ok well heres the deal, I'm torn between what to plan for. I will have around 2500.00 cash when my b-day rolls around (3 months) I'll be 18. I have a buddy that will buy my pistol and transfer it to me, heres where the conflict is... I wouldn't want my buddy to have to special order a pistol and am not sure my parents would condone spending that much and trying to help me spend that much money on something that "kills people" (though I already have a decent collection of long guns) I'm probably going to end up buying 2 of the choices depending....

HK USP .45 (725.00)
Colt Python Elite 6" SS (1150.00)
Colt Gold Cup NM  (~850.00)
Kimber Gold Match SS (~1375.00)
RRA M4 or equivilent (~850.00)

The Python and USP would be my first choice (since I already have an AR) but am not sure about the wait from Colts Custom Shop...

Heres the catch, I don't want to have to wait FOREVER for a special order, and if I were to go with say the Kimber it may be my only new addition due to price. The Gold Cup and Python would be pushing it also. Which combo would you want and why?

How old do you have to be in MI to  purchase a pistol? I thought 18 was old enough, but maybe it's 21.

In any case, I'd say shoot a rental at a range, or borrow each of these as time allows, and decide based on the obvious things like felt recoil, ease of aim, accuracy, ammo costs and of course, aesthetic appeal (usually the most important). I personally love the Snake guns Colt put out, and you won't find another pistol that's got a better finsh, or a sweeter trigger pull IMHO. I don't know if I'd blow the a good portion of you $2500 on a combo tho.  Take your time and pick a favorite. Then learn to shoot one ragged hole with it.

You have to be 21 to buy from an FFL, you can buy from private individuals though. The ammo thing is basically not an issue as because I want a .45, so any auto I buy will be a .45, I already have a .223 and ammo is decently cheap, and .38 special isn't too bad either. I have no expenses besides maybe a LITTLE gas and food money, going to be going back to school and after thats done I'm probably going to enlist...

is this TRUE? does it apply in Georgia, too? Man, i've been waiting two and a half years to turn 21... dammit! [:(!]

~Santi

Well that may be something good to ask your local dealer... lol...

Sounds like you're setting up a 'straw man' purchase.  Which [b][i]IS[/i][/b] completely illegal, no matter if you can buy guns from individuals.

Posting your 'plan' to commit a federal felony in a public forum isn't the wisest of actions.

Its True in Michigan.  Georgia state laws may be (and probably are) different.  Check with your state law.

What do you mean no matter if you can. I've never heard anything like this before, and how would they make the distinction?

Yes, What you described is a "Straw Purchase"  This is being harshly enforced recently because this is how many felons (criminals) get firearms.  What happens is a criminal will have someone who can legally buy a gun purchase them and then sell it to the criminal.  It is ILLEGAL.  You cannot legally own a handgun unless you are 21 years old. IIRC. (legally of course)  If someone buys it and sells it to you it would be a straw purchase.  To answer your question, they would be able to distinguish this by the serial number which will be permanantly recorded when they legally purchase it.

I am a hardcore HK buff so I would not purchase any other handgun but an H&K.  I have 3 so far
USP 9mm Full size
UPS .40 Compact (silver)
USP .45 Tactical
These are IMO the best handguns ever.  Anyone would have a hard time out shooting the Tactical.  (Gun to Gun) Shooters vary but even my novice friend can shoot 2" 10 round groups at 25yds. That to me is impressive.  Maybe not to some of you but I was really impressed.  I was able to put 50 rounds all in the 10 ring.  (1st time out with it)

Not to rain on your parade because I am all for responsible gun owners, I just don't want you to nd up screwing up your right to legally own a firearm by getting busted for something you can wait a couple of years and not have to worry about it.  It is worth it.  trust me.  Straw purchases are under the scope especially since the DC sniper and another felon who was caught with 36 guns from Straw Purchases.

In order for me to buy a pistol from an individual I would have to get a purchase permit from the police station, obviously it would be legal that way, so I dunno... I'm gonna take a spin by the gun shop and talk to "the man"

If your state has a provision to legally have the L.E.O. sign off on your handgun purchase then that is a different story.  I was under the impression that it was a quiet private transaction state.  That is a little different.  If all works out then go witht e H&K.  You will be amazed, the gun will shoot better than  you can. I have never had a single jam or misfire with any of mine.  
Good Luck and have fun

Get a rifle, it is a more effective weapon and you can legally purchase it.

Avoid the Straw Man purchase, I know this is not what you want to hear, but responsibility and lawful ownership all come with the territory in a sport that will last a life time. DO NOT TAKE STUPID CHANCES WITH YOUR FUTURE GUN RIGHTS.

I also have to wonder what your doing with a "sizable collection of long arms under the age of 18 if you parents do not approve of you owning a pistol? Do they know about and approve of the long guns? Just a little red flag that went off in my brain when I read your post.

Anyhow once you turn 18, I'd get the RRA, Spend less than a grand on it and then at your age I'd put the rest twards school if your responsible or cars booze and girls if your like I was at that age and not quite so responsible.

Well of course they know about the rifles, they bought them with my money. I just talked to the local gun shop guy and said that with a purchase permit at 18 you can buy a pistol from a non ffl dealer no matter how long they had it. He said they prefer it be the parents doing it since you can still be under their rules, but he doesn't think they'd deny my buddy doing it. It is completely legal unless I was a felon, or under 18. But with a permit, all is well, and there is no reason to be denied it.... Thanks guys

Also, I'm leaning toward the HK and Kimber. I'm figuring go the big one first just incase it can be the only one, but I dunno, still have time to think about it...

MI Handgun laws:



The straw purchase only applies if your buying a handgun to sell to someone who is otherwise not eligable to posses one. I think you need the license though. You might want to call whoever is in charge of firearms in your state and ask. In NY its the county offices, I dont know about MI though.

in response to your actual question, i prefer the HK.  in my opinion, your on the right track bt the kimber and HK.  we have both in my house plus a newly aquired sig 220.  the HK is mine and the kimber and sig are my dads.  in the very capable hands of my dad, my full size USP 45 does just about everything the kimber can do, however ive never seen the HK fail to function.  it may have been the kimbers 10 rd mags or just the fact that it was new but it didnt work a time or two when we were putting a lot of rounds through it.  i, however, think the kimber is much easier to shoot well with its fantastic trigger pull.  i think it comes down to your intended purpose for the gun.  

-get the kimber if you want a fantastic target/plinking gun.  super accurate with a great trigger.

-get the usp if you want a great target/plinking gun that may have to be used for defensive purposes.  im sure you can easily find the torture testing done to the gun by HK (amazing).  also the HK can be made "safer" to your personal prefs with its DA/SA action with saftey and decocker.  also you have a very reliable 10 shot mag and the gun is very easy to clean.

if i personally had a usp and kimber, im sure id shoot the kimber more, but if i could have only 1 gun id still pick the usp.  it shoots much better than i can, extremely reliable, i think its "feels right" in my hands, oh...and IMHO it looks cooler too ;) unless you get the eclipse finish...WOW.  good luck and take care.

steven

IIRC a 'straw purchase' is when someone (the buddy) makes the buy [i]with the intention of turning around and selling it to someone else[/i].  Best bet is to check with a lawyer to make sure how they will enforce the law.

Remember its his buddy's A$$ on the line too.  Better check with a real lawyer before you try it. (gunshop clerks & owners are not the most reliable when it comes to matters of law - even gun laws).

I agree with Forest.  

Straw Purchase Law: Although the straw purchase of a firearms is not codified under Michigan Code, Michigan Penal Code, Chapter 750, Section 232a, states that, “a person who intentionally makes a material false statement on a application for a license to purchase a pistol . . . is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment of not more than 4 years, or a fine of not more than $2,000.”

If your buddy buys a gun and sells it to you he will be in violation of this section.

I also hate to rain on the parades but by federal law you have to be 21 just to possess and "control" a handgun.  I read the law but can't find it now to post it mabey someone else can.

The law talks about juveniles, there are also exceptions for a variety of reasons and for state/local law.

This was brought up in the Legal forum a few days ago and I posted the Federal law on the subject.

[i]Edited to add the link to the other thread[/i]
[url]http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=1&f=6&t=193969[/url]

Well I believe this is not true, you can buy ammo at 18, and you can take your pistol to the range at 18. Maybe to have your CCW...

Just have your buddy buy the gun, and he can let you use it, for like 6 months, a year, some long amount of time. At which point, your buddy decides to sell it to you. That way, he is not purchasing the gun with the sole intent of instantly re-selling it. Should take care of any straw-purchase issues.

It is still intent:

Straw Purchase Law: Although the straw purchase of a firearms is not codified under Michigan Code, Michigan Penal Code, Chapter 750, Section 232a, states that, “a person who intentionally makes a material false statement on a application for a license to purchase a pistol . . . is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment of not more than 4 years, or a fine of not more than $2,000.”

Have you considered just having one of your parents make the purchase?

If you want to shoot a lot, and practice a lot, I'd forget a centerfire right now, and get a RUGER .22 with a 5 1/2" Bull-barrel.

In regards to the straw man purchase, a quick & true story from Michigan:  my buddy saved his money, turned 18, went to the local cop shop and got a hangun purchase permit.  Bought a pistol.  Took it back to the cop shop to be inspected & recorded.  After several days he calls them and they say they will not give it back because he is only 18.

He throws a fit - he was under the impression that 18 was the legal age, and [b]the police gave him the permit, after a background check[/b].  So he yells at them, and they say they will give it to his parents.  He says no, I want to own the gun I saved & paid for.  So they tell him to bring in a friend, relative, whoever, that is 21 or older & they will give it to him and he can turn around and sell it to my buddy.  Which is exactly what they did.

This was Macolm County, for all you Michiganders.

Oh, and buy an H&K.

in NC you can, my dad bought me a pistol and gave it to me

If he bought the pistol from a dealer it is a violation.  If it was a private deal then he is an idiot for jumping through hoops for the cops.  Either way, the cops were wrong and you are giving out bad advice.

I'll second the motion not to depend on the legal opinion of gun store clerks in this matter.

I'm waiting an apparently unnecessary week for State Police approval of release of an HBAR AR15 in MD because the clerk who told me it was in (after ~2 1/2 months on order) thought we needed to do paperwork on it. This after the first (different) clerk said no paper work required. Go figure. I'm picking it up in a couple of days (I passed).

Also, having the parents buy the gun may not solve the straw man issue. That is what Sarah Brady did (straw man purchase) when she bought her son a deer rifle for Xmas. Go look it up.

I bought my Dad a rifle as a birthday gift a few years back. It was not a straw man purchase because :

1. I was the actual purchaser of the firearm.
2. My father can legally own the rifle I bought him.

I know quite a few folks who have bought and received firearms as gifts. It is perfectly lawful as long as the receiver of the gift is not a prohibited person under federal or state law.

I have done the same thing.

Oh you're crazy, shooting a .22 is nothing near as fun as a .45!



This is the way I hope it goes, but I still havent talked to him because alot of stuff has been going wrong around the house. Since my b-day and Christmas is coming up maybe I can exchange some presents for labor :)

So whats the verdict, if it were in my parents name for a few months would I still be able to go to the range by myself? And which way was determined legal/illegal?

I just fell in love with my Kimber so I bought it. I researched it quite a bit. Go with the Kimber. You can't go wrong. Remember to get a couple of Wilson Combat magazines to go with it.

I was thinking the same thing, I think the 1911 would be better for what I'd be doing, but maybe I can work it out to where I could buy both... ONE would make me happy enough for a while I'm sure.

Pepsimayn,  I can not believe you actually posted such questions here concerning a straw purchase.

It is unlawful for to purchase a firearm with the "intent to transfer" that firearm to a person who can not legally buy/own it.

I agree with what Forest said, not a good plan you got going on.

He bought the pistol from a dealer with a valid pistol purchase permit given to him by the police.

I gave no advice here, simply relayed a story.  Or are you referring to my suggestion to buy an H&K?

Well obviously its not quite as simple as that, of course I would not willingly and knowingly commit a felony. "its michigans legal loophole for an 18 year old to buy a handgun".


It is most certainly not legal to buy from a dealer at 18, thats possibly why the cops held the gun for someone 21, but that would obviously be the dealers fault.

Young fella- where do you shoot? What pistol do you shoot presently?

The reason I ask is because I think you need a real life mentor or two... not us internet buddies. Somebody to take you shooting... like to Thursday Night Bullseye League at the club.

What's your goal with your .45? Sounds like you just want to make it go "boom boom boom."

That's ok, it's fun for a couple of trips to the range. If you want to get good, you have to learn. Download the army marksmansip manual. Read it 10 times and live it.
http://www.bullseyepistol.com/
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/Dreyer_infonet/amucover.htm

If you don't think a .22 pistol sounds like fun, you will think that my idea is for old ladies: buy a nice taget airgun pistol, like the Baikal IZH-42. You are gonna pay around $250 or more. In terms of a competeive target pistol, this is the best value for the money out there. You don't need a $1200 match gun, but you get a decent grip you can modify to your (right) hand, and a nice adjustable trigger with a couple of ounce pull.

Shoot a thousand rounds or so at 10 meters. You should always, always keep the holes in the black of an NRA 10m target. Then keep them inside the 7 ring.... then see what you can do. The gun can hold Xs. All 420 fps of those 9 grain pellets, right on top of each other from a rest. Live the AMU manual.

Step 2 of my candy-assed plan: Get you parents to buy you a .22 pistol. The Ruger is a nice gun, an OK plinker, and lots of folks struggle manfully to upgrade it to be a taget shooter. It's trigger is never going to be better than OK, no matter who you pay to work it over and put custom parts in. Buy a Baikal IZH-35. Once again, the Russians have a gun they shoot at the olympics, and you benefit from their crappy economic situation. $400 and that is a steal. It will shoot with the $1300 Hammerlies, but it's not so pretty. It likes CCI Standard Velocity. Buy 2 cases of 500, and I bet you can get the price down to $3 per 100.

The IZH is big, ugly, and heavy- it's a dedicated target gun. Other nice, more rounded .22 pistols would be the S&W or Hammerli Trailside. Heck, even a Ruger will do you in a pinch. (Just not the .22/45... get the classic ruger)

Don't be afraid to buy a $500 .22 pistol. If you think you are going to be a serious shooter, then that .22 is going to be a lifetime companion.

Don't you think your folks would go for that? Now you are getting a pistol for hunting, plinking and target shooting. Besides, which would hurt more... getting hit in the eye 10 times with .22LR or being missed by a .45?

Step 3: You are now maybe 20 years old. You know what your NRA pistol scores are. You've been to local competition, and have bagged the "Big Three" of the .22 pistol hunter- Rabbit, Squirrel, and ...well, there must be something else. You KNOW what you want, because .45acp is a grand old round.

You are willing to wait for a gun you'll keep your whole life. You can decide for yourself if Kimber is over rated, if the Colt is really "all that" or if the new euro-guns are worth the abandoning of tradition and romance. You'll know if RRA makes a decent pistol, and you'll have your own opinion on Springfield.You will want something from the Custom Shop, at least. Maybe a gun from a name pistolsmith. It may take 18 months to get.

OK, I hope you will take this in the spirit it is given-

Shoot, shoot, shoot. BB gun, pellet gun, .22LR, skeet, 30-30, .223, whatever you can shoot the most of.

Beware of handguns. They require the most careful gun handling, and the best judgement. It's not a bad thing to wait for some things.

Pete
"a man's reach should excede his grasp"

MI law is quite clear on the fact 18 year olds can't buy handguns from FFLs.  They CAN own them and get them as gifts from family or by private purchase.

Police can issue a valid permit to the 18 year old - he just can't (legally) use it at a gunstore.   Your story is a great example of why you don't depend on Gunshop owners/clerks for legal advice.

I just read StinkyPete's post.  Listen to him - his advice is wise.

Sure it may be wise advice, but doesn't mean its the best. Don't assume for one minute I'm just "some dumb kid" I have a good deal of discipline and self control. I am also very mature for my age. I would need to get a purchase permit for a an air pistol anyways, whats the point. whats the sense of going to the theme park just to ride the smallest rides. There is no sense buying what I don't want, or not exactly what I don't want because I will not be happy. 12 gauge super mags 30-06 bolt actions, the ar15. I'm also not a very little guy that would need to sacrifice power for the ability to handle it. If I'm going to spend my hard earned money its going to be on the best overall choice for all options. Defense, target, competition. Now I'm not bashing you or your advice, but if thats the case they would have never sold 1 .50 AE or .454. I think .44 mag is overkill, but if someone breaks into my house I don't want to have to put 8 in the chest...

Just got off the phone with the fuzz, I asked him if it would be at all illegal for my parents to buy a handgun and transfer it to me and he said no, the only way it would be a felony is if I was a felon and not legally eligable to posses one. I asked if there was any amount of time they had to have the pistol and he said nope....

I'm confused.

What's your name?

Don't dealer = FFL?

Whats who's name?

And to legally deal firearms you have to be licensed, so dealer would mean ffl.

Yes dealer does = FFL.

You're confused because you didn't read ALL of the law.  Heck that isn't even the law - its the NRA's interpretation of the law.

You missed this note on that page:


BTW Getting it from the parents is differnent from a 'friend'.  If you can - have your parents make the sale.

By the way guys, I really appreciate hearing all your opinions...

What exactly does it take to get a purchase permit? My mom would almost definately do it, and my dad is lazy, but maybe as a gift to me (me paying of course) he'd do it... I read somewhere maybe in here that theres a basic knowledge test involved? Details??

Your freind that is buying the gun would have to lie to question #1 on the 4473 FFL form, which states something along the lines of "are you the actual purchaser of this firearm".

new_RRA_user:

MD has some funky laws on which AR-15s need handgun-style paperwork and which are just rifles.

Pepsimayn:

I can definately sympatize with your situation.  I have been shooting since 12, and when I bought my first handgun, it was a .45 ACP.  I got the usual advice, telling me to start with a .38 or .22.  In the end, I made my own decision.  Now I appreciate taking a .22 and a box of ammo to the range to work on my technique.  But I went years without a .22 handgun.  It's a solid part of the shooting foundation, but I'm not sure it's absolutely neccissary to own one.  Definately, a new shooter should start with one.  But you don't seem to be a new shooter.

About the handgun choice, there is a difference between a target gun and a carry gun that mainly lies in the trigger.  I've shot a plain, low-en Kimber .45 which had a fantastically light and smooth trigger-- way too light for carry.

However, I have to second the airgun suggestion.  Sometimes, it's a bother to grab everything and head to the range.

Question 12a ATF form 4473-"Are you the actual buyer of the firearm(s)listed on this form? WARNING: You are not the actual buyer if you are acquiring the firearm(s) on behalf of another person . If you are not the actual buyer, the dealer cannot transfer the firearm(s) to you.(See important Notice 1 for actual buyer definition and examples.)" [left]Important notice says: ACTUAL BUYER EXAMPLES: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr.Smith gives Mr.Jones the money for the firearm. Mr. Jones is NOT the actual buyer of the firearm and must answer "no" to question 12a. The licensee may not transfer the firearm to Mr. Jones. However, if Mr Brown goes to buy a firearm with his own money to give to Mr Black as a present, Mr Brown is the actual buyer of the firearm and should answer "yes" to question 12a.[/left] [left]Under the way you described how you would acquire this firearm your friend would be making a straw purchase. Would you get caught, probably not. We all break many laws every day(some even felonies) with knowledge of what we are doing, playing the odds that we will not(   and usually don't) get caught. But you have to remember that this is a felony, not to you but to your friend, you would probably just loose the gun. [/left] [left]Remember, we are all just giving you our .02 and you know the laws in the state where you live. I personally would not want to do anything that would affect me owning a firearm for the rest of my life. because my interp of the law and the ATF or your local PD may be different. And about posting your plans on a message board like this , don't worry, the Feds probably don't read boards like this anyway......[:o][/left]

Under federal law, a person may not purchase a handgun unless they have reached their 21st birthday. Federal law trumps state law, if--in fact--it says what you think it says.

There is no separate law for private sales. The same law applies to private individuals and to Federal Firearms Licensees. Either seller must satisfy themself that the sale is legal under ALL applicable laws.

You may POSSESS AND USE a handgun under the age of 21 if legally purchased by a parent or legal guardian. Just how far under 21, and how and where you may possess and use the handgun, varies from state to state.

Just a reminder that a straw purchase is an easily prosecuted offense, and once you commit the offense there is a lengthy statute of limitations....

This is not legal advice and should not be construed as such.