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Posted: 12/13/2016 3:25:01 PM EST
I know this is something of a provocative title, but when looking at the actual dimensions for the various .223/5.56 chambers out there, the .223 Wylde is, by a very large margin, the loosest, largest, and most forgiving of them all, in all but the freebore diameter and base-to-shoulder length. This diagram here shows the chamber reamer dimensions for the different chamberings, and I have confirmed with several barrel makers that their .223 Wylde chambers are made to these exact specifications.

http://i1283.photobucket.com/albums/a556/putnamev/.223%20Chamber%20Dimensions_zpslf1itwid.jpg

A lot of people seem to get hung up with the .223 Wylde's excellent accuracy, and therefore treat it as a "match" chamber, which carries the connotation of being very tight. I had this impression initially when I was debating whether to get the barrel for my latest AR-15 build in 5.56 NATO or .223 Wylde. I loved the idea of the increased accuracy of the Wylde, but was leery of reduced reliability when dirty or fouled, since I do not baby my guns. However, once I found the actual measurements, it would seem that this chambering would be even more forgiving of dirty and grime than the NATO chamber.

My thinking is also that the narrower (but much longer) freebore found in the .223 Wylde would not have any negative effect on reliability, since unlike many other parts of a rifle barrel's chamber, this area is scoured by the bullet and gas with every shot, and nothing obturates into it (the bullet's diameter is too small for obturation to occur there), so there is no possibility of anything building up there. 

What do you folks think of my theory on this? I have read from a good number of people that .223 Wylde is a great chamber for a fighting rifle, and I am thinking it may be the way to go. However, I almost always learn something I did not expect or anticipate when asking questions here, so I look forward to hearing anything I might not be considering about a potential downside of the .223 Wylde.

Thanks in advance! 
Link Posted: 12/13/2016 4:01:23 PM EST
What do I think if your theory, I think you are way over thinking things, Winter is such a fun time in both the boat as well as the gun industry!



Link Posted: 12/13/2016 6:32:24 PM EST
I have pressure signs on factory IMI ammunition shot through my .223 Wylde barrels, where as my 5.56 gun the brass shows none
Link Posted: 12/13/2016 8:07:40 PM EST
Delusional.
Link Posted: 12/13/2016 10:20:53 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Delusional.
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I do not doubt in the least that I am, but care to explain why?
Link Posted: 12/13/2016 10:47:14 PM EST
Your perception of what parts of a chamber design affect functional reliability seem to be nearly 180 degrees off.
Link Posted: 12/14/2016 10:38:36 AM EST
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Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Your perception of what parts of a chamber design affect functional reliability seem to be nearly 180 degrees off
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So you are thinking that a tighter chamber makes for a more accurate rifle, and are of the opinion that a 5.56 chamber is better? Care to elaborate on that?
Link Posted: 12/15/2016 5:19:59 PM EST
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Originally Posted By DaveP1:
What do I think if your theory, I think you are way over thinking things, Winter is such a fun time in both the boat as well as the gun industry!

<img src=http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/anim_rofl2.gif border=0 align=middle>
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You don't know the half of it; not only is it winter and I am trapped overthinking things (something I do about almost everything anyway), but I have a new baby at home, meaning I have not been to the range in 5 months (she is absolutely worth it, but I still do miss the occasional trigger time). Finally, the missus won't let me finish the build for one year, so I have a LOT of time to obsessively research minutiae about every tiny part of the rifle I am building. This ultralight 20" (I'm trying to keep it to 6.5lbs, which my calculations show are doable) is going to be my daughter's in as few years as it takes for her tiny, stubby arms to be able to grow enough so the shortest setting on the Rogers Superstoc can fit her, and so I am planning everything perfectly so she can have the best rifle for 3-gun, NRA High Power, hunting, and defending her homestead and my grandchildren one day!

As for the original topic of my post, I know that either chamber in a quality barrel will be just fine and serve reliably for just about any civilian use the rifle is likely to encounter. I figure, though, since I have the option, I might as well go for the best, by no matter how small a margin it is better. Accuracy is big for me, but never at the cost of reliability. Therefore, I am hoping to learn from you folks whether it is safe to say that a .223 Wylde chamber actually is as reliable or moreso than a 5.56.

Link Posted: 12/17/2016 12:03:10 PM EST
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Originally Posted By monkeypunch:
I have pressure signs on factory IMI ammunition shot through my .223 Wylde barrels, where as my 5.56 gun the brass shows none <img src=http://www.ar15.com/images/smilies/smiley_thinking.gif border=0 align=middle>
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That is worrisome indeed! May I ask what the manufacturer/s of your barrels is/are? The barrel I am considering is a Criterion, and they are pretty well-regarded. So far, I have only heard of pressure issues in RRA barrels.

Also, it would appear that the Canadian military uses the .223 Wylde in their C7/C8 series of ARs. Although it's Canada and all, if a modern NATO military force uses the Wylde chamber, it would seem that this chambering is very reliable.
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 2:26:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2016 2:35:32 PM EST by Gamma762]
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Originally Posted By AR-Tenner:
Also, it would appear that the Canadian military uses the .223 Wylde in their C7/C8 series of ARs.
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Originally Posted By AR-Tenner:
Also, it would appear that the Canadian military uses the .223 Wylde in their C7/C8 series of ARs.

Good grief no, where does this garbage come from?

This whole "Wylde" chamber thing mythology and marketing is completely out of control. Every time I see the word on the forums it seems like it's followed by a bunch of misleading nonsense hype.

What the Wylde is:
A perfectly fine niche market chamber design for precision/target barrels.
An older design, of which there are many modified versions and derivatives. The Wylde chamber itself is a derivative of an earlier 5.56 AR15/M16 chamber.
Such a marketing buzzword now that I'm convinced that many of the barrels marketed as Wylde chamber are actually something else.

What it it is not:
Not one of a "false trichotomy" of chambers ("223"/"Wylde"/"5.56"). There are dozens of chamber designs for the 223 Rem/5.56 Nato cartridge.
Not a good choice for a practical AR for hunting, defense, or action shooting competition.
Not compatible with chrome lining.
Not the chamber in between 223 and 5.56 that allows you to shoot both.
Not the perfect everything-for-everyone chamber design for AR15s.

As far as Canadian rifles, on the C8s anyway Diemaco developed what's colloquially referred to as the Dutch chamber to help alleviate some of the extraction problems resulting from the carbine gas system.

Originally Posted By AR-Tenner:
You don't know the half of it; not only is it winter and I am trapped overthinking things (something I do about almost everything anyway), but I have a new baby at home, meaning I have not been to the range in 5 months (she is absolutely worth it, but I still do miss the occasional trigger time). Finally, the missus won't let me finish the build for one year, so I have a LOT of time to obsessively research minutiae about every tiny part of the rifle I am building. This ultralight 20" (I'm trying to keep it to 6.5lbs, which my calculations show are doable) is going to be my daughter's in as few years as it takes for her tiny, stubby arms to be able to grow enough so the shortest setting on the Rogers Superstoc can fit her, and so I am planning everything perfectly so she can have the best rifle for 3-gun, NRA High Power, hunting, and defending her homestead and my grandchildren one day!

As for the original topic of my post, I know that either chamber in a quality barrel will be just fine and serve reliably for just about any civilian use the rifle is likely to encounter. I figure, though, since I have the option, I might as well go for the best, by no matter how small a margin it is better. Accuracy is big for me, but never at the cost of reliability. Therefore, I am hoping to learn from you folks whether it is safe to say that a .223 Wylde chamber actually is as reliable or moreso than a 5.56.

No. It's a niche market chamber for precision/target shooting and has potentially serious ramifications for general use ARs.

There is no "perfect" choice in chambers for best in everything.

What is best for you will depend on the usage, the ammo you shoot, what finish/lining the barrel has, what gas system/barrel length configuration you use, and the environment it will be used in.
Link Posted: 12/17/2016 3:16:27 PM EST
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Originally Posted By Gamma762:

Good grief no, where does this garbage come from?

This whole "Wylde" chamber thing mythology and marketing is completely out of control. Every time I see the word on the forums it seems like it's followed by a bunch of misleading nonsense hype.

What the Wylde is:
A perfectly fine niche market chamber design for precision/target barrels.
An older design, of which there are many modified versions and derivatives. The Wylde chamber itself is a derivative of an earlier 5.56 AR15/M16 chamber.
Such a marketing buzzword now that I'm convinced that many of the barrels marketed as Wylde chamber are actually something else.

What it it is not:
Not one of a "false trichotomy" of chambers ("223"/"Wylde"/"5.56"). There are dozens of chamber designs for the 223 Rem/5.56 Nato cartridge.
Not a good choice for a practical AR for hunting, defense, or action shooting competition. care to explain why?
Not compatible with chrome lining.
Not the chamber in between 223 and 5.56 that allows you to shoot both. my Wylde shoots both just fine.
Not the perfect everything-for-everyone chamber design for AR15s.

As far as Canadian rifles, on the C8s anyway Diemaco developed what's colloquially referred to as the Dutch chamber to help alleviate some of the extraction problems resulting from the carbine gas system.


No. It's a niche market chamber for precision/target shooting and has potentially serious ramifications for general use ARs. such as?

There is no "perfect" choice in chambers for best in everything.

What is best for you will depend on the usage, the ammo you shoot, what finish/lining the barrel has, what gas system/barrel length configuration you use, and the environment it will be used in.
View Quote

Link Posted: 12/17/2016 8:38:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/17/2016 8:39:33 PM EST by Knife_Sniper]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gamma762:

What it it is not:
Not one of a "false trichotomy" of chambers ("223"/"Wylde"/"5.56"). There are dozens of chamber designs for the 223 Rem/5.56 Nato cartridge.
Not a good choice for a practical AR for hunting, defense, or action shooting competition.
Not compatible with chrome lining.
Not the chamber in between 223 and 5.56 that allows you to shoot both.
Not the perfect everything-for-everyone chamber design for AR15s.

As far as Canadian rifles, on the C8s anyway Diemaco developed what's colloquially referred to as the Dutch chamber to help alleviate some of the extraction problems resulting from the carbine gas system.


No. It's a niche market chamber for precision/target shooting and has potentially serious ramifications for general use ARs.

There is no "perfect" choice in chambers for best in everything.

What is best for you will depend on the usage, the ammo you shoot, what finish/lining the barrel has, what gas system/barrel length configuration you use, and the environment it will be used in.
View Quote


Criterion offers barrels in wylde that they claim are chrome lined.
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 12:06:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2016 12:07:27 AM EST by Engel12626]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gamma762:
Good grief no, where does this garbage come from?

snip
View Quote

Care to explain why? A list of generalizations doesn't really help.
Link Posted: 12/18/2016 9:33:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 12/18/2016 9:45:16 AM EST by MS556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gamma762:

Good grief no, where does this garbage come from?

This whole "Wylde" chamber thing mythology and marketing is completely out of control. Every time I see the word on the forums it seems like it's followed by a bunch of misleading nonsense hype.

What the Wylde is:
A perfectly fine niche market chamber design for precision/target barrels.
An older design, of which there are many modified versions and derivatives. The Wylde chamber itself is a derivative of an earlier 5.56 AR15/M16 chamber.
Such a marketing buzzword now that I'm convinced that many of the barrels marketed as Wylde chamber are actually something else.

What it it is not:
Not one of a "false trichotomy" of chambers ("223"/"Wylde"/"5.56"). There are dozens of chamber designs for the 223 Rem/5.56 Nato cartridge.
Not a good choice for a practical AR for hunting, defense, or action shooting competition.
Not compatible with chrome lining.
Not the chamber in between 223 and 5.56 that allows you to shoot both.
Not the perfect everything-for-everyone chamber design for AR15s.

As far as Canadian rifles, on the C8s anyway Diemaco developed what's colloquially referred to as the Dutch chamber to help alleviate some of the extraction problems resulting from the carbine gas system.


No. It's a niche market chamber for precision/target shooting and has potentially serious ramifications for general use ARs.

There is no "perfect" choice in chambers for best in everything.

What is best for you will depend on the usage, the ammo you shoot, what finish/lining the barrel has, what gas system/barrel length configuration you use, and the environment it will be used in.
View Quote


While I generally agree with virtually all of this post, I have found my one and only Wylde chambered barrel to be extremely versatile. Don't get me wrong, my HD carbine has a 5.56 chamber.

But, I do hunt with the precision build. Without reservation. Any weather. I tested it with my full power Barnes TSX bullet handloads as well as Lake City M855. It cycles both flawlessly. I take it in the field with the Barnes 62 grain or 70 grain TSX loads. They are very hot loads. No problems with extraction or ejection. The barrel is a Lilja 416 stainless 16" 1:8 twist, Recce profile. I do not doubt that Lilja knows how to properly make a Wilde chamber. Lilja does not produce budget barrels with hyped up market-driven features.

I do share your concern that the market is currently flooded with cheap barrels of indifferent quality claiming to have Wylde chambers, made from stainless of some type, with 1:8 twist, and making all sort of "Wylde" (pun intended) claims.

I do not consider my experience with this particular Wylde barrel to be misleading nonsense hype.
Link Posted: 12/19/2016 1:20:49 PM EST
[Last Edit: 12/19/2016 2:27:46 PM EST by mr_h]
from OP's original post;
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"the .223 Wylde is, by a very large margin, the loosest, largest, and most forgiving of them all, in all but the freebore diameter and base-to-shoulder length."

"My thinking is also that the narrower (but much longer) freebore found in the .223 Wylde"

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

are these conflicting statements? or am i miss reading it?

i've had one white oak barrel 10 yrs ago with a wylde chamber that shot fine but didnot ran anything overly hot in it.

i've had barrel from companies like FN, BCM and noveske that claim 556 chambers but they were not happy with that lot of IMI that is extra hot. the LWRC barrels eat that hot ammo just fine.

lots of worn out chamber cutters our there i guess!
Link Posted: 12/19/2016 1:52:25 PM EST
more reliable? I'm skeptical.. but if a empirical test can show me results I'm on board. But till then this is speculation and people talking about their builds like they are the pinnacle of 223 wylde chambered rifles.
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