM EDT
Thanks
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:00:05 PM EDT
Waiting on a grey trigger guard and delta handguard slip ring as well as my XM moderator and grenade ring from Total Silence, Inc.  Should be in next week, and I can drop the rest of the internals in and start work on fabricating the scope mount for the Singlepoint sight when the photos and measurements get here from the JFK Special Warfare Museum.

Then my Son Tay carbine repro will be complete:



Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:07:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uxb:
Waiting on a grey trigger guard and delta handguard slip ring as well as my XM moderator and grenade ring from Total Silence, Inc.  Should be in next week, and I can drop the rest of the internals in and start work on fabricating the scope mount for the Singlepoint sight when the photos and measurements get here from the JFK Special Warfare Museum.

Then my Son Tay carbine repro will be complete:

www.fototime.com/8ED9440538C9B8D/standard.jpg




Now that is groovy.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:16:37 PM EDT
By the way, Ekie, that's your old chromed carrier in that project.  Thanks for the deal!  Metaloy is going to chrome two more carriers for my XM607s, too.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 8:22:10 PM EDT
I guess retro is cool, I have an uncle that has an XM177E2 SBR.
Link Posted: 1/12/2006 9:47:48 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uxb:
By the way, Ekie, that's your old chromed carrier in that project.  Thanks for the deal!  Metaloy is going to chrome two more carriers for my XM607s, too.



I dig chrome.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 8:50:46 PM EDT
gotta tag tis one
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 9:12:15 PM EDT
Tag for the pics.  
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 8:01:08 AM EDT
My CO, Keith Grimes, was the Weather Officer on the raid. Here is a transcript of the raid.

home.earthlink.net/~aircommando1/SONTAYRA1.htm
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 12:24:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/17/2006 12:52:31 PM EDT by uxb]
Okay, here is the latest.

This photo was sent to me and attributed to being a display of the Raider's Equipment on display at the John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center.



I contacted the adminstrator of the Special Warfare Museum for more detailed photos of the mount as well as measurements if possible.

Turns out the mount was not from the Raid and the photo was not from the JFK Special Warfare Center:


The pictures of the items shown in the links you gave us are not from the JFK Museum.  Although we have a Armalite sight, it is not the one shown here.  The sights were not attached with any formal mount as they were not part of the US Army inventory; consequently, no weapon was outfitted in a manner which would allow its attachment.  Instead, they were mounted with black electrical tape.

Thank you for contacting us.  If there is anything further I can do to assist you, please advise.



So according to them, there was no formal mount.  Just electrical tape.

I will at least contribute another photo after that sad news:



Note the pre-assembled charge frame for blowing a hole in the wall of the camp for Bud Sydnor's squad...

uxb
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:25:05 PM EDT
I had read that they may have black taped on the Singlepoints, but I never could find that out...

So...hmmm...I guess I try to figure out if I want to tape my sight on..

I don't think I will..

Hey uxb what about this-



CDNN has these for $9.00
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:43:10 PM EDT
I think I may still consider having a low-profile sight machined if I can draw up some measurements and prints.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 1:49:32 PM EDT
I went ahead and ordered one..

Once the Singlepoint arrives, I'll post pics of the mount and the sight...

I'll still interested in a mount if you get one worked up...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 2:22:19 PM EDT

and the photo was not from the JFK Special Warfare Center


cool, i'm NOT going crazy or forgetful, i KNEW i didn't remember that display from my own trip to the JFK SF museum (visited there and the 82nd Divisional museum with my father when he had business at Bragg).   somewhere i HAVE seen an offical display about the raid showing an XM-177 with the sight attatched with black electrical type tape.  not sure though if that was at JFK, the AF museum or any number of other such locations.  just remember registering the fact adn thinking it was kinda weird.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 3:55:47 PM EDT
does this mean we're going to have to try to find that "Tactical Retro Electrical Tape"?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:15:24 PM EDT
Do they make repro Singlepoints? If so, where can I find them?
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:20:44 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Beefypeanut:
Do they make repro Singlepoints? If so, where can I find them?



Nope..you have to search for them. Post WTB ads over at Subguns or here...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:28:53 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dog1:

Hey uxb what about this-

CDNN has these for $9.00



That's the one I went with.  9 bucks?  I paid 15!  You can see that they're pretty rough, I cleaned mine up with a file and refinished it.  As for low profile, the sight on mine sits about 1/4" higher than the carry-handle at its closest point, so you could do better.



I'm not sure about what the folks at JFK had to say.  I know in "The Raid" it's mentioned specifically that they ordered mounts with the sights.  It said that they had a problem with them breaking too easy, and couldn't get enough anyway, so they went with the black tape for some guys.  The one in the picture had to come from somewhere...
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 4:35:21 PM EDT
Is it a decent mount, after cleaning it up and refinishing it?

I could not find another mount that was not weaver like and not a one-piece.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:08:13 PM EDT
Thought I'd do some research since there's a lot of conflicting info here:

"The Raid" goes into a lot of detail about the sight and mount.  The dimensions given in the book are 6 3/4" long, 1" diameter, 7 1/2 ounces.  The book also mentions that the sights were distributed in MN by Normark (the Rapala folks) and had a 16-page manual which said they were made to military specs.  I can confirm this, as I have the same manual that came with my "spherical" sight.  An 8-foot drop test is also mentioned in both the manual and "The Raid".

My old conical tip Singlepoint on my rifle in the pic measures 7 1/4", but the spherical tip version I have measures 6 3/4".  I don't have links to the Son Tay pictures, but the ones that show the sight mounted on rifles always kind of looked like the spherical version to me.  I wish I knew when Singlepoint switched from the conical tip to the spherical.  Can somebody post the pictures?  I know one is of CPT Dick Meadows, and I think the other was MSG Billy K. Moore.

From "The Raid" on page 120-121..."there were problems with the mount; it tended to wear loose and sometimes break off," and "Simons's three-man armament laboratory told him they had a fix for the mount - a generous use of black electrician's tape."  Looks like there had to be a mount of some kind, not just black tape.  The raid pictures also look like there is a mount, though it's hard to tell.

On page 301 in "The Black Rifle" there is a 1975 pic from an Army reflex-sight trial.  One has the newer, spherical Singlepoint, and it's mounted with standard rings on a cheap Weaver-type mount.  The mount doesn't look at all like the one mounted on the wall in the pic above.

In John Plaster's picture book, there are a couple of pictures some other oddball sight I've never seen, but the captions call them Singlepoints.  I know one of the pics is in the Son Tay section, but it's not of a Son Tay raider.  These sights are also a lot longer than the 6 3/4" mentioned in "The Raid", so I don't think they can be the type used at Son Tay.

Hope this helps, and fell free to argue if you feel like it.  I'm starting to think maybe the spherical tip sights might be more correct, please tell me I'm wrong.
Link Posted: 1/17/2006 5:12:27 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Dog1:
Is it a decent mount, after cleaning it up and refinishing it?

I could not find another mount that was not weaver like and not a one-piece.



It's not a bad mount, pretty solid.  It does have the hallmark of all cheap mounts:  glued-in soft "pads" inside the rings.  Definitely nothing I'd use on a more serious rifle, but for a project like this, I'm happy.  Besides, what the hell, it's 9.99.

I know there's a more expensive "Colt" marked version out there that looks exactly the same.  Not sure if the quality would be any better.
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