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Posted: 3/8/2010 6:54:56 AM EST
I've pretty well convinced myself that I need (need ... want ... same thing) a large bore upper and from my own reading am leaning toward the .458 SOCOM.  Mainly because I already load for .45-70 so I have 300, 350, 400 & 500gr bullets in stock and cast for my Sharps.  Also, the magizines I already have are reported to work with the SOCOM cartridge.

But, before I commit, does anyone that actually has hands on experiance with more than one of the big three have any special knowledge that would convince me to go with one of the other two?

Whereas I think all three cartridges are all fairly stable, are there any indications that I should go with one of them specifically because the others won't be around much longer?

Thanks,
MLG

Link Posted: 3/8/2010 6:59:11 AM EST
Id go with that 458socom your already ahead of the game with the reloading, no reason to reinvent the wheel , next would be .338 lapua (not sure they make an AR in this though).
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 7:28:21 AM EST
I only have experience with the 458 Socom, but if I was going to do everything all over and pick one of the big three AR calibers knowing what I know now, I'd still go with 458 S.  It has a great selection of bullets, feeds well from unmodified magazines, its easy to load for, and performance wise is right there with the other options.

Link Posted: 3/8/2010 8:06:07 AM EST
Sounds like 458 is the way to go for you, since you're already halfway there like you said...
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 8:06:47 AM EST
The 450 B uppers are on sale at bushmaster for $499, just pulled the trigger today.  And Remington is making uppers and ammo now, cant wait to sling some lead.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 9:02:09 AM EST
I'm waiting on this

Titan 500 Extreme
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:00:09 AM EST
I researched this to death last year before deciding....and ultimately settled on the SOCOM.

Since you already reload for your 45/70...it only makes sense to pick the .458


If the rain stops here this evening and Mr. Piggy shows up, I'll show you how effective the SOCOM is.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 10:14:39 AM EST
Quoted:
Id go with that 458socom your already ahead of the game with the reloading, no reason to reinvent the wheel , next would be .338 lapua (not sure they make an AR in this though).


Same here.

To the OP: When I was looking for a big bore (like you I also load 45/70) the .458 dia. bullets/selection was the deal clincher for me.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 11:31:34 AM EST
Headspacing on the shoulder (which the beowulf and bushmaster do not) was one of the deciding factors for me...
.458 Socom is a pretty low pressure round too, the brass has been holding up forever it seems. Just finished loading some for the 10th time now, no case stretching or signs of fatigue. The primer pockets are still tight too.  

As far as bullets go, .458 Socom has the better selection of projectiles. The Bushmaster guys will pop in any second and start gabbing about plinking with 230gr FMJ but I didn't buy a big-bore for "plinking", I like shooting my 300-500gr sized rifle bullets for devastating terminal effect. Then they will tell you that you can use a sizer to swage the .458 projectiles down to .452 and pop em out of their bushmaster, but you can't do that with the solid bullets avaliable for the .458S. You can use a lathe to turn down the driving band diameters, but after all that trouble and money (I doubt people are getting a $499 upper and then buying a $200 sizer or a $3k lathe for the sole purpose of turning down projectiles) its not exactly worth the effort.

The bottom line really though, all three cartridges deliver some serious lead downrange. Weighing the costs and logistics often dictates the choice for many people. Money wasn't an issue when building my ultimate personal defense gun and I didn't make any compromises to make it happen. My hang-up with the beowulf and bushmaster is that they are shooting pistol bullets (not the biggest selection, and not necessarily designed for expansion at rifle velocities) and headspace on the case mouth. I have enough guns that do that already. I wanted a 45-70 or equivalent and was leaning torwards the Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in Stainless with the laminate stock, but then I saw the .458 Socom (semi auto with detachable mags) and my mind was made up.
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 4:06:25 PM EST
Quoted:
Headspacing on the shoulder (which the beowulf and bushmaster do not) was one of the deciding factors for me...
.458 Socom is a pretty low pressure round too, the brass has been holding up forever it seems. Just finished loading some for the 10th time now, no case stretching or signs of fatigue. The primer pockets are still tight too.  

As far as bullets go, .458 Socom has the better selection of projectiles. The Bushmaster guys will pop in any second and start gabbing about plinking with 230gr FMJ but I didn't buy a big-bore for "plinking", I like shooting my 300-500gr sized rifle bullets for devastating terminal effect. Then they will tell you that you can use a sizer to swage the .458 projectiles down to .452 and pop em out of their bushmaster, but you can't do that with the solid bullets avaliable for the .458S. You can use a lathe to turn down the driving band diameters, but after all that trouble and money (I doubt people are getting a $499 upper and then buying a $200 sizer or a $3k lathe for the sole purpose of turning down projectiles) its not exactly worth the effort.

The bottom line really though, all three cartridges deliver some serious lead downrange. Weighing the costs and logistics often dictates the choice for many people. Money wasn't an issue when building my ultimate personal defense gun and I didn't make any compromises to make it happen. My hang-up with the beowulf and bushmaster is that they are shooting pistol bullets (not the biggest selection, and not necessarily designed for expansion at rifle velocities) and headspace on the case mouth. I have enough guns that do that already. I wanted a 45-70 or equivalent and was leaning torwards the Marlin 1895 Guide Gun in Stainless with the laminate stock, but then I saw the .458 Socom (semi auto with detachable mags) and my mind was made up.


Sounds like the same reasons why I got the SOCOM (along with the fact that I already reload for the .45-70).  I have bullets coming out the gills in .458-.459 already, so why not?  

It really is an awesome gun.  Try shooting the 100gr Lehigh bullets at 3000fps sometime.  Talk about a blinding flash of light...
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 6:36:59 PM EST
headspacing on the shoulder (like the 458S) = a good thing
Link Posted: 3/8/2010 7:34:14 PM EST
This is why you choose the SOCOM:




I popped this one about 7:00 p.m. this evening, he never took a step!


I tried to drag him off the pipeline by hand....but ended up having to get my Father-in-Law to come scoop him up in the tractor bucket.








Link Posted: 3/9/2010 3:16:21 AM EST
Thank you Gentlemen,  most guys pretty much re-iterated myown thoughts in the decision process

Bullet selection: pistol bullets vs rifle bullets vs what is already in stock,
Its a rifle for cryin out loud, the case should have either a rim, a belt or a shoulder,
It seems to be gaining in popularity and may be around awhile
Uses standard mags.  they don't hold many but it should not take many either.
A semi-auto .45-70 equivilant just sounds rather awsome for pig hunting.

The only serious down fall in my reasoning is that I can't make brass from any other "common" cartridge  but the same kind of holds true for the others as well.

Thanks for your input,
MLG

Oh, that is one hellava piggie man!!!!!  Where abouts are you poking those?
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 5:20:21 AM EST
You can use 284win. brass for your 450Bushmaster, but finding it is another story.

I have all three (450,458 & 50b)and a 50ae.

If I could only have one, it would be the Socom.
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 9:57:56 AM EST
I'm also considering my options on getting something 'big bore'. At first it was the 458SOCOM, no questions asked, but then Bushmaster comes up with a more affordable upper [$499 on sale] for the 450B, vs. $705 for an RRA 458S upper. Ammo, as I don't have the knowledge or equipment to reload, is going to have to be factory, and for the 458S, thats $50+ per box of 20 vs. $23 for a 450 Bushmaster box of 20, yikes! Thats a huge difference. And something I think Bushmaster and Remington are counting on.

If the 458 SOCOM uppers were $100 less, and ammo closer to what the 450 Bushmaster costs, I'd jump on the 458 SOCOM like a duck on a junebug, but for now, I'm having to wait.

Link Posted: 3/9/2010 11:04:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 11:51:59 AM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
.
The only serious down fall in my reasoning is that I can't make brass from any other "common" cartridge  but the same kind of holds true for the others as well.
..?


While I prefer the .458, IIRC the .450 Bushmaster's cases can be made from cut down .308 or .30-06.


Parent case is the 284 Winchester (45 Professional) and it uses SRPs...

The base of the cartridge abouve the rim is .500, and neither the 30-06 or the .308 could fit that, IMHO...
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 12:24:06 PM EST
Parent case is the 284 Winchester (45 Professional) and it uses SRPs...


284 Win brass isn't exactly easy to find either you know!

In any case, I guess my mind is about made up.

Link Posted: 3/9/2010 12:39:32 PM EST
Quoted:
Parent case is the 284 Winchester (45 Professional) and it uses SRPs...


284 Win brass isn't exactly easy to find either you know!

In any case, I guess my mind is about made up.



I was just correcting the info from the prior poster.  Didn't say it was easy to find the brass...
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 2:41:13 PM EST
I went with the .50 Beowulf, but you make a good case for the .458SOCOM.

If I had it to do over again, I might even go .458 myself.

Not that there is anything wrong with the .50 Beowulf.

It is good to have choices.
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 2:43:53 PM EST
Nobody favors the Titan 500 Xtreme?
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 2:45:41 PM EST
Stock AR mags WILL work with the .50Beowulf and there are a ton of bullets available now that work great in the .50B.  ANyone who tells you otherwise just doesn't have the facts.  With that said, you already have a good supply of .45-70 bullets sitting around, so there is no real reason NOT to go for a .458Socom!  I have a .45-70 1895GS, but for some reason back a few yrs ago, I just HAD to have the .50Beowulf!  I love it, plain and simple.  Now I just have bullets for both and I have a relative who shoots a 500S&W so we share bullets for that too.  It really sounds like .45-70 makes the most sense for you though.  Enjoy!!!  Any Big Bore is the Best!!

Link Posted: 3/9/2010 5:12:49 PM EST
hey flint knapper , do you think you could of found something a little bigger to shoot with that thing lol nice pig . what load are you using? I been using 325 hornady stx bullets and 36 grains of reloader 7 , but I got a pound of little gun I would like to try if I can find some data.
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 6:09:22 PM EST
Quoted:
Stock AR mags WILL work with the .50Beowulf and there are a ton of bullets available now that work great in the .50B.  ANyone who tells you otherwise just doesn't have the facts.  With that said, you already have a good supply of .45-70 bullets sitting around, so there is no real reason NOT to go for a .458Socom!  I have a .45-70 1895GS, but for some reason back a few yrs ago, I just HAD to have the .50Beowulf!  I love it, plain and simple.  Now I just have bullets for both and I have a relative who shoots a 500S&W so we share bullets for that too.  It really sounds like .45-70 makes the most sense for you though.  Enjoy!!!  Any Big Bore is the Best!!



You all are making me lean towards that .458 SOCOM now . . .
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 7:19:39 PM EST
Another vote for the 458 SOCOM .......... love mine!!
Link Posted: 3/9/2010 7:22:20 PM EST
The new RRA midlength 458 is where I'm heading  
Link Posted: 3/10/2010 1:38:04 AM EST


SOCOM


(...but they are all nice. get what meets your requirements ammo wise and availability wise...)
-3D
Link Posted: 3/10/2010 7:37:37 AM EST
What Mag is used on the .458 SOCOM?
Link Posted: 3/10/2010 8:29:23 AM EST
Quoted:
What Mag is used on the .458 SOCOM?



Standard mag for a .223/5.56

Some folks will grind a slight "half moon" in the front of the mag..to keep certain bullet types from contacting it, but I've never had any problems with unmodified mags....and that is what the manufacturer calls for (unmodified mags).

All you need is a  458 SOCOM "upper" if you already have a .223/5.56, it will fit right onto your lower.
Link Posted: 3/10/2010 8:44:25 AM EST
What helped me decide was the holiday sale on the 450, they are currently on sale again and it is even better deal than when i bought. $499 for a 16 or 20" upper.
Link Posted: 3/10/2010 9:10:29 AM EST
Let me know when you find 500gr bullets on sale too...enjoy your new upper!
Link Posted: 3/11/2010 6:05:42 PM EST



Quoted:


The Bushmaster guys will pop in any second and start gabbing about plinking with 230gr FMJ but I didn't buy a big-bore for "plinking", I like shooting my 300-500gr sized rifle bullets for devastating terminal effect.


450 Bushmaster guy here. This past winter I dropped a 194lb boar with a single round at 120yds in a 50mph wind. There was almost nothing recognizable inside the chest cavity forward of the diaphragm. This was a Russian Boar, not a feral pig - there is a substantial difference with the Russians being much harder to drop. The lungs were so much lumpy jello. Massive terminal effect, I'd say. I bought the 450 Bushmaster for hunting after extensive research, and it has proven itself in the field. It's like having a .45-70 in an AR platform.



But the .458 is good too. It doesn't have the "cool factor" of the 450 but it's a good rifle, as is the Beowolf. I might have gotten either one of these except the ammo costs are staggering and I just don't have the time or the room for reloading.



 
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 3:09:28 AM EST
The .458 doesn't have the "cool factor" of the .450???  What the heck is THAT based on???    I am a .50Beo fan, but see cool factor in any of the big three big bores.  Not much difference when you look in the end of that muzzle!
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 3:15:56 AM EST
Quoted:
Thank you Gentlemen,  most guys pretty much re-iterated myown thoughts in the decision process

Bullet selection: pistol bullets vs rifle bullets vs what is already in stock,
Its a rifle for cryin out loud, the case should have either a rim, a belt or a shoulder,
It seems to be gaining in popularity and may be around awhile
Uses standard mags. they don't hold many but it should not take many either.
A semi-auto .45-70 equivilant just sounds rather awsome for pig hunting.

The only serious down fall in my reasoning is that I can't make brass from any other "common" cartridge  but the same kind of holds true for the others as well.

Thanks for your input,
MLG

Oh, that is one hellava piggie man!!!!!  Where abouts are you poking those?



How many will fit in a standard AR 30 round mag?
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 4:45:06 AM EST
I've heard that a 20 rounder will hold like seven or so.

MLG
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 5:48:08 AM EST
I'm guessing the 458 would roughly be the same as the 50B. The 30rnd mag holds 10 rounds of 50B and the 20rnd mag takes 7. The 458 would be the same or hold 11. My 243 WSSM takes 11 in a 30 rnd mag and 7 in a 20 rnd mag.. The 50 Beowulf doesn't need modified mags as some have stated in this thread. I use unmodified Pmags with my 50B without a problem..
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 5:59:15 AM EST
who makes .458 SOCOM uppers?
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 6:07:20 AM EST
RRA makes them, but be prepared to drop seven bills for an upper. And $50 for a box of ammo. The ammo and upper cost is a lot more than the Bushmaser 450 is. $500 for the B450, [on sale] and $25 for a box of ammo.

Hard to decided.
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 6:08:02 AM EST
Quoted:
who makes .458 SOCOM uppers?


You can get them from Rock River Arms
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 6:34:01 AM EST
Quoted:
Quoted:
who makes .458 SOCOM uppers?


You can get them from Rock River Arms


Marty from Teppo Jutsu as well.  I got mine from him in a GB years ago and he has excellent customer service.

BTW, I've had bad luck using magpul followers in my mags with 458 SOCOM ammo.  Sticking to the green USGI followers gave me the best reliability.
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 6:38:15 AM EST



Quoted:


RRA makes them, but be prepared to drop seven bills for an upper. And $50 for a box of ammo. The ammo and upper cost is a lot more than the Bushmaser 450 is. $500 for the B450, [on sale] and $25 for a box of ammo.



Hard to decided.




The cost of the RRA 458s complete upper from RRA is $725.

http://www.rockriverarms.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=category.display&category_id=423



And then 458 ammo is $50/box.



The Bushmaster 450 complete upper just cost me $500. It's on sale right now from Bushy.

And then the 450b ammo is $25/box.

Ordered it from Cabela's and with my cabela's points two boxes of 450b were essentially free.



I don't reload and don't have the time.



The decision was easy to make - Go for the 450b!



Of course there's lots of folks here on arfcom with lots of money so this only applies to those in poor shoes like me.








 
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 7:19:16 AM EST
I thought I had made my mind up to buy the 458 over the 50B. Cheapest I found a 458(RRA) upper was 750. I couldn't get brass to load  either the 458 or the 50B. I was looking at the 50B forum and saw a 50B upper and 200 rounds of factory ammo for 1K. It had YHM 2 piece 4 rail hand guards on it and the factory muzzle brake. I went for it. It would cost me more to buy all of it new plus I would have ammo and the brass. The upper was like new. That's basically what made my decision for me. I think either round is a beast. I like the 450 Bushie also but I'd rather use 458 bullets instead of 451.
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 7:58:09 AM EST
Quoted:
I thought I had made my mind up to buy the 458 over the 50B. Cheapest I found a 458(RRA) upper was 750. I couldn't get brass to load  either the 458 or the 50B. I was looking at the 50B forum and saw a 50B upper and 200 rounds of factory ammo for 1K. It had YHM 2 piece 4 rail hand guards on it and the factory muzzle brake. I went for it. It would cost me more to buy all of it new plus I would have ammo and the brass. The upper was like new. That's basically what made my decision for me. I think either round is a beast. I like the 450 Bushie also but I'd rather use 458 bullets instead of 451.


get a resizing die and you are good to go.

also it uses .452 diameter bullets...
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 8:12:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 9:04:09 AM EST
like.......



this????
the resized one is on the right



again resized on the right


note the lack of material pushed into the recessed part of the bands. another false argument against bullet resizing.
people have been resizing bullets to different calibers for decades.
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 9:45:27 AM EST
How does that resizing stuff work? Is there a machine or something that squishes em down to size? I know almost nothing about reloading...obviously.
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 9:47:48 AM EST
brass nuckles, nice idea to just swage down the bullets!  Mint!!!  That makes the 450B a lot more desirable IMHO.  

AZ-AR15: I have found the opposite to be true regardling the Magpul followers when used with the .50Beowulf!  I use those followers in all my .223 mags that I use for .50B.  I only have I think one or two "official" .50Beowulf mags right from AA and I keep that 100% stock as is.
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 10:37:48 AM EST
disclaimer!!!! i did not come up with the idea to resize the bullets... the pics are from some of the pioneers of 450B reloading data over at 450bushmaster.net

there is some serious R&D goin on over there.

most of them are using a .454" die on the hard stuff like the barnes solids, and then a .452" to get the final size, it just makes it a bit easier to do it in 2 stages.

midway sells bullet sizing dies for about 15 bucks/die

so.. for 30 bucks, you can use any bullet that the 458 socom can.

with any of the big bores you are really getting the best bang for your buck if you reload anyways.. but if you dont reload yet, the 450b still has the added plus of affordable, available ammo.

SIG556 mags hold 12 rounds with no modifications. at 2/30 bucks, thats a pretty good price for polymer mags.

what i want to see is one of these full of 450b...talk about firepower.

 
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 3:19:12 PM EST
All three will do the job.

The 450B is the only factory backed  ammo for now.
Shoots pistol bullets so not as many o choose from

50Beo, I had one. Good old 1/2" slug.
Again, pistol bullets.
I liked it but thought a 458 socom was a better round since
it headspaces on the shoulder and more bullets to choose from.

Has a 458 Socom too.

All thumpers.
All will kill most anything in NA with a slight edge to the 458 socom.

The problem I had with the 50 beo and 458 socom was trying to find brass.

Hawk bullets are superb in any of them, but especially the Hawk spitzers in 458.
.
The 300 gr barnes tipped bullet in 458 should stop anything on the planet with a couple of well placed shots.

Link Posted: 3/12/2010 4:31:07 PM EST
I suspect the lack of BAAR love is due to a lack of BAAR uppers.  A brief web search did not give me much except the discussion of a plan in 2008.  Has anything every come of it?  Don't know.
Link Posted: 3/12/2010 4:57:14 PM EST
Quoted:
brass nuckles, nice idea to just swage down the bullets!  Mint!!!  That makes the 450B a lot more desirable IMHO.  

AZ-AR15: I have found the opposite to be true regardling the Magpul followers when used with the .50Beowulf!  I use those followers in all my .223 mags that I use for .50B.  I only have I think one or two "official" .50Beowulf mags right from AA and I keep that 100% stock as is.


The Pmags have different followers than the anti-tilt Magpul sells for metal 5.56 mags. I was using an unmodified 30rnd Pmag today w/o a hitch.
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