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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/19/2003 1:35:41 PM EDT
Here is a question I haven't seen answered:

You are responsible for the arming of a group of police or military that is in a position where body armor is unlikely (counter-insurgency, say).
You are told to procure the BEST load for the rifles, but since you are in Slobovia you are using 30 caliber semi-auto rifles, M1s, L1A1, CETME or some such. You can have ammo custom loaded.

What Bullet

What Muzzle-Velocity

should we spec?

Does 7.62x51 or 30-06 really matter?

This is a serious question, not just gaming. What say ye?
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 2:12:41 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/19/2003 2:24:37 PM EDT by Charging_Handle]
In those circumstances, I would select the Hornady 155 gr AMAX for the 7.62x51 loads. This is hands down the most devastating anti-personnel .308 load on the market. If I couldn't get my hands on these, the 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips are also very good. Have them loaded to the same pressures as those normally found with .308 ammunition and those bullet weights. As far as powder goes for the .308, I find the Accurate 4064 to be well suited to match loads. Both of the above bullets will give you match grade accuracy out to 500-600 yards. This combo has good potential. In regards to 30-06, if this is to be used in M1 Garands, you need to be careful with powder selection. The 150 gr Ballistic Tips seem to have a good rep in M1's, but modern slow burning powders can throw off the op-rod. For these, I would select a powder such as IMR-4895, as that has been a long time standard for .30 cal military cartridges. I can't remember right off hand the exact charge for this load and I don't have my notes with me at the moment. But just for a rough idea, a 30-06 150 gr load uses anywhere from about 44-48 gr of powder. But again, wait until someone responds with the exact figures before loading any of this. BTW, while the bullets mentioned do fragment and penetrate to ideal levels in tissue, they are also good at defeating threats through glass...such as windshields. If I were going into harms way packing a .30 cal rifle, I'd want ammunition with one of those two bullets loaded in my weapon. And a last few words of advice....stay outta Slobovia!!! Hehe. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 2:51:10 PM EDT
Thanks, Handle; I have been loading for the Garand for a couple years now, 48g 4895 - 150g FMJ is the standard load; I would think start low for these others as construction may throw things off a little. I'm really looking for the best bullets in the proper velocity range; these look good to you, huh? Larry
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 3:45:26 PM EDT
these look good to you, huh?
View Quote
Yes, very good. I'd give the nod to the 155 gr AMAX between the two. This is just a devastating bullet. From all accounts I have heard (I think these are police shootings), there has never been a need to shoot a perp twice with these. But if you can't get your hands on these, the 150 gr Nosler Ballistic Tips will get it done as well. Another little known .30 cal bullet that offers excellent performance is the 165 gr Sierra Game King BTHP. This is what I use for whitetail and I have never had to track a deer hit with one yet. When properly placed the deer don't go anywhere but down. While deer hunting results alone aren't comparable to defensive applications, Dr. Gary Roberts has tested and approves this bullet, as well as the other two mentioned. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 3:57:49 PM EDT
I'm using the Black Hills GOLD 150Gn Ballistic Tip in my M1A Scout .308 The 155Gn AMAX has become too hard to find.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 4:04:46 PM EDT
I plan to load my own (M1 Garand) so I can just order them straight from Hornady if need be. Sounds beautiful; thanks to all. If there are any counter-opinions, feel free! More data is always cool.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 8:26:23 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Ohio: Here is a question I haven't seen answered: You are responsible for the arming of a group of police or military that is in a position where body armor is unlikely (counter-insurgency, say). You are told to procure the BEST load for the rifles, but since you are in Slobovia you are using 30 caliber semi-auto rifles, M1s, L1A1, CETME or some such. You can have ammo custom loaded. What Bullet What Muzzle-Velocity should we spec? Does 7.62x51 or 30-06 really matter? This is a serious question, not just gaming. What say ye?
View Quote
Definately the AMAX 155.
Link Posted: 8/19/2003 11:23:35 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 7:03:27 AM EDT
As far as my eyes are concerned, 300+ yards is time for artillery! In civilian life, I can't imagine a justified shoot that far out, either. A-Max it is, thanks a lot, guys! Larry
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 8:31:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Troy: The only downside to the 155gr A-Max is that it's more of a close-in load. Inside 300m, it is pretty much unbeatable. But for longer shots (i.e., sniper work), you'll want to stick with BTHP Match bullets. -Troy
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The AMAX bullet is an areodynamic boat tailed bullet. The Ballistic Coefficients compare this way:
Hornady 155 gr. AMAX - .435 Hornady 168 gr. HPBT - .450 Sierra 165 gr. HPBT - .363 Sierra 168 gr. SMK - .462 Sierra 150 gr. SMK - .417 Speer 168 gr. BTHP - .480
I don't see any reason why the 155 would be inferior... If the AMAX is only a 300 yd. bullet then how does the 168 SMK become a 600-800 yd. bullet?
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 11:36:14 AM EDT
Torf, I think the match load Troy is refering to for long range use is the 175 gr SMK, not the 168. But I agree with you in that the 155 gr AMAX is more than a 300 yard effective bullet. I would have no problem using them out to 500 yards, maybe a bit more. But when you start talking stuff at 800 yards or farther, the 175 gr SMK rules the roost. -Charging Handle
Link Posted: 8/20/2003 11:38:23 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/21/2003 7:49:56 AM EDT
Just to add my two cents worth: the heavier bullets are definitely the way to go for longer distances. However some semi-autos prefer the lighter bullets, especially when it comes to wear and tear on their gas systems. I've not tried the 155 AMAX but remember that the 155 grain weight is the standard bullet weight for Palma competition. I've shot plenty of 155 grain Sierras at 600-1000 yards. If you do your part, they'll do theirs.
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