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Posted: 10/30/2006 8:48:10 PM EDT
I know I will!!!

I got this off of Leitner Wise's new website.









Quick specs:

LW50 SS chromelined Poly barrels with NATO 7.62 chambers (12", 16.1", 18" and 20")

DPMS/SR25 mags/ and our own future mags with stainless bodies w/anti-tilt followers

FF rail 11" and 13.4" long X 2.3" W X 2.47" H I.D. 1.6" 4140 barrel nut with 6061-T6 body Mil-Spec Type3 Hardcoat w/Teflon, laser etched T-Marks. Monolithic appearance with indexing/anti-rotation lugs. Knight rail panel notches located at the front, middle and rear.

AR15/M-16 internal matchining for use with Chip McCormick type trigger packs

F/A and Semi models

MAGPULL UBR or PRS stock, Maid P-Grip and Trigger Guard standard.

Uppers and Lowers CNC 7075-T6 bar stock (Billet) construction. Mil-Spec Type3 Hardcoat w/Teflon, laser etched T-Marks and foward assist.... May switch to forgings at a latter date.

We are going to be offering two models: The one featured above and a side (left) charging model also with forward assist.

Final weights and pricing to be announced.....Release date Shot Show 07.


What do you guys think?  It is supposed to be piston driven with a self regualting LW piston system.

The rail is designed to allow 1.5" suppressors JUST BARELY fit into the rail.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 9:36:05 PM EDT
[#1]
No

I have the LW 10.5" I love the piston on short and or F/A guns. On anything else they dont make sense.

They are only marginally cleaner, blowback is the real problem.
Accuracy- personally I dont know if it suffers, but with any other piston system(Fal/M1A) it does.  It sure as hell can't be better.
My regular length guns are at 100%,-even my AR10- so I dont need a piston- Hell I've got my AR10A4 back up to a couple thousand rounds without cleaning and its fine.

It fixes the problems with carbines and shorter gas sytems, on anything elese its a waste. IMO

Link Posted: 10/30/2006 9:38:53 PM EDT
[#2]
Yes, yes I would.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 9:41:50 PM EDT
[#3]
Yes, if they offered a manual shut off valve for manual operation
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 10:50:47 PM EDT
[#4]
I would buy that if it cost less than 130% the cost of a DI .308.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 11:04:48 PM EDT
[#5]

Quoted:
No

I have the LW 10.5" I love the piston on short and or F/A guns. On anything else they dont make sense.

They are only marginally cleaner, blowback is the real problem.
Accuracy- personally I dont know if it suffers, but with any other piston system(Fal/M1A) it does.  It sure as hell can't be better.
My regular length guns are at 100%,-even my AR10- so I dont need a piston- Hell I've got my AR10A4 back up to a couple thousand rounds without cleaning and its fine.

It fixes the problems with carbines and shorter gas sytems, on anything elese its a waste. IMO



I absolutely agree, the LW piston system doesn't lower accuracy too much from a DI in comparison to a more classic piston driven rifle, but it still lowers it simply because of more parts / barrel stress.

I love my AR-10 carbine as well, and after seeing all these AR's shooting 15,000 rounds without being cleaned, I have no reason to consider piston driven AR's other than ease of cleaning.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 11:10:21 PM EDT
[#6]

Quoted:
I know I will!!!

I got this off of Leitner Wise's new website.


img97.imageshack.us/img97/6452/308moutbb2.jpg
img97.imageshack.us/img97/2386/308mout2qr9.jpg
img97.imageshack.us/img97/1445/308mout3et0.jpg
img97.imageshack.us/img97/3539/308mout4ic1.jpg
img97.imageshack.us/img97/411/lowerhk9.jpg


Quick specs:

LW50 SS chromelined Poly barrels with NATO 7.62 chambers (12", 16.1", 18" and 20")

DPMS/SR25 mags/ and our own future mags with stainless bodies w/anti-tilt followers

FF rail 11" and 13.4" long X 2.3" W X 2.47" H I.D. 1.6" 4140 barrel nut with 6061-T6 body Mil-Spec Type3 Hardcoat w/Teflon, laser etched T-Marks. Monolithic appearance with indexing/anti-rotation lugs. Knight rail panel notches located at the front, middle and rear.

AR15/M-16 internal matchining for use with Chip McCormick type trigger packs

F/A and Semi models

MAGPULL UBR or PRS stock, Maid P-Grip and Trigger Guard standard.

Uppers and Lowers CNC 7075-T6 bar stock (Billet) construction. Mil-Spec Type3 Hardcoat w/Teflon, laser etched T-Marks and foward assist.... May switch to forgings at a latter date.

We are going to be offering two models: The one featured above and a side (left) charging model also with forward assist.

Final weights and pricing to be announced.....Release date Shot Show 07.


What do you guys think?  It is supposed to be piston driven with a self regualting LW piston system.

The rail is designed to allow 1.5" suppressors JUST BARELY fit into the rail.


Mo...

I won't buy any piston-driven AR-lookalike...

ARs are supposed to be direct gas, it's what makes them work as well as they do...

If you want a piston drive, get a FAL or M14 clone...
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 11:12:57 PM EDT
[#7]

Quoted:

Quoted:
<snip>


Mo...

I won't buy any piston-driven AR-lookalike...

ARs are supposed to be direct gas, it's what makes them work as well as they do...

If you want a piston drive, get a FAL or M14 clone...


I look at it from the opposite direction: it's a FAL, but with the great ergonomics and modularity of an AR.
Link Posted: 10/30/2006 11:25:40 PM EDT
[#8]

Quoted:
What do you guys think?  It is supposed to be piston driven with a self regualting LW piston system.


I was about to non-chalantly say NO . . . but after seeing those pix . . . wow, it sure looks neat.

BUT . . . it fills no need for me.  I would prefer to have both a LRB M14SA Government Issue and a DSA StG58 Austrian FAL from a historical perspective in terms of the 7.62mm NATO cartridge.  Other than these two rifles, I have no further interest in .308 Win or 7.62mm NATO (unless I ever get an HK auto-sear and then I'll be looking for an HK21E!!).

I like my AR15's in 5.56mm and I like my bolt guns in flavors other than .308 Win.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 12:31:44 AM EDT
[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
<snip>


Mo...

I won't buy any piston-driven AR-lookalike...

ARs are supposed to be direct gas, it's what makes them work as well as they do...

If you want a piston drive, get a FAL or M14 clone...


I look at it from the opposite direction: it's a FAL, but with the great ergonomics and modularity of an AR.


But really... There is no modularity in .308 AR platforms, as there is no standard... A piston-op one is even more non-standard...

FALs can be had with a rail system, and the ergonomics are about the same as a piston-op AR (the major advantages of the AR go away when you make it piston drive, after all)...

The FAL is a historical curiosity (I have one), but it was by no means better than the AR-10 (let alone the current generation of AR-10 derivatives)....

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 1:02:28 AM EDT
[#10]
Personally, I would wait for the SCAR-H, but since I live in CA, I can't get either.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 1:10:50 AM EDT
[#11]
Might be a good alternative for folks who would like the unobtanium HK417.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 2:54:33 AM EDT
[#12]
Nope, no cash and no need.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 3:46:16 AM EDT
[#13]
Looks sweet!  I'll get one.... if I have money.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 4:02:27 AM EDT
[#14]

At least the 20 round mags will be cheap and easy to find...
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:29:21 AM EDT
[#15]
The upper & lower receivers look exactly very similar like to the DPMS LR308, right down to the forward assist, brass deflector and mags. Here's my DPMS AP4 308 to compare.

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:36:09 AM EDT
[#16]
It is different at the rear of the receiver, it has a non permanant trigger guard, etc.  Its a different receiver.

I think this smokes an M14 which is not an optic friendly platform and it will shoot circles around the FAL.

I still dont get you guys with the "it degrades accuracy" comments.  Its pretty much proven the DI system has zero advantage to the LW piston as fas as that is concerned.

This is just supposed to be an ultra reliable, sub MOA guaranteed, medium range precision semi auto.  It is WAY lighter than a match grade M14 and the M14 offers no increase in accuracy.  Its my understanding that they will offer an accuracy gaurantee on these once they get enough barrels and upper working to ensure they all are consistant sub MOA capable with factory ammo.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:45:06 AM EDT
[#17]
Not in the DPMS platform, and not for barrels over 14.5".

The only purpose I ever had in pursuing one was that I want to do a "Leonidas" project with a 12.5-13" barrel.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:47:06 AM EDT
[#18]
Its not in the DPMS platform.  As I said its a proproetary receiver, proprietary barrel extension etc.  Different (better) materials than DPMS, etc. The DPMS receivers and carriers and bolts and barrels DO NOT work with this rifle. Dont base the whole gun off the shape and location of the magwell and brass defelctor.  And they are offering a factory SBR 12" barrel.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:48:53 AM EDT
[#19]
I think I'd rather get the SCAR-H in .308.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:49:43 AM EDT
[#20]

Quoted:
I think I'd rather get the SCAR-H in .308.


When is that being released?
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:52:00 AM EDT
[#21]
I have been waiting on a .308 until I saw how this shook out. I am definitely interested at Phoebus' less than 130% of DI guns.



96Ag
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 5:57:01 AM EDT
[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I think I'd rather get the SCAR-H in .308.


When is that being released?


I can wait.

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 6:36:27 AM EDT
[#23]
Absolutely.  I've been waiting for them to finally release the 7.62.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 6:39:16 AM EDT
[#24]
I'll wait for the SCAR too.  In the meantime, FALs exist.

I don't really get the appeal to piston driven ARs.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 6:41:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Why would anyone buy one of those when we already have the proven FAL?

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:35:00 AM EDT
[#26]

Quoted:
Why would anyone buy one of those when we already have the proven FAL?



Because it will suppress MUCH better than a FAL.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:38:33 AM EDT
[#27]
Yeah sure.  Just as soon as the H&K 417 is sold to civilians.

HK417 pr0n
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:47:07 AM EDT
[#28]
Yes, but only if it take cheap,and plentiful Metric FAL mags.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:53:20 AM EDT
[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why would anyone buy one of those when we already have the proven FAL?



Because it will suppress MUCH better than a FAL.


I should hope that's it's more accurate than the FAL, also.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 8:27:09 AM EDT
[#30]
I've been thinking for a while that my SOC needs a bigger brother.

In other words, I've been anticipating this one for months.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 8:43:59 AM EDT
[#31]

Quoted:
Its not in the DPMS platform.


Yeah, OK.

A Mercury isn't a Ford either.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:07:10 AM EDT
[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why would anyone buy one of those when we already have the proven FAL?



Because it will suppress MUCH better than a FAL.


I should hope that's it's more accurate than the FAL, also.


No kidding... where are the FALs that shoot sub MOA and have great triggers?  Oh yeah... they dont exist.  

I am not interested in the HK 417 at ALL due to current mounting restrictions.  You simply cannot have a QD optic at the right height.  If it was released they will probably make mounts at the right height but they dont exist now it also has limitations on objective size the other AR platforms dont have.


I would have thoughbt there would be MUCH more interest than this... and all the talk of using FAL mags is kind of sickening.  Show me the AR rifle that is reliable and uses FAL mags...  It requires SHORT bolt lugs and that just seems like its asking for problems.  Id rather have a rifle that works.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:17:28 AM EDT
[#33]
I'm down for one of these as long as the price is reasonable.  LWRC should commit to mags earlier rather than later and offer them with the system initially.

Stephen
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 11:41:51 AM EDT
[#34]
Personally, I think anything but SR25/DPMS mags suck hard in 308 AR's. Kudos for making a logical decision there.

It depends alot on the pricing for me. I'd love to have a side charging 308 AR that was suppressor friendly. The DPMS 308's are rock solid, but I'll admit I love the concept of an even more user friendly 308.

If I could get a side charging piston driven 308 AR with a 13.4" rail system, an 18" SS barrel, a Magpul stock, and a good trigger for under $2500, I'd probably have to get a chain for my wallet to keep it from running away.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 12:45:16 PM EDT
[#35]
If it was $1000 or less....

Didnt cost $20+ for a magazine....

And was reliable?  And had good/great accuracy?



Hell yes.


But this, will be more than $1000....the mags will be more than $20+....
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 2:22:16 PM EDT
[#36]
I would wait for the semi SCAR-H!
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 2:33:41 PM EDT
[#37]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why would anyone buy one of those when we already have the proven FAL?



Because it will suppress MUCH better than a FAL.


Better irons
Better optics platform
FF barrel
Much more accurate

So basically, no advantage at all.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 3:25:26 PM EDT
[#38]

Quoted:
and all the talk of using FAL mags is kind of sickening.  Show me the AR rifle that is reliable and uses FAL mags...  It requires SHORT bolt lugs and that just seems like its asking for problems.  Id rather have a rifle that works.


I agree, DevL.  FAL mags in a 7.62 AR platform are PROVEN not to work well.  Just ask Bushmaster and Rock River how well these are selling and performing.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 3:47:55 PM EDT
[#39]
another proprietary 308 AR

both the ar10 and lr308 are more than capable of going a couple thousand rounds without clean

in addition running a surpressor on a 308 AR is as easy as installing a adjustible gas block,even surpressed the 308 AR can go hundreds of rounds without cleaning.

if i want a piston based rifle I will find a FAL, M14 or wait for the SCAR H,
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 3:54:11 PM EDT
[#40]
It is certainly within the realm of posibility they could offer this as a DI weapon as well as a piston.  Only difference would be the carrier and putting a spacer on a gas tube instead of the piston nozzle.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 4:01:38 PM EDT
[#41]
This isn't news, those have been out for years and years! They're called the M1a or something.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 4:07:02 PM EDT
[#42]
.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 4:21:35 PM EDT
[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:
and all the talk of using FAL mags is kind of sickening.  Show me the AR rifle that is reliable and uses FAL mags...  It requires SHORT bolt lugs and that just seems like its asking for problems.  Id rather have a rifle that works.


I agree, DevL.  FAL mags in a 7.62 AR platform are PROVEN not to work well.  Just ask Bushmaster and Rock River how well these are selling and performing.


+1, but on that line of thought, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to figure out if G3 mags could be made to work. Obviously the mag well area would have to be adjusted (unless maybe you modified the mags, which would run up cost and defeat the purpose), but I wonder if it would work better with the AR style bolt than the FAL ones do? I mean, although the G3 uses that roller locking system, and is obviously different than the AR bolt, I wonder if there would be enough clearance, etc, and if it could be made to lock up okay and all? - Note that I haven't looked at one with the thought of trying to analyze things... it's just a thought off the top of my head. I do like the idea of trying to use a cheap plentiful mag, but only if it would work properly.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 4:32:30 PM EDT
[#44]

Quoted:
This is just supposed to be an ultra reliable, sub MOA guaranteed, medium range precision semi auto.  It is WAY lighter than a match grade M14 and the M14 offers no increase in accuracy.  Its my understanding that they will offer an accuracy gaurantee on these once they get enough barrels and upper working to ensure they all are consistant sub MOA capable with factory ammo.


i hope they can pull off even moa.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 6:07:58 PM EDT
[#45]
I already have one..its called M14.And the 14 evevn without being accurized is a very capable sniper weapon...just go back to vietnam when standard 14s were being used with ART scopes.I beleive Peter Arnett did a story on supressed M14s that were being used during that time as he called them"amazingly quiet".
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:20:26 PM EDT
[#46]
This rifle will be light, precision M14s are HEAVY, especially railed ones.  M14 requires bedding, this does not.  This is optics friendly, M14?  Nope.  Shrouded suppressors on the M14?  Nope.  The M14 does not compare in any way to this platform other than caliber and mag capacity.  You guys need to get out of the Stone Age.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:24:07 PM EDT
[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
This is just supposed to be an ultra reliable, sub MOA guaranteed, medium range precision semi auto.  It is WAY lighter than a match grade M14 and the M14 offers no increase in accuracy.  Its my understanding that they will offer an accuracy gaurantee on these once they get enough barrels and upper working to ensure they all are consistant sub MOA capable with factory ammo.


i hope they can pull off even moa.


I know Lothar Walther has done extenive testing with chrome lined LW 50 steel barrels and they achieved sub MOA results, I know my plated 11.5" barrel with LW piston drive shoots sub MOA, I know the other .308 AR platforms are capable of sub MOA performance.

If this thing can ONLY do MOA I would not buy it.  I dont see that happening. I am wondering if they can get em to 1/2 MOA.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:33:15 PM EDT
[#48]

Quoted:
I already have one..its called M14.And the 14 evevn without being accurized is a very capable sniper weapon...just go back to vietnam when standard 14s were being used with ART scopes.I beleive Peter Arnett did a story on supressed M14s that were being used during that time as he called them"amazingly quiet".


If you think an M14 and an AR are the same thing, you must not shoot from anywhere but the bench.
Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:34:42 PM EDT
[#49]

Quoted:
+1, but on that line of thought, I wonder if anyone has ever tried to figure out if G3 mags could be made to work. Obviously the mag well area would have to be adjusted (unless maybe you modified the mags, which would run up cost and defeat the purpose), but I wonder if it would work better with the AR style bolt than the FAL ones do? I mean, although the G3 uses that roller locking system, and is obviously different than the AR bolt, I wonder if there would be enough clearance, etc, and if it could be made to lock up okay and all? - Note that I haven't looked at one with the thought of trying to analyze things... it's just a thought off the top of my head. I do like the idea of trying to use a cheap plentiful mag, but only if it would work properly.


Already been done.  Oberland Arms (Germany) did it with their AR10 clone, and HK did it with their first generation 417.

Here is the Oberland OA-10:

Link Posted: 10/31/2006 7:35:31 PM EDT
[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
Why would anyone buy one of those when we already have the proven FAL?



Because it will suppress MUCH better than a FAL.


I should hope that's it's more accurate than the FAL, also.


No kidding... where are the FALs that shoot sub MOA and have great triggers?  Oh yeah... they dont exist.  

I am not interested in the HK 417 at ALL due to current mounting restrictions.  You simply cannot have a QD optic at the right height.  If it was released they will probably make mounts at the right height but they dont exist now it also has limitations on objective size the other AR platforms dont have.


I would have thoughbt there would be MUCH more interest than this... and all the talk of using FAL mags is kind of sickening.  Show me the AR rifle that is reliable and uses FAL mags...  It requires SHORT bolt lugs and that just seems like its asking for problems.  Id rather have a rifle that works.


Have you shot a FAL that has been retro fitted by E Vandenberg?  I might consider it, but this platform will be overpriced!  

Ant
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