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Posted: 4/23/2005 11:26:46 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/3/2005 9:30:13 AM EDT by OODA_Loop]
I don't know if this has been posted before.



Link Posted: 4/23/2005 12:07:57 PM EDT
That's a great pic!!! Im building a XM-177E2 as we speak and seeing those TRUE AMERICAN HEROES IS always a privleadge. Please excuse my spelling. Thanks for the cool pic.
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 12:08:33 PM EDT
cool stuff
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:05:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:13:03 PM EDT
I have to show this picture to my friend. His dad was a Son Tay Raider.

TAG
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:19:45 PM EDT
Wow. That's the most 177s I've ever seen in one place before.

Way to go. Great pic.
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:36:01 PM EDT
IVE GOT ONE ALMOST DONE .i cant wait. then ill have eight black sticks
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:40:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2005 3:24:52 PM EDT by uxb]
Dick Meadows:



And Elliott "Bud" Sydnor was the commander of the ground forces upon insertion. He was a graduate of the ROTC program at Western Kentucky University and was recently inducted in to the ROTC Hall of Fame. WKU has turned out a disproportionate number of graduates who end up in SOCOM or other high-speed low-drag units.

The XMs were sporting SinglePoint Nite sights. Some had custom made carry-handle sight mounts, others were just taped down with electrical tape or duct tape.

uxb
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:48:27 PM EDT
Schweet pics!!
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:52:32 PM EDT
I'm a WKU Alumni. Are you still in BG?
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:55:06 PM EDT
I would recommend the following book:

SOG, A Photo History of the Secret War



More XMs than you can shake a stick at. Lots of truly amazing stories of true heroes.

Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:58:10 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bjones28:
I'm a WKU Alumni. Are you still in BG?



I work in BG, but live between Franklin, KY and BG, KY. Was in their ROTC program 1977-1980, and graduated Air Assault, Airborne School, and the JFK Special Warfare Center. Then had a stint in Central America via way of Lebanon first.
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 5:59:40 PM EDT

Originally Posted By uxb:
Dick Meadors:

www.usmilitaryknives.com/Son_Tay6a.JPG

And Eugene "Bud" Sydnor was the commander of the ground forces upon insertion. He was a graduate of the ROTC program at Western Kentucky University and was recently inducted in to the ROTC Hall of Fame. WKU has turned out a disproportionate number of graduates who end up in SOCOM or other high-speed low-drag units.

The XMs were sporting Swedish Single-Point sights. Some had custom made carry-handle sight mounts, others were just taped down with electrical tape or duct tape.

uxb



Dick Meadows is a legend. One big question is.......THEY HAD DOT SIGHTS ON THE RAID!!??

Please give more details.
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 6:00:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2005 6:57:20 PM EDT by OODA_Loop]
nt
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 6:34:03 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 6:42:47 PM EDT
man, i would love an XM177E2 look-alike...how long are those flashiders? (moderators?) if they're 5"+ would it be possible to get an A1 upper w/ 11" barrel and have one welded on? i heard somewhere that since those lower the sound a little bit, they're considered sound suppressors. does anyone make just regular flashiders that dont lower the report?
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 6:49:46 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 11:18:23 AM EDT by uxb]
Thet are 4.3" in length, and mil-spec non-NFA moderators are manufactured by WA Tom at Total Silence Inc. I plan to get one when my barrel is chooped and gas port enlarged to 0.093".

Total Silence, Inc. is listed in the Industry Forum and here is a pic of the mil-spec Non-NFA moderator:

Link Posted: 4/23/2005 6:52:03 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
man, i would love an XM177E2 look-alike...how long are those flashiders? (moderators?) if they're 5"+ would it be possible to get an A1 upper w/ 11" barrel and have one welded on? i heard somewhere that since those lower the sound a little bit, they're considered sound suppressors. does anyone make just regular flashiders that dont lower the report?



There are a number of 5.5" FS copies that are legal and available.
There is one that even screws on a 16" bbl and covers the barrel back by 5.5" to keep a 16" length and not have to permanently attach it.
These guys specialize: www.totalsilenceinc.com
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 7:23:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 7:29:14 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/23/2005 7:31:09 PM EDT by model927]
I dont know who made them but they did have a red dot sight to improve theri chances at hitting at night in the dark on the raid,That book on SOG missions shows where the Xm177 stopped an AK round at the lower extension at the receiver where the nut is.
Link Posted: 4/23/2005 11:20:26 PM EDT
Notice: No body armor, ya wusses.
Link Posted: 4/24/2005 2:02:50 AM EDT
Those guys were pretty hardcore.

Their NVG consists of only red tinted goggles.
Link Posted: 4/24/2005 2:20:54 AM EDT
never saw that photo before.
Link Posted: 4/24/2005 5:45:30 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/24/2005 10:12:57 PM EDT

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
man, i would love an XM177E2 look-alike...how long are those flashiders? (moderators?) if they're 5"+ would it be possible to get an A1 upper w/ 11" barrel and have one welded on? i heard somewhere that since those lower the sound a little bit, they're considered sound suppressors. does anyone make just regular flashiders that dont lower the report?



There are a number of 5.5" FS copies that are legal and available.
There is one that even screws on a 16" bbl and covers the barrel back by 5.5" to keep a 16" length and not have to permanently attach it.
These guys specialize: www.totalsilenceinc.com



Who makes these? I'd like to see one, because it sounds like a good way to make my 16" fishing pole barrel look a little shorter than it really is.
Link Posted: 4/25/2005 10:28:05 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2005 10:41:06 AM EDT by 266-23]

Originally Posted By Lapp_Dance:

Originally Posted By captainpooby:

Originally Posted By Blanco_Diablo:
man, i would love an XM177E2 look-alike...how long are those flashiders? (moderators?) if they're 5"+ would it be possible to get an A1 upper w/ 11" barrel and have one welded on? i heard somewhere that since those lower the sound a little bit, they're considered sound suppressors. does anyone make just regular flashiders that dont lower the report?



There are a number of 5.5" FS copies that are legal and available.
There is one that even screws on a 16" bbl and covers the barrel back by 5.5" to keep a 16" length and not have to permanently attach it.
These guys specialize: www.totalsilenceinc.com



Who makes these? I'd like to see one, because it sounds like a good way to make my 16" fishing pole barrel look a little shorter than it really is.



Bushmaster makes the slip-overs for both light [A1] and heavier [A2} barrels. They also make a faux XM177 for short barrels that is not a sound moderator. All for around $15-$16 each. I would suggest that you get the A2 slip-over even for an ultralight barrel because they all add several ounces to the barrel. The A2 slip-over has less weight. I use their faux 4 1/2" XM 177 CAR 15 FS on my 10.25" Title 2. But really, ever since I saw pictures of Seal Team One in Vietnam with standard A1 birdcages on their 10.5" CARs, I have preferred that "stubby look." It's a lot lighter weight, and looks even more ultra cool than the 4 1/2" moderators, in my personal opinion.
Link Posted: 4/25/2005 2:25:37 PM EDT
The first pic is interesting. It appears that there are at least two rifles that have an 11.5 inch barrel on an upper receiver without the forward assist (the Airforce version of the XM177E2 - GAU-5A/A). I've never heard of this model being "issue" to Army special forces. Maybe they were XM177s that had been upgraded to the 11.5 inch barrel? Or, maybe they were transition models that happen to be available at the time?

Dan



Link Posted: 4/25/2005 2:44:38 PM EDT
Very cool pics, thanks!
Link Posted: 4/25/2005 7:29:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/25/2005 8:05:47 PM EDT
what's SON TAY?
Link Posted: 4/25/2005 8:34:09 PM EDT
Son Tay (correct spelling?) was a notoriously brutal POW camp located in North Vietnam. So many high level flight officers shot down over Vietnam were held there that a special forces raid was conducted to rescue as many of these officers as possible from the camp. This raid included purposely crash landing a helicopter full of operators in the courtyard of the camp complex, ensuring operators would be literally inside the camp before the North Vietnamese knew what hit them. As it went, however, all the prisoners in the camp had been moved a few days before the raid actually took place, so although the raid was highly successful and the North Vietnamese took heavy casualties, no prisoners were rescued.

Wont see shit like that anymore. Imagine the guys that voluntered to be in the crash landed chopper!! Brave as all hell.
Link Posted: 4/25/2005 9:43:47 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/25/2005 10:14:54 PM EDT by Death2usama]

Originally Posted By GrahamD:
Son Tay (correct spelling?) was a notoriously brutal POW camp located in North Vietnam. So many high level flight officers shot down over Vietnam were held there that a special forces raid was conducted to rescue as many of these officers as possible from the camp. This raid included purposely crash landing a helicopter full of operators in the courtyard of the camp complex, ensuring operators would be literally inside the camp before the North Vietnamese knew what hit them. As it went, however, all the prisoners in the camp had been moved a few days before the raid actually took place, so although the raid was highly successful and the North Vietnamese took heavy casualties, no prisoners were rescued.

Wont see shit like that anymore. Imagine the guys that voluntered to be in the crash landed chopper!! Brave as all hell.


I think you still see that type of men in our Armed Forces today there guy
Link Posted: 4/26/2005 7:51:32 AM EDT
Thanks GrahamD

Link Posted: 4/26/2005 9:06:47 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2005 9:08:19 AM EDT by Da_Bunny]
The purpose for the origional 4 1/2"moderator was to provide enough back pressure for the XM177 to cycle reliably. It's design had the effect of reducing the noise level, ever so slightly. If I remember correctly, the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact argued that soldiers equipped with the "silenced" XM177 could be shot as spies or assassins if they were captured. The pre-M4 fix was to equip the XM177 with a 14.5" pencil barrel. I remember seeing Rangers at Ft Lewis equipped with the the A1 style carbine with the longer barrel and A1 flash hider. I don't recall what the weapon was designated.
Link Posted: 4/26/2005 9:44:23 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Da_Bunny:
....I remember seeing Rangers at Ft Lewis equipped with the the A1 style carbine with the longer barrel and A1 flash hider. I don't recall what the weapon was designated.



About four weeks ago I was in a book store flipping through a book of 'Special Forces'. On the first page in the chapter about Rangers there was a color photo of a Ranger with a XM-177E2 type with a 14.5" barrel during training at some fort (I don't recall where). Photo was from the late 80's IIRC.

The book was kinda cheesy (looked like it was written for kids/teenagers) but it had some nice photos (like the one with the Ranger).
Link Posted: 4/26/2005 10:06:54 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 4/26/2005 10:10:51 AM EDT by 266-23]
The picture I have in mind comes fom an old Guns and Ammo annual entitled Assault Rifles and was published in Fall of 1991. It had a picture of Seal Team One getting ready to leave out on a mission, two of the guys were holding Stoners, the other guy had a 10" CAR 15 with an A1 birdcage on it. He also had two 20 round mags jungle taped together. The A1 looked as if it were almost screwed right into the front sight post. It was so cool looking because it was so unorthodox looking. One of the Stoners had the big box-drum in the magazine well.
Link Posted: 4/26/2005 5:07:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 4/26/2005 5:58:17 PM EDT
Those XM177s accounted for alot of communist Chinese dead(yes, Chinese) at Son Tay.
Link Posted: 4/26/2005 6:07:30 PM EDT
Great pic
Link Posted: 5/5/2005 7:25:25 PM EDT
I have been a SOG Historian for over 20+ years now and have a large collection of books, equipment, and info (other sources) on SOG. If anybody is interested, I will try and post some pictures of my collection(specifically equipment and INERT ordnance) that they used. In the mean time those of you who have been bitten by the SOG bug and have any questions about them you can go ahead and e-mail me or ask them here on this thread. If I don't have the answer(s) I usually can get them thru some contacts. In the mean time here are two of the best web sites dealing with SOG there is and a great way to start:

www.onetao.com
This has some great pictures of Plaster and especially SSgt "Doug" Miller who won the CMH while in Laos with RT Vermont).


www.macvsog.org
Mr. Noe has done a tremendous job with this site and it comes HIGHLY reccommended. Spend a quite afternoon and just read the stories! You won't be disapointed!)

Playing "Run thru the Jungle" By CCR while reading the articles and looking at the pictures is highly reccommended too!
Link Posted: 5/5/2005 7:33:57 PM EDT
So are these sound moderators restricted under the NFA?

Cool photos.

Link Posted: 5/5/2005 7:34:28 PM EDT

Originally Posted By bnz42:
Those XM177s accounted for alot of communist Chinese dead(yes, Chinese) at Son Tay.



More info please.

Thanks
Link Posted: 5/6/2005 2:42:46 AM EDT

Da Bunny
The purpose for the origional 4 1/2"moderator was to provide enough back pressure for the XM177 to cycle reliably. It's design had the effect of reducing the noise level, ever so slightly. If I remember correctly, the Soviet Union and Warsaw Pact argued that soldiers equipped with the "silenced" XM177 could be shot as spies or assassins if they were captured. The pre-M4 fix was to equip the XM177 with a 14.5" pencil barrel. I remember seeing Rangers at Ft Lewis equipped with the the A1 style carbine with the longer barrel and A1 flash hider. I don't recall what the weapon was designated.



Here is the only pic I have. Is from 1986




CRC
So are these sound moderators restricted under the NFA?



YES. BATF classifies them as suppressors. Here is a pic of the inside of the moderator. You can see the baffels.


Link Posted: 5/6/2005 3:53:03 AM EDT
Those are some great pics, and some good info to boot . . . .
Link Posted: 5/6/2005 7:00:53 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/6/2005 9:56:04 AM EDT by Forest]

Originally Posted By Luckystiff:
...Here is the only pic I have. Is from 1986



.



BINGO! That is the picture I saw in the book I mentioned.

Edited to Add: Ok looks like someone changed the photos from Hunt101 - it was a photo of a Ranger with a 14.5" pencil barrel before the beat-up pickup showed up.
Link Posted: 5/6/2005 7:39:07 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GrahamD:
Son Tay (correct spelling?) was a notoriously brutal POW camp located in North Vietnam. So many high level flight officers shot down over Vietnam were held there that a special forces raid was conducted to rescue as many of these officers as possible from the camp. This raid included purposely crash landing a helicopter full of operators in the courtyard of the camp complex, ensuring operators would be literally inside the camp before the North Vietnamese knew what hit them. As it went, however, all the prisoners in the camp had been moved a few days before the raid actually took place, so although the raid was highly successful and the North Vietnamese took heavy casualties, no prisoners were rescued.

Wont see shit like that anymore. Imagine the guys that voluntered to be in the crash landed chopper!! Brave as all hell.



One thing to add, although the prisoners had been moved a few days earlier, the North Vietnamese were quite scared a second raid would be launched and subsequently started treating the POWs better in comparison to the way they were treated pre-Son Tay raid. Those guys embody the true warrior spirit, and will continue to provide a model for the selfless devotion between fellow American servicemen for the rest of time.
Link Posted: 5/6/2005 7:59:22 AM EDT
Col. Charlie Beckwith mentions in "Delta Force" that the Son Tay force had trained SO WELL that they literally OVERTRAINED for the mission. This seems a bit odd BUT his reasoning was that they went over the raid SO many times and had it down SO well that if they had just performed the mission after a couple of times of "getting it right" they would have been able to save many POW's because they would have performed the raid when POW's were still present. An interesting observation.

These men were the cream of the crop....amazing men in an amazing and bizzare conflict. If any of you get the chance, go the the Infantry Museum on Main Post at Fort Benning, GA. and check out the MOH Winners section of the museum. It'll send shivers down your spine and bring tears to your eyes.
Link Posted: 5/6/2005 12:45:18 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 5/6/2005 12:51:06 PM EDT by eodinert]

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By Luckystiff:
...Here is the only pic I have. Is from 1986









I was in 1st Bn., 75th Inf from '83 to '85, before the 'tree suit' was worn by the rangers, and the black beret still meant something.

In B Company, and the rest of battalion as I remember, the only ones to carry the shorty '16s were weapons platoon, as they had mortars and 90mm recoiless rifles and such to hump (the ranger on the right of the picture is carrying one).. Everyone else had M16A1s, sometimes MP5SDs or shotguns, as mission dictated.

You can see two 1st batt scrolls on this rangers shoulders, so this is post grenada. 2nd batt had a different looking scroll, and there was no third batt or regiment until '85 or so, when the 'new' scrolls came online.

So this picture dates somewhere between '83 and '85.

Also interesting in the picture is the headgear (PC= Patrol Cap) the three rangers are wearing. The two in the back have darker covers, made of heavy material that didn't 'roll' right. There was no issue headgear made of light weight rip stop fabric, like the guy in front is wearing. The only place to get one was to take an old blouse to Ranger Joes or ARCO and have it custom made; the guy in front obviously did, while the guys in back probably had not been to Ranger School yet.

It's official: I'm old.
Link Posted: 5/6/2005 12:48:05 PM EDT
Not sure where the info on the "moderator" came from in regards to helping the weapon cycle.

The Moderator provided three purposes:
1) It suppressed the sound down to more bearable levels.
2) It served as a "Flash Supressor".
3) It gave the SF trooper the ability to launch rifle grenades. Yes, this was done in Vietnam by SOG.
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 6:56:14 AM EDT
Anyone want to take over hosting for the first pic?
Link Posted: 7/3/2005 9:20:14 AM EDT
OODA-Loop. I'll host it. IM sent with new link. Just edit your original post and add the link attached. It's also been color corrected.

uxb
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