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11/22/2017 10:05:29 PM
Posted: 10/3/2004 3:55:26 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 4:25:20 PM EST by brillo]
Got a note from an AR15.com member whom I'm unable to reply to either through email or IM Messages:

I ordered 2000 rounds of XM193 from Sportsman's Guide. What I got was bulk ammo, 500 rounds per box, in a plastic bag. The side of the box said "XM193PD" and was also labeled "For Training Purposes Only".

Sportsman's Guide changed last week to the bulk pack, similar to the current packaging of the XM855 from other vendors, and kept the same price as the more common 20/box Federal. This is the first I've seen of the XM193PD. Any experiences with this stuff?
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 3:58:43 PM EST
Yup...I thought I was gettig 20 rd boxes and I got 500 round bags too.
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:04:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By W-W:
Yup...I thought I was gettig 20 rd boxes and I got 500 round bags too.



Price man what is the price????
They always forget the price
Link Posted: 10/3/2004 4:15:44 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/3/2004 4:16:15 PM EST by brillo]
$179.97/1000 + shipping, $170.97 + shipping for SG members. See Ammo Price List under XM193.
Link Posted: 10/6/2004 3:25:27 AM EST
Received my bulk pack last night. Haven't had time to inspect it yet though. Looks good though.
We'll see.....
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 12:59:13 PM EST
If it's the same as xm193 that ammoman and others sell, why do they call it xm193pd and more importantly why do they say "for trianing purposes only"?
Link Posted: 10/8/2004 1:04:38 PM EST
IIRC they are over runs of PD orders and were intended for PD training purposes.
Link Posted: 10/10/2004 1:40:38 PM EST
So....just what does "training purposes" mean? does it mean that there are going to be dud rounds for clearing drills, or is the ammo subloaded? Thats a pretty ambiguous term and there must be some reason or labeling it that way. Is it non tax paid ammo?
Link Posted: 10/13/2004 5:33:19 PM EST
I just recieved an order of 2,000rds of this ammo that I will be using at a Tiger Valley CQB training week later this month and was curious about the "For training use only" markings on the box, so I joined up here looking for some info, good to see I wasn't the only curious one. Good tho know it is "PD" or law enforcement ammo, quality should be high.

I expect this ammo to preform well, and I'll let you all know my impressions of it around the first week of Nov when I return home.


John
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 3:24:03 AM EST
The bottom line is that no one here for sure knows what "for training purposes" really mean. On the surface, it means exactly what it say but most of us are more curious than that. There are a couple of thread which give a good explanation but unless the information came directly from the ammunition manufacturer and the right person within that organization (someone in the know), anything else is speculation.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 5:09:14 AM EST
Hmmm... you see this with pistol cal ammo alot - box indicates LE only (probably cause no FAET was originally paid), but some sort of "for training purposes only" sticker on it. My understanding is that it is LE ammo that for which a sample was found to be out of spec in some way - and they usually dump the whole lot. This ammo, with a P/N that has a "PD" suffic (presumably police dept?) and indicated for training purposes only sure sounds like the same thing.
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 10:47:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By kensteele:
The bottom line is that no one here for sure knows what "for training purposes" really mean. On the surface, it means exactly what it say but most of us are more curious than that. There are a couple of thread which give a good explanation but unless the information came directly from the ammunition manufacturer and the right person within that organization (someone in the know), anything else is speculation.



Curiosity killed the cat and that is the bottom line.

OD's Dictionary

"For Training Purposes Only" Definition - In no way expect this ammunition to be used to save your rear in a real situation. Use at range and for no other use. Buy Black Hills (or any other high quality ammo you prefer) and use it for protection/duty. PERIOD!!!
Link Posted: 10/14/2004 1:04:23 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/14/2004 1:05:26 PM EST by kensteele]

Originally Posted By OD45:

Originally Posted By kensteele:
The bottom line is that no one here for sure knows what "for training purposes" really mean. On the surface, it means exactly what it say but most of us are more curious than that. There are a couple of thread which give a good explanation but unless the information came directly from the ammunition manufacturer and the right person within that organization (someone in the know), anything else is speculation.



Curiosity killed the cat and that is the bottom line.

OD's Dictionary

"For Training Purposes Only" Definition - In no way expect this ammunition to be used to save your rear in a real situation. Use at range and for no other use. Buy Black Hills (or any other high quality ammo you prefer) and use it for protection/duty. PERIOD!!!



That is only a guess. My good a good guess but certainly far from being fact and probably shouldn't even be repeated.

We have an idea what this means, we don't need a dictionary to have an idea. What we really want to know is the exact reason. Is there a test machine that puts out this ammo? Do they ALWAYS run 1 million rounds with the top off to clean the jig and these are those rounds? (Whatever that means). Is it policy to mark box "for training purposes only" for liability, tax, logistical, transportation, quality reasons...maybe it's simply ID only and nothing else. Maybe they bought a million boxes marked and now have to use them for something instead of trashing them.

Certainly YOU don't know else you would have said, this is a "fact." We are trying to find someone who can say "this is a fact." I (among others) have been trying to find someone over a Lake City to explain this. Otherwise I think we are all comfortable believing it has not fully passed. Some of us would like to know HOW. Primers, cases, the whole lot, a sample,...what?

Edit: Maybe no one else is curious but I was since I have friends who know people who work there. It's just difficult to find somebody who will say "I know for sure..."
Link Posted: 10/15/2004 1:42:54 AM EST
I got 2K of the XM193PD ammo from the big brown truck on Tuesday. It's mixed ammo with headstamps ranging from '01 to '03. It seems like it's mostly '01 vintage with the purple primer sealer. I put ~400 rounds(sampled out of all four boxes Sportsman's Guide sent me) downrange yesterday and it all ran without a hitch. I think this is good stuff and I ordered 2K more rounds last night. It's right at $182 per 1000 rounds for me so the price is unbeatable.
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 5:27:26 PM EST
I have run this past a few friends I have in the LE community, and they all tell me it is either production over-run or older & turned in for a fresher lot. It is marked "Training Purposes Only" so it can be sold/re-sold to the general public. Either way, I'll be going thru about 2k rounds of it next week in training, so it's good to know the quality is high.

John
Link Posted: 10/20/2004 7:17:07 PM EST
Someone just posted that there will be a batch coming that has primer sealant contaminated with dust, thus rejected.

So many explanation from everyone else but the source.
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 6:58:38 AM EST

Originally Posted By kensteele:
Someone just posted that there will be a batch coming that has primer sealant contaminated with dust, thus rejected.

So many explanation from everyone else but the source.



Are the "suspect" lot #'s known?
Link Posted: 10/21/2004 2:02:23 PM EST

Originally Posted By GODBLESSTHEUSA:

Originally Posted By kensteele:
Someone just posted that there will be a batch coming that has primer sealant contaminated with dust, thus rejected.

So many explanation from everyone else but the source.



Are the "suspect" lot #'s known?



http://ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=207233
Link Posted: 10/27/2004 9:01:09 AM EST
I bought 1000 rounds. While I was loading it onto stripper clips, I was inspecting at them a little because of what another poster mentioned about SG's LC SS109 ammo.

I got through the first 900 with less than a half dozen with slight dents on the shoulders. When I got to the last 50 rounds in the bottom of the second 500 rd box, I found three rounds that were dented really badly, one was pinched on opposite sides of the shoulder. It wasn't that big a deal, there were 20 extra rounds in the first box and 15 extra in the second box. But it is something to watch out for.

I emailed SG about it, they apoligized but didn't answer my question about the "Training Purposes" markings. I also attached a couple of jpg's I scanned of the three.

I'm going to order some more for blasting, but I'm going to make sure I look at them when I'm putting them on strippers.
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