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10/20/2017 1:01:18 AM
9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 9/20/2005 3:48:05 PM EDT
I want a conversion kit for my AR that I can use in my regular 5.56 upper. I have looked into the ciener but he seems to have some personality issues. How are his conversion kits? I am not too interested in hi-cap mags for the system I purchase unless they are reasonably priced and reliable.

Are there any other good systems out there? I know that there is a military system, but I heard they break the bank.

Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys.
Link Posted: 9/20/2005 4:14:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By akconvert:
I know that there is a military system, but I heard they break the bank.
Any help is appreciated. Thanks guys.




The military M261 conversion kits are actually pretty cheap if you keep your eyes open in the E n' E. I picked up mine with 2 mags for $80.

Link Posted: 9/21/2005 3:28:27 AM EDT
How does it compare to the Ciener? Are there any other systems out?
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 4:52:18 AM EDT

Originally Posted By akconvert:
How does it compare to the Ciener? Are there any other systems out?



I’ve never owned or shot the Ciener, but from what I’ve read here on the board some folks have had issues with the owner of the company when it came time for parts or service.

My M261 runs great. At first I had some feeding issues but learned real quick that the feed ramp built into the mags needs extra attention during cleaning. The kit is installed in my sons AR and he can easily go through a box of Winchester Dynapoints with out a problem. The drawback to the M261 is the 10 round mag capacity verses the Cieners 30 round mags.

Short of purchasing a dedicated .22 upper receiver, I know of only the M261 and Ceiner kits as drop in conversions.
Link Posted: 9/21/2005 11:01:11 AM EDT
Sounds like I want the military model. I will keep my eye on the EE. If one pops up that anyone knows about, I would be interested.

How hard is it to find replacement mags for the military unit?

Other than ciener being a jerk, are there problems with his unit?
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 9:54:09 AM EDT
DPMS is selling a drop-in version of the "kit" they use in their .22LR uppers:
www.dpmsinc.com/10Expand.asp?ProductCode=BCBA-22M
Looks to be a little cheaper than the Ciener, and mags are a little cheaper too.
Colt used to make a kit, but they're hard to find. There's the "Air Force" M261 kits too. Only the Ciener and DPMS are in current production as far as I know. I've heard the DPMS is based on the Colt.

FWIW, Frank White at Compass Lake says the M261 kits are the most reliable and he uses them in his $1000 service rifle .22 practice uppers. Most other custom uppers are built around the Ciener, probably because of the hi-caps and the fact that it the only one in production.


I have a Ciener and I had some issues with it when it was new but I think they were mostly caused by the ammo (oversized bullet -> incomplete chambering -> light hit FTFire -> FTEx -> broken extractor). It's running OK now and I didn't really do anything to fix it except file a point back on the extractor. Seems to be the norm with about any of the kits--some work out of the box and some need some tweaking. I've had no issues with the Ciener mags and they're all metal, unlike some others. Now that 30s are back in production you can probably find the 10s pretty cheap.

I've heard all the stories about JAC's poor customer service, but have not encountered it. I got the kit from a dealer at a gun show. I just ordered an extra mag and a couple of parts directly from JAC with no hassles. They shipped to the wrong address (sent it to the billing instead of the shipping) but I got the parts in a couple weeks after I mailed the list of parts and a MO.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 2:29:15 PM EDT
So tell me if this is correct.

Ciener=most likely it will be reliable
DPMS=Unproven
M261=Best possible unit if you can fork out the cash
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 3:25:35 PM EDT

Originally Posted By akconvert:
So tell me if this is correct.

Ciener=most likely it will be reliable
DPMS=Unproven
M261=Best possible unit if you can fork out the cash


From my reading on the board here, it seems the Cieners are about 50-50 reliable. Some work fine out of the box, and other guys have to tweak and tune them a bit, playing with the springs and whatnot. But it looks to me like most everybody gets the Cieners running EVENTUALLY if they keep at it.

My M261 has been very reliable, and most others here seem to report the same.
Link Posted: 9/22/2005 6:16:39 PM EDT
Did a lot of research and read alot of posts concerning 22 lr conversions kits. It was thoroughly confusing. Ended up taking a chance and purchased a used ciener kit from equipment exchange. Droped it in a bushmaster m4gery with a 1 in 9 twist barrel. Accuracy with inexpensive rem cyclone ammo about 2.5" at 50 yds. Took my 8 yr old shooting the other day, he had a blast, I was relegated to mag loading. The gun ran fine for the first few hundred rounds, no problems. The next few hundred rounds we had about five rounds that failed to fire, showed light fireing pin strikes and those same rounds failed to extract. A flick with my pocket knife solved that problem. At the end of our shooting session I can say that all concrete block was thoroughly rubbelized and all tin and alum. cans were adequately shreaded. The smile on my sons face said it all. I found the ciener unit acceptably accurate, reliable and most importantly FUN.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:19:53 AM EDT
Great 1st post Havegun. Once you post once, it gets addicting.

Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 9/23/2005 6:59:03 AM EDT

Ciener=most likely it will be reliable
DPMS=Unproven
M261=Best possible unit if you can fork out the cash


I think Snake covered the Ciener and M-261 pretty well. I don't know what it is about the M-261 that makes it any better than the Ciener and I can't point to any one thing about the Ciener that is always the problem. I should probably point out that many of the people who have to tweak their Cieners are trying to run subsonic ammo with suppressors instead of high-vel ammo like JAC recommends and/or trying to run full-auto. Many of those would run semi without the tweaks.

As far as the DPMS being unproven, I don't think that's entirely true. As far as I can tell the drop-in kit is the same bolt assembly and magazines as their dedicated uppers and rifles. Except for any differences in the actual chamber between the .22LR barrels and the chamber adapter it should be as reliable as their uppers, which from the reports I've seen are pretty reliable.
Link Posted: 9/24/2005 9:23:24 PM EDT
I just bought an M261 kit from the EE. Any suggestions for good 22LR ammo to use or ammo to avoid?
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 2:59:48 AM EDT
I just bought a 261 from Sarco. I tried out a friends Ciener. It was clean and lubed and nothing but problems. Probably needed a stronger spring. But I bought the 261 because it is proven.
Link Posted: 9/25/2005 3:34:35 AM EDT
I got tired of messing with my DPMS bull barrel upper. Was extremly accurate but I had issues with the bolt,magasines, and fireing pin . DPMS was good about helping me out and getting me up and running but it was a pain haveing the unit going tits up every 500 rounds or so . The unit I had was worthless for anything but bench work as it was so heavy. (my fault for buying the bull barrel)
I bought a new ceiner just to blast with one of the times the DPMS was out for repair. Only problem I ever had was a broken fireing pin. I had heard about JAC's bad reputation so I just took a spare ar-15 pin I had on hand and ground it down to fit. I am no machinist but I used a drill press as a half assed lathe along with
files and a dremel tool. I used the broken parts of the old Ceiner pin as a pattern .That was 4 or 5 thousand rounds ago and it is still running fine.
I have found accuracy to vary wildly with ammo brands and types (even more so than most rimfires,which is saying a lot ) I have had great results with the standard velociy lead loads shuch as CCI standard,federal match,and Wolf MT. I wouldn't expect a Ceiner to run well on standard vel loads untill it is well broken in.
The guy has a horrible reputation but I love the ceiner ar-15 unit and high quality easy to clean magazines .
I love the ability to throw this unit into whatever upper with whatever sighting sysem I happen to want to shoot that day.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 2:38:12 AM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911user:
I just bought an M261 kit from the EE. Any suggestions for good 22LR ammo to use or ammo to avoid?



I've had very good success with Winchester Dynapoints, I believe others will agree.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 9:25:20 AM EDT

Originally Posted By QUIB:

Originally Posted By 1911user:
I just bought an M261 kit from the EE. Any suggestions for good 22LR ammo to use or ammo to avoid?



I've had very good success with Winchester Dynapoints, I believe others will agree.



Dynapoints have a good reputation, so try them if you can find them. In general I've had good luck with the Federal 550 packs from Wal-Mart, about 50/50 with the Win. Xperts (some guns love them, some wont' run with them), and mostly bad luck with anything from Remington.

Ciener recommends High-Vel, but I'm not sure that applies to the M-261, which may be designed for Std-Vel. CCI Subsonic HPs, Wolf MT, and CCI Standard Velocity would be ones to try in the Std-Vel lineup.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 12:11:27 PM EDT
Dynapoints function well and are most accurate in four different barrels I've tried them in. Federal Walmart Bulks function perfectly but accuracy is disappointing. I refuse to run any lubed-lead bullets in my M261 conversions, only copper-washed stuff.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 3:08:56 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911user:
I just bought an M261 kit from the EE. Any suggestions for good 22LR ammo to use or ammo to avoid?



I am not sure about the M261 as I have never messed with one. I tried the Win DynaPoints with the Ciener kit and was not very please with them, but that was before getting the kit running 100% with the Lakeside spring kit. I have been using the Federal bulk ammo exclusively and for just plain blasting, it runs great.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 3:35:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/26/2005 3:39:29 PM EDT by sfax39]
My brother and I both own Ciener kits and have used them for years. A while back we did some experimental .22 bullet buying and the kits just shot the hell out of everything we put in them. We have pumped maybe ten thousand plus rounds each of cheap boxed ammo (around $10 to $12 at Walmart) and get a FTF or jam only once in a great while. Usually because the cheap ammo has the occasional lemon, but it's an acceptable trade off for the price to me.

ETA If you ask me just take your lumps from the hateful old man and buy his kit. He'll make it sting, i know, but it'll be worth it.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 3:42:01 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911user:
I just bought an M261 kit from the EE. Any suggestions for good 22LR ammo to use or ammo to avoid?

Federal bulk are just too poor of quality to fool with. IMO
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 4:48:58 PM EDT
I have had good luck with the 261 and the Remington bulk packs.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 4:55:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By BillofRights:
I have had good luck with the 261 and the Remington bulk packs.



That's good news. They shoot very well through my other 22s and are surprisingly accurate. I'll probably take several different types to the range and see what it likes.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 7:16:54 PM EDT

Originally Posted By 1911user:
I just bought an M261 kit from the EE. Any suggestions for good 22LR ammo to use or ammo to avoid?



I bought the M261 kit back when they were plentiful on the EE. After some research, somebody found that they were designed for Standard Velocity ammo. Supposedly High Velocity stuff stresses the kit over time and can lead to premature breakage. It was suggested that Wincheter Dynapoint would be best, as it is not as hot as the other bulk-pack HV ammo.

I now run Dynapoint exclusively in mine, and never have issues as long as the kit is CLEAN AND LUBED. This means servicing every 300-400rds or so. I've probably put 5000 rounds through so far.
Link Posted: 9/26/2005 7:37:59 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ScottyS:

Originally Posted By 1911user:
I just bought an M261 kit from the EE. Any suggestions for good 22LR ammo to use or ammo to avoid?



I bought the M261 kit back when they were plentiful on the EE. After some research, somebody found that they were designed for Standard Velocity ammo. Supposedly High Velocity stuff stresses the kit over time and can lead to premature breakage. It was suggested that Wincheter Dynapoint would be best, as it is not as hot as the other bulk-pack HV ammo.

I now run Dynapoint exclusively in mine, and never have issues as long as the kit is CLEAN AND LUBED. This means servicing every 300-400rds or so. I've probably put 5000 rounds through so far.


+1 on all that. Words of wisdom.

No great research needed on the SV ammo--that's what's called for right in the manual.
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