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Posted: 10/10/2004 9:23:09 AM EST
I'm considering either a Yankee Hill or a Surefire rail system for my Bushy LtWt. Anyone have an opinion or experience with either of these units? Goood/Bad?

Info would be most appreciated.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 11:45:58 AM EST
AR15reviews.com

Look in under "Uppers", there's a review of each. Lots of info that comes up in a Search, as well.

HTH,
Josh

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 2:58:38 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/12/2004 2:58:50 PM EST by Cypher214]
Go with the Yankee Hill.

I have read bad reviews of the Surefire but only GOOD about Yankee Hill. I have a YHM Free Float handguard and it is great.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:10:19 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 3:11:46 PM EST

Originally Posted By Cypher214:
Go with the Yankee Hill.

I have read bad reviews of the Surefire but only GOOD about Yankee Hill. I have a YHM Free Float handguard and it is great.



Where did you read the bad reviews on the Surefire M73? I've heard nothing but great reviews. Its probably the best deal on the market for a rail system.
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:38:15 PM EST
I have heard good and bad things about both systems, but I have not used the YHM. I have used the SF M73 as well as others. I got the PD to buy a few M73 systems for our team. So far I’m very pleased with them. Very simple to install and very sturdy. Great price for what you get. I shot a few mags on burst today with the M73 rail system on my issued entry weapon. I was very impressed when I touched the system between the rails (sounds kinda kinky). It was warm but know where close to hot. We use vert. grips but with just the included rail covers on I think it would still be fine to hold, especially gloved. I do know that the YHM systems don’t have heat shields. Not sure if that would be a problem or not. I would imagine with ladder or regular panels and/or vert. grip they would be fine as well. If you were to add 3 ladder panels to the YHM system the price would be about the same as the SF M73, so I don’t think cost could really be a deciding factor.

Ray

Link Posted: 10/12/2004 4:39:13 PM EST
SUREFIRE!!
Link Posted: 10/12/2004 9:22:46 PM EST
Just be aware that the TD foregrip has no 100% wiggle free fit on the SF.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:26:34 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:46:14 AM EST
Personally I would go with the YH.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:49:47 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:

Originally Posted By Cato:
Just be aware that the TD foregrip has no 100% wiggle free fit on the SF.




If you do get one that doesn't fit, I have a good contact at SF to get you one that DOES fit correctly...


C4



Grant, shouldn't it be the other way around? I'd get a plastic part exchanged before I'd do an aluminum part? I just don't get the blind loyalty to TD. "If a part does not work with TD, why of course it is the other part's fault". Whats up with that?

Don't even think to tell me that their plastic is 100% to the good. I've worked in the plastics industry and I know what happens to the stuff post molding. Nomex on.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:00:57 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:09:13 AM EST
Grant, you can't tell me that, I know from a discussion with another manufacturer that optically measured the TD grip that it was off the scale. I also know that plastic flexes when cut, no matter how you do it (except with a laser maybe). And ya I know that SF has flashing, but I also know that TD stuff does infact deviate from the specs post manufacture. Finally the wiggle would be from either an undersized rail or oversized TD grip. Both of which could be on the outer most tolerance on the runout exacerbating the issue. You can hold the party line about the TD being perfect, but frankly, I'm not buying into that, and I don't think everyone here does either.

No flame dude, just stating the facts. Plastics will deviate post manufacture when subjected to heat or cold, or even continued curing. This has been my experience.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:47:05 AM EST
They will both work, but for me it was pretty simple. The YHM is level with the flattop rail when installed, the Surefire is not.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 12:10:54 PM EST
TNRonin,

Let me address some of your points/ opinions on our products, specifically the BGV-MK46 vertical grip.

You mentioned you work or have worked in the plastics industry, so the following information should be very easy for you to verify.

Depending on the materials specified for a certain application, plastics can be 'cocktailed' to deliver optimum performance. They can be heat and impact modified. Combined with the latest 3D engineering programs, these materials allow the design and manufacture of components that far exceed the capabilities of wrought metal parts for certain purposes.

B2 Spirit bomber comes to mind.

Materials that have a proper re-inforcing matrix, have sufficient wall thicknesses, and are well supported mechanically during the op, do not flex during the cutting process to any descernable degree. We tested that extensively. That is why we chose that process.

Molded dovetails DO, however, have the issues you pointed out. When you have a critically dimensioned interface surface that is subject to shrinkage, post molding hydration, etc. you have trouble.

All post molded dimensional instability to any concernable degree ceases after 48 hrs. That is when we cut our parts for the dovetail.

As far as our material being subjected to heat or cold, our grip was selected by WARCOM/SEALS
for the MK 48 MOD 0 7.62mm belt fed. The grip routinely sucked up temps of 350 degrees +, belt after belt , without melting, loosening or 'going soft'. It didn't burn the operator's hand either. It insulated heat, instead of conducting it.

We sized our cutter to fit the entire acceptable tolerance range of the Mil-Std 1913 rail. We designed in a certain amount of collision that provides a wobble free fit through the floor, mean and ceiling specified in the blueprint. If it's a true M-S 1913, we fit.

When you say someone has optically measured our grip and it's off the scale...who's scale?
You also mention our specs deviate post manufacture. How so?

We haven't released our blueprints to anyone.

Best,

Jeff

Link Posted: 10/13/2004 12:20:05 PM EST
I have had two YHM forearms and they are great. No problems.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 1:57:29 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 3:55:07 PM EST


Grant,

Anytime. We try to be as helpful as possible.

The Mil-Std 1913 issue is a tough one. There are few actual manufacturers of authentic M-S 1913
rail systems. Only they can claim to be 'Mil-Spec'.

There are many commercial producers of rail systems, however. Some are really good, some not so good. Some do adhere to the Mil-Std as if they actually produce for a U.S. Government contract. Others are 'loose' with the Standard, picking and choosing what parts they want to incorporate into their rail.

The latter creates obvious problems for component mfg's who follow the Standard to the letter.

When choosing a rail system, price should be at the bottom of the list. Shooters should examine the quality of design and construction of the rail and see how closely it complies with M-S 1913. This eliminates costly refit and aggravation down the road when updating the weapon with accessories.

Nothing sucks like buying something twice.

Best,

Jeff
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 4:37:22 PM EST
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 6:05:12 PM EST
First sorry for the delay, took the wife out to dinner and a movie.

Ok,

Molded dovetails DO, however, have the issues you pointed out. When you have a critically dimensioned interface surface that is subject to shrinkage, post molding hydration, etc. you have trouble.


I had the enligtening opportunity to work as a QC engineer in a plant that made among other things critical plastic parts for non-syncronous motors (the gears). During the course of my expensive training, I was, along with all the other "engineers" at the school advised that nothing is 100% correct, let me say this again, NOTHING is made 100% perfectly all the time. The instructor (the author of the book/manual), described an antecdotal incident at TI (Texas Instruments). They had 100% optical inspection of the circuit boards for a particular product. These boards were on a conveyor belt which went under a MAGNIFYING GLASS, which were inspected by a trained person. Well they continued to run into unacceptable PPM defects on the products. So this guy was brought in to do a capability study and try to determine the issues. He stated that they literally placed a sheet of paper on the top of a circuit board and it passed inspection, several times IIRC.

Like I said, NOTHING is going to be 100% perfect.

Now regarding the optical measuring of the rails, this was done at a reputable manufacturer. My understanding when discussing the matter was that a base measurement was taken at the opening and then measured along the opening. Nobody has ever said anything about having your dimensions, unless you have intentionally engineered the product to vary in dimensions, one could assume that the measurements taken on one end should match all the other points taken in the same line and surface.

I have no doubt that you guys make a quality product, but, NOTHING is 100% all the time, which is why you have tolerances + -, I don't care who you are, statistically that is impossible. If that offends you I apologize, but I stand by what I said.

I'm not by any stretch of the imagination an expert on plastics, but I can say from my MANY conversations with the plastics engineer at the plant, who is an expert, that plastics are not perfect.

Respectfully,

Mitch
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 7:53:48 PM EST
TRonin,

I respect your experience, and your statement is correct, not everything is 100% all the time and that's why there are tolerences. I think what was said before, is that TD VGs do infact fall into the + and - tolerence window which is printed in black and white on the 1913 Milspec drawing. This ground has been covered in previous threads.

If someone purchases a TDVG and happens to own a fancy schmancy optic micrometer, and finds otherwise, call TangoDown, I hear their customer service is top notch and they'll take care of it.

I have TD VGs on a SureFire, KAC's, and LMT MRPs . The grip went on all of em' without incedent, is rock solid, and all have worked great. The SureFire M73 is great for the price!!!! My only complaint is that the top rail does not co-witness with the reciever rail for whatever reason.


Link Posted: 10/13/2004 8:42:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
If you do get one that doesn't fit, I have a good contact at SF to get you one that DOES fit correctly...



Good to know! Because in this case SF sent another one which had wiggle with the TD grip.
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 9:04:05 PM EST
How heavy are YHM and Surefire? (both non FF)
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:06:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 6:14:21 AM EST

Originally Posted By C4iGrant:
It happens. I don't think a little wiggle is a big deal as my KAC grips have wiggled on my KAC rails for years. My concnern would be that it either DOESN'T go on the rail and that it FALLS off...
C4



+2
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 6:51:34 AM EST
O.K. Now I know these might be a stupid questions...but here they go anyway:

Both this systems can be attached without having to take off the front site/gas block, right?

So, that make neither of these "free floating", right?

So, what is the advantage of "free floating" versus these systems?

I know on other guns, free floated barrels usually increase the gun's accuracy. But, on, say a M4 16"
barreled gun, is it really enough to make much difference?

I really like the idea that I don't need to take off the gas block to install these rails.

Final questions: if I go with these systems, with a 16" M4, what "size" do I order.

And finally, who has the best prices on these systems...who should I order from?
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 7:09:11 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 7:10:13 AM EST by TNRonin]

Originally Posted By bfieldburt:
O.K. Now I know these might be a stupid questions...but here they go anyway:

Both this systems can be attached without having to take off the front site/gas block, right?
Right
So, that make neither of these "free floating", right?
Right
So, what is the advantage of "free floating" versus these systems?
Accuracy
I know on other guns, free floated barrels usually increase the gun's accuracy. But, on, say a M4 16"
barreled gun, is it really enough to make much difference?
No, which is why I got rid of my RAS II and went with on of these discussed.
I really like the idea that I don't need to take off the gas block to install these rails.
Me too!
Final questions: if I go with these systems, with a 16" M4, what "size" do I order.
Surefire and YHM is the Carbine
And finally, who has the best prices on these systems...who should I order from?
For the SF I'd go Grant all the way, great commo, service, and price.
For the YHM, brightflashlights, he is in the industry section. He has great prices and is GTG.





HTH
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