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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 7/5/2003 10:57:54 AM EDT
Does anyone own either a Leitner-Wise LW15 .499 or a Tromix .458 Socom? I am going to purchase one of these but need help making up my mind. Any comments on either would be apprieciated. Thanks.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 2:48:36 PM EDT
The .458 SOCOM is on the way out as far as I know. Tromix/Teppo Jutsu is no longer making them, as I was looking to do the same as you. Changed my mind merely due to the fact of bullet cost per round-and I don't have the time to reload. If I were you, I'd be looking into the .50 Beowulf. This round seems to be making it in the Big Stick arena of the AR-15, and Tromix/Teppo Jutso (last I checked) were still producing uppers for this round. I think this one is gonna hang around. Get a good buttpad and muzzle brake, and hang on...the blast is tremendous, from what I gather, and one hell of a shockwave comes off the thing when it goes off...you will definitely attract attention at the range. I have read that in the realm of self defense, if the bullet doesn't kill your adversary, the muzzle blast will likely scare him to death. Good luck. John
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 3:45:53 PM EDT
Originally Posted By tarfu64: [red]The .458 SOCOM is on the way out as far as I know. Tromix/Teppo Jutsu is no longer making them, as I was looking to do the same as you.[/red] Changed my mind merely due to the fact of bullet cost per round-and I don't have the time to reload. If I were you, I'd be looking into the .50 Beowulf. This round seems to be making it in the Big Stick arena of the AR-15, and Tromix/Teppo Jutso (last I checked) were still producing uppers for this round. I think this one is gonna hang around. Get a good buttpad and muzzle brake, and hang on...the blast is tremendous, from what I gather, and one hell of a shockwave comes off the thing when it goes off...you will definitely attract attention at the range. I have read that in the realm of self defense, if the bullet doesn't kill your adversary, the muzzle blast will likely scare him to death. Good luck. John
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I would like to know where you are getting your erroneous and rather suspect info from. Tony Rumore is no longer making the .458 SOCOM PISTOL. He is still making .458 SOCOM uppers and complete rifles. Check his website: [url]http://www.tromix.com/Welcome.htm[/url]. Also Marty Ter Weeme is taking a well deserved break after the .458 SOCOM group buy. Maybe you should check out his website too: [url]http://www.teppojutsu.com/[/url]. No mention there of the .458 SOCOM being discontinued. Gee, even CorBon is now selling .458 SOCOM ammo and Starline is going to be stocking .458 SOCOM brass. Kind of strange for a caliber you claim is on its way out.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 4:20:54 PM EDT
I would go with the LW.499 over either the 50 Beowulf or the 458. LW is a solid emerging company with a big goverment contract for the Rifle and the propietary ammo. They have R&D power, and besides, the Beowulf was just a stolen LW rifle from a couple years ago by some creeps that worked for LW and decided to take the design and make their own. Its ammo is not as refined in terms of power and power to muzzle flash ratio, and the weapon I don't believe is made to the same standards. check out the web sight leitner-wise.com.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 6:47:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2003 6:49:06 PM EDT by eswanson]
I got my LW.499 yesterday. Fit and finish are fantastic. Seems like one fine rifle. When I get it out to the range, I'll be posting a report. During the process of getting the rifle, I had the opportunity to speak with and exchange emails with Paul Leitner-Wise on a number of occasions. The guys from Alexander Arms (Beowulf) did come from Leitner-Wise. They split off from the company, and got their rifle to the market faster. From what I gleaned from my conversations with Leitner-Wise, while Alexander Arms was getting (rushing?) their product to the market, LW was refining the design, getting it to the point where it has been adopted by the Coast Guard, and will likely see service with other branches of the military. The LW design has gone through the military's testing and passed. That's something Beowulf cannot claim. There was testing of the Beowulf gun done by LW, as well as the ammo. The powder charges in the ammo varied by as much as 10%. The size of the gas ports in the rifles varied. In my opinion - and this is only my opinion - the quality control at LW is superior. That said, there are a lot of guys out there with the Beowulf - after all, it reached the market a lot faster, while LW was concentrating on the military applications of the rifle. And I understand the Beowulf is cheaper. But of the Beowulf, the .458, and the LW.499, only one has been adopted by the military, which ought to pretty much ensure that it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 8:23:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2003 8:27:06 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By tarfu64: The .458 SOCOM is on the way out as far as I know.[bs] Tromix/Teppo Jutsu is no longer making them,[bs] as I was looking to do the same as you. Changed my mind merely due to the fact of bullet cost per round-and I don't have the time to reload. If I were you, I'd be looking into the .50 Beowulf. This round seems to be making it in the Big Stick arena of the AR-15, and Tromix/Teppo Jutso[red]Neither outfit has ever produced an upper in 50 Beowulf as far as I know. This is the domain of Alexander Arms.[/red] (last I checked) were still producing uppers for this round. I think this one is gonna hang around.[red]Based on your other errant facts, this one should be chalked up to idiocy as well.[/red] Get a good buttpad and muzzle brake, and hang on...the blast is tremendous, from what I gather[red]You obviously have never handled, nor shot one for you would know EXACTLY what the blast and recoil were like...[/red], and one hell of a shockwave comes off the thing when it goes off...you will definitely attract attention at the range. I have read that in the realm of self defense, if the bullet doesn't kill your adversary, the muzzle blast will likely scare him to death.[red]The same can be said about XM193 and Q3131a from a carbine....[/red] Good luck. John[red]{Who knows DICK about the 458 SOCOM/499LW/50 Beowulf}[/red]
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This is absolute BULLSHIT!!! I don't know who YOU talked with at EITHER Tromix OR TeppoJutsu but both guys are still making uppers. Not to mention JD Jones @ SSK Industries making them. Corbon is shipping ammo right now on all backorders, plus they have gotten 20,000 pieces of formed and properly headstamped brass. Starline Brass will be stocking the 458 SOCOM brass in a few weeks for further purchase -- IF you do reload. So, when you pull your head out of your ass maybe you could give some good information about either of the two platforms -- rather than the errant bullshit you already posted. Thanks, Ed
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 8:42:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: I got my LW.499 yesterday. Fit and finish are fantastic. Seems like one fine rifle. When I get it out to the range, I'll be posting a report. During the process of getting the rifle, I had the opportunity to speak with and exchange emails with Paul Leitner-Wise on a number of occasions. The guys from Alexander Arms (Beowulf) did come from Leitner-Wise. They split off from the company, and got their rifle to the market faster. [red]From what I gleaned from my conversations with Leitner-Wise[/red], while Alexander Arms was getting (rushing?) their product to the market, LW was refining the design, getting it to the point where it has been adopted by the Coast Guard, and will likely see service with other branches of the military. The LW design has gone through the military's testing and passed. That's something Beowulf cannot claim. There was testing of the Beowulf gun done by LW, as well as the ammo. The powder charges in the ammo varied by as much as 10%. The size of the gas ports in the rifles varied. In my opinion - and this is only my opinion - the quality control at LW is superior. That said, there are a lot of guys out there with the Beowulf - after all, it reached the market a lot faster, while LW was concentrating on the military applications of the rifle. And I understand the Beowulf is cheaper. But of the Beowulf, the .458, and the LW.499, only one has been adopted by the military, [red]which ought to pretty much ensure that it's here to stay for the foreseeable future.[/red]
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When talking with L-W, would you expect them to tell you a competing product was superior or even competitive?? The thing I like about Marty ter Weeme, of [url=www.teppojutsu.com]TeppoJutsu[/url], and Tony Rumore, of [url=www.tromix.com]Tromix[/url], is they tell you what they have done, tell you how the other designs are different/better/worse, tell you what matters and what doesn't, and let you decide. Anybody who needs to spend all that time "HYPING" a product is just blowing smoke, well, IMHO. I think it looks like a great rifle and design, not sure it looks so good at $895 for the upper...and using STRICTLY proprietary ammo and brass and mags, with SPECIFIC instructions to not reload the brass after firing it, but hey different strokes for different folks I guess. Further, an 8000 unit order from the COAST GUARD is not an adoption that I would hang my hat on for longevity...now if the Dept of the Army adopts it and makes it a standard round, we may have a winner. Also, you may refer to my sig line for what a pioneer in the big-bore arena has to say about L-W's "refinements". Remember the source of your information...they wouldn't sell themselves short now would they...??[;)]
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 8:58:42 PM EDT
I think I compiled all the most recent threads in this [url=http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=162195&w=searchPop]thread[/url]. I have had/shot/demo'ed: 440 Corbon Magnum Upper 458 SOCOM upper x4 50AE upper 50 Beowulf upper From my shooting the 440 Corbon Mag upper was the most accurate, but it utilized converted mags with custom followers and guides. Not ideal for flawless running, but it works very well in sustained semi-auto firing. I think the best all around design is the 458 SOCOM. You are able to load with projectiles from 300gr up to 600gr. You now have Corbon re-tooled to produce "factory" ammo in 300gr variety and possibly a 500 or 600gr subsonic "factory" load. Brass for the 458 SOCOM is reloadable and available in the very short term from Starline Brass in 250, 500 and 1000 piece quantities. The 458 SOCOM uses any 45-70 or 458 Winchester bullet with very FEW exceptions {there are a couple that won't seat to the correct OAL}. The 458 SOCOM uses UNMODIFIED USGI mags as does the Beowulf. The 458 SOCOM is customizable...can be ordered as you see fit -- sometimes they are less than the semi-mass-produced cookie cutter Beowulf and L-W models. Suppressor designs are already available for the 458 SOCOM, although they are rare from what I have been told. The subsonic loads are very quiet even un-suppressed. Check the threads I linked to above and see what there is to see. Ed
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 10:59:31 PM EDT
[nuts]
Link Posted: 7/5/2003 11:35:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/5/2003 11:36:20 PM EDT by BigD]
Originally Posted By tarfu64: ...as far as I know....This round seems to be making it in the Big Stick arena of the AR-15, and Tromix/Teppo Jutso (last I checked) were still producing uppers for this round...from what I gather...I have read...
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Heh. I love it when people are caught in OUTRIGHT lies. You obviously talked to NOBODY, since Teppo Jutsu is NOT going to be making uppers with a competing caliber. You talk about all this "reading" and "gathering" and "checking". You have done none of this. Instead, you decide to commit LIBEL. I have a feeling that you're just another troll who works for Alexander Arms or has some affiliation with them. Judging by your wet dream of a description of the .50 Beowulf, your true intent has been made clear. Thank you for flying Troll Airlines. You have reached your destination. You may now deplane.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 7:29:56 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 7:41:48 AM EDT by eswanson]
WTF, Shivan, do you work for Tromix or are you just blowing Tony Rumore?[;)]
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 8:30:36 AM EDT
I need to find out when the big clearance sale starts on .458 uppers-sounds like you might as well give em' away!!! [wow]
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 8:38:46 AM EDT
Originally Posted By DVCER: I need to find out when the big clearance sale starts on .458 uppers-sounds like you might as well give em' away!!! [wow]
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Don't hold your breath!
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 8:49:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: WTF, Shivan, do you work for Tromix or are you just blowing Tony Rumore?[;)]
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Uh Oh! SHTF time. [peep]
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 9:02:31 AM EDT
Originally Posted By eswanson: WTF, Shivan, do you work for Tromix or are you just blowing Tony Rumore?[;)]
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Actually, my favored vendor is TeppoJutsu...which would be Marty ter Weeme. He WISHES he could have full service clients.[;D] That being said, L-W was one of those vendors who made promises, promises, promises then disappeared -- took no phone calls made no return emails. Pissed me off pretty bad considering thier facilities are in my backyard almost. Then to come out of the woodwork AFTER everyone else made a HUGE splash in the big-bore market and start claiming ONLY THEY have the corner on innovative ideas...blah, blah, blah.....makes me sick.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 9:07:32 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 4:28:24 PM EDT by SHIVAN458]
Originally Posted By DVCER: I need to find out when the big clearance sale starts on .458 uppers-sounds like you might as well give em' away!!! [wow]
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Clearance sale?? Unlike the the 499LW and 50 Beowulf the 458 SOCOM uppers have all been made to order, most people who bought them did so after making a conscience decision. I see the common availability of the Beowulf and 499LW as whimisical buys. "Hey, I know let's buy a big-bore upper. What's easiest/easier??" Guys who went in on the 458 SOCOM did so IN SPITE of no factory ammo for over a year, no mass produced upper, and lead times for semi-custom work. Not so sure there will be any "clearance sales" any time soon, but with all firearms and firearms gear you may see some on sale. Hell, I've sold two of them, but have a full custom job in the stable that won't be going anywhere.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 9:37:42 AM EDT
I still don't see any .458 uppers in the EE board??? C'mon , I'll give you a fair price. [;)]
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 9:47:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2003 9:48:00 AM EDT by eswanson]
Originally Posted By SHIVAN458: That being said, L-W was one of those vendors who made promises, promises, promises then disappeared -- took no phone calls made no return emails. Pissed me off pretty bad considering thier facilities are in my backyard almost.
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I can't argue with you there - I waited about a year to get my rifle. In fairness, and this is MHO, nothing else, I think they intended to get it out on the market sooner, and ran into problems with the ammo production and mags. Then with the Coast Guard testing and approval process, they put the civilian stuff on the (way) back burner for a while. It's certainly not unheard of in the firearms world for a manufacturer to advertise a product - and even take orders - before the gun is in production. How many guys are still waiting for the MMag .50 uppers? I think Excalibur Arms currently has the Leitner-Wise rifles in stock (or at least they said they did when I called), so maybe civilian production is getting up to speed.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 9:49:51 AM EDT
Hey Guys, why all the flaming? Three systems all with virtues, just take your pick! I've had the opportunity to shoot all of the weapons although I haven't had the opportunity to closely examine the 458 SOCOM. My choice is between that and the LW. The LW started in 1994. The big bore idea was not original even then, 50AE uppers already being out there. The rifle has been refined and eventually launched on the market, it has a lot of dedicated components in it's make up which are there for a reason, it is a well engineered weapon. LW have a number of configurations now including Hogue handguards and grips and an outstanding one piece upper that they developed for the helicopter teams (I'm trying to get a photo) and a dedicated marksman upper as well. The rifle has been tested by the Pentagon and Picatinny and the reports back are outstanding. The discussion should be about pros and cons of the relative systems, I think the owners of the company's all have healthy respect for each other (except LW and AA) and as I mentioned before, the market is big enough for all of them. BTW, I have heard on the grapevine that other rifle manufacturers are chambering for the 499 round. Just my 02c.
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:06:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 10:30:29 AM EDT by cruizer]
I vote for the 440 Corbon Mag. It has a excellent bullet selection, good case capacity, and you can always find the parent cartrdge brass(.50AE) As far as mags go a mag block can always be improvised. [img]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?[/img] [img]http://www.corbon.com/440240_219x.jpg[/img] Looks like a .357 Sig on steroids to me. cruizer
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:08:50 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cruizer: I vote for the 440 Corbon Mag. It has a excellent bullet selection, good case capaity, and you can always find the parent cartrdge brass(.50AE) As far as mags go a mag block can always be improvised. [url]http://photos.ar15.com/WS_Content/ImageGallery/Attachments/DownloadAttach.asp?[/url] cruizer
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Did you buy my 440 Corbon upper? I can't for the life of me, remember who I sold it to......
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:17:16 PM EDT
actually mine started out as a 44 mag that Tony and Marty both worked with trying to get it to function 100% I ended up sending it back to Tony and haveing it converted to 440. Can you see the pic? Right now I am waiting on Tony's muzzle loader upper to arrive! cruizer
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 2:20:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By cruizer: Can you see the pic?
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Can see the pic of the ammo, not of the gun....
Link Posted: 7/6/2003 4:26:02 PM EDT
WTF?!?!?!?! STILL NO obsolete .458 uppers being sold on the EE board??? I'll give ya a fair price, if you throw in a bunch of extras
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:36:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2003 7:39:36 AM EDT by yellobelli]
Since the big brown truck of happiness just left, I was gonna post how elated I was that my 458Socom upper just arrived. However, finding out that it's been discontinued, I'm not so sure about my purchase. After all, this must be a beat-up second hand item. I'll make a great package deal for anyone who wants my blue light special. Let's see, I'll have the upper, 1200+ rounds of brass, Lee dies and enough Cor-Bon ammo to thin a herd of Elk down at the local SafariLand. I'll give it to you for the special "458 SOCOM going away" price of three times what I paid for it. After all, it's gonna be a collector's item. Not as rare as Shivan's cupholder and fuzzy dice though. [;)] In all seriousness: I went with the .458 over the other big bored (.499, .50AE, .50Beowulf) because I liked the idea of a custom made-for-me upper. I further liked that I could use my existing magazines (without modification). Going into it, I knew that brass, dies and production ammo would require wait times for delivery but felt that was a minor inconvience.
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:50:49 AM EDT
Does the 458 used a complete original USGI or is useing a different folower and spacer up front? Cruizer
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 7:58:18 AM EDT
Cruizer: Totally unmodified USGI gear, black or green followers work well. Even the USA 40rd mags work OK with this round. The OAL is about the same as a 5.56/.223, so they fill the mag just right, and because they are a neckdown they negotiate the curve of the mags very well. Ed
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 2:18:36 PM EDT
I still make .458 SOCOM uppers. In fact I have enough barrel blanks to make a pile of them right now, but the orders on hand are all for 50AE's and Tactical Twenty's. Tony Rumore Tromix Corp
Link Posted: 7/7/2003 8:00:22 PM EDT
We have stopped making uppers in .458 SOCOM? Well, shoot, wish someone would have told me. I could have stopped working in the shop this weekend, gone out, had a beer (just one, I be a lite weight), talked to the wife, played with the kiddo and dogs. [b]NOW[/b] you tell me ... Umm, I think Bill Alexander would be a wee bit upset if I chambered rifles in the .50 Beowulf. Ever notice that little (tm) thingy behind the name - chamber a rifle in that caliber by that name, and some paralegal will drop the summons at your door ... not my idea of fun. Besides, I designed the .458 SOCOM with specific reasons for it, so why fall back to the Beowulf? I feel my design has certain aspects that make it better suited (then again, there are certain aspects of the Beowulf design that are better ...) Now, please excuse my further absence from this discussion, I have orders to fill. Let's see, one suppressed version, a custom version for a gentleman who already owns a .458 SOCOM but wanted a second one, 2 uppers in .338 Spectre and our two prototypes for our two new cartridges. Y'all have fun, and next time we are stopping production, please let me know first. Thanks! Marty ter Weeme Teppo Jutsu LLC Designer of the .458 SOCOM cartridge (and a few others)
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 5:24:02 AM EDT
Marty. Always the last to know! LOL. Powerful thing the rumor mill huh?
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 5:32:14 AM EDT
Seriously, what would stop you chambering in 50 Beo or 499 for that matter? Whilst there may be some IP on the concepts or construction of the round itself, the chamber is just a chamber. Beowulf cannot claim any IP rights because the 499 was first shown at the 2000 SHOT Show and the Beowulf is a copy of that weapon albeit chambered for the longer cased round; from an ammo makers perspective (which beowulf are), I would have thought the more platforms out there the better? Just my 02.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 5:34:14 AM EDT
BTW, a quick search at the PTO shows no applications for trademarks by AA and none granted.
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 6:40:07 AM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: Seriously, what would stop you chambering in 50 Beo or 499 for that matter? Whilst there may be some IP on the concepts or construction of the round itself, the chamber is just a chamber. Beowulf cannot claim any IP rights because the 499 was first shown at the 2000 SHOT Show and the Beowulf is a copy of that weapon albeit chambered for the longer cased round; from an ammo makers perspective (which beowulf are), I would have thought the more platforms out there the better? Just my 02.
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Honor & pride come to mind. [;D]
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 12:44:41 PM EDT
LOL But do they pay the bills????
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 2:22:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By HipFiredGun: LOL But do they pay the bills????
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When utilized correctly? Yes. YMMV... [lol]
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 2:37:00 PM EDT
Touche! That one's to you but I'll be back!
Link Posted: 7/8/2003 3:15:15 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/11/2003 4:57:04 AM EDT by WSAR15]
Why 458 Socom versus 499LW or 50 Beowulf? Simple: you can have a 300HP Chevy or you can have a Porsche. Too many Chevy's around for my taste (nothing wrong with Chevys though)! So, why run with the crowds if you can have a little something different or even better in a crowded world. Thus, I'm going for the 458 Socom.
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