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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 3/12/2006 9:04:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/12/2006 10:24:15 PM EDT by NYPatriot]
Thanks to the kindness (& chronographs) of fellow ARFCOM members Gorvibub & FALARAK, I think that we can safely say that 1980's South African surplus "battle pack" ammo is up to the challenge and can STILL be considered excellent SHTF ammo. Just take a look at their results:

Gorvibub...

Ten shot string:

1. 3167.0
2. 3160.8
3. 3170.8
4. 3187.2
5. 3157.0
6. 3165.8
7. 3182.1
8. 3172.0
9. 3184.7
10.3198.7

AVG. 3174.6
ES.41.7
SD. 13.1/0.41%
HI-3198.7
LO-3157.0

Temp: High 30's-low 40's
Chronograph distance: Aprox. 12ft.
Ammo was fired from a 20" chrome lined Mil. Spec. (5.56mm) barrel.
Ammo was manufactured in 1983.


FALARAK:

Five shot string:

1. 3301
2. 3293
3. 3284
4. 3281
5. 3305

AVG: 3292
ES. 24
HI-3305
LOW-3281

Temp: 80 degrees
Chrony distance: Aprox. 15ft.
Ammo was fired from a 20" chrome lined Mil. Spec. (5.56mm) barrel.
Ammo was manufactured in 1983.



Now before somebody points out that Gorvibub's numbers are about 100fps. slower than FALARAK's, take another look at the temperatures involved. It was about 40-45 degrees colder on the day that Gorvibub tested the ammo I sent him. FALARAK tested the ammo on an 80 degree day, which is the exact temp. for standardized military testing of 5.56mm ammo velocities.

Don't think that a 40-45 degree temp. swing can result in that much lost velocity? Think again...

www.exteriorballistics.com/ebexplained/4th/56.cfm


For typical hunting scenarios like those in the examples above, changes of 50 degrees F or so between the shooting range where the rifle or handgun is sighted in an the hunting location should not be the sole cause of misses, unless the hunter fires at game which is a very long distance away. It is not impossible, however, to have a change in temperature of 100 degrees F between the shooting range and the hunting territory here in North America. If you live in any of the southern, southeastern, or southwestern states, it would not be unusual to sight your rifle or handgun at a shooting range where the temperature is around 100 degrees F. Then if you hunt in Alaska, Canada, or the northern continental U.S., you can encounter weather conditions with temperatures near 0 degrees F. The decrease in muzzle velocity caused by the 100 degree F decrease in temperature would approach 200 fps for rifles and 100 fps for handguns, with the loads listed in Tables 5.6-1 , Tables 5.6-2 , Tables 5.6-3 and Tables 5.6-4 . The changes in drop then become considerably more important.


Thus, an aprox. 50 degree decrease would result in a drop of about 100fps., which brings Gorvibub's results right into line with FALARAK's!






Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:26:05 PM EDT
I wish I had stored mine and not used it as range/plinking ammo! Figures...


TS
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:38:20 PM EDT
Good results, thanks for posting..

nice to know that my self made battle packs of M193 & 3131A are good to go for many years to come...
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:40:32 PM EDT
I'm not surprised.

I routinely shoot 50-60 year old surplus, and have found that good ammo, stored well, shoots just as well as what I made that day on the reloading press.

I've got some 90 year old .303 that still goes bang, just like it was meant to.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:47:42 PM EDT
That's very impressive. Makes me wonder how long my XM193 and M855 and Q3131A will last since I always stashed it on clips, in cardboards and in bandos in sealed ammo cans with desiccant as I aquired it. After reading this post I am thinking my grand children will be shooting this stuff, nevermind my children, and I don't even have grand kids yet.
Thanks for the info.
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 9:47:47 PM EDT

Originally Posted By V-Rod:
Good results, thanks for posting..

nice to know that my self made battle packs of M193 & 3131A are good to go for many years to come...



And let's not forget to thank Gorvibub & FALARAK for volunteering their time & services.

Thanks much guys!!!
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:48:58 PM EDT
Thanks to GORVIBUB AND FALARAK for the crono reports.
I have some '85 M1A3, '89 M1A3, and '89 M1A4 that I cronographed about a year ago with the results being very similar to yours. I fired them from Bushmaster 1/9 and Colt 1/7 16 inch barrels. I would love to find more of this stuff! Billy
Link Posted: 3/12/2006 11:52:06 PM EDT
i saved 10 rounds of the ammo to test on a warmer day to see what the actual change in velocity will be, i will IM the results to NYpatriot so he can update his post if he chooses. i also fired some Win Q3131A for comparison on the same day. all conditions were the same and the same gun was used.

Win Q3131A
lot TK71 2002

1. 3078.1
2. 3078.1
3. 3074.5
4. 3092.3
5. 3076.9
6. 3097.1
7. 3085.2
8. 3075.7
9. 3065.1
10 3103.1

AV. 3082.6
ES. 38.0
SD. 11.6-0.37%
HI. 3103
LO. 3065.1

wish i would of bought alot of the SA ammo when it was available but i was just getting into reloading and thought i would never buy loaded ammo again.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 4:34:10 AM EDT

Originally Posted By gorvibub:
i saved 10 rounds of the ammo to test on a warmer day to see what the actual change in velocity will be, i will IM the results to NYpatriot so he can update his post if he chooses. i also fired some Win Q3131A for comparison on the same day. all conditions were the same and the same gun was used.

Win Q3131A
lot TK71 2002

1. 3078.1
2. 3078.1
3. 3074.5
4. 3092.3
5. 3076.9
6. 3097.1
7. 3085.2
8. 3075.7
9. 3065.1
10 3103.1

AV. 3082.6
ES. 38.0
SD. 11.6-0.37%
HI. 3103
LO. 3065.1

wish i would of bought alot of the SA ammo when it was available but i was just getting into reloading and thought i would never buy loaded ammo again.




Those are the famous first words out of a new guy to reloading, said the same thing when I started to reload 16 years ago.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 5:46:01 AM EDT
There is more to ammo than the velocity stats you mentioned. I have been using SA for classes and training for years now but I would prefer LC or Q3131A for SHTF. The brass seems to be softer - I have had several instances where extractor tore the rim off a SA case and this has never happened with LC or Q3131A. The only way to clear this is to go dig up a cleaning rod and knock the case out of the chamber. Not a big deal at the range but not something I want to do in a SHTF situation. I have also found that the SA ammo leaves behind more carbon in my AR than LC or Q3131A. I have been to classes where I went through 1000 rounds in 2 or 3 days and I found that the SA left behind a lot more carbon than a comparable amount of LC or Q3131A. Again not a big deal when it's just a couple of days at the range but not good in a SHTF situation. Keep in mind that SA ammo was developed for a Galil type rifle with a closed gas system (op rod) and these systems can use dirtier ammo. Anyway my .02, of course YMMV...
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 6:04:24 AM EDT

Originally Posted By JackMcC:
There is more to ammo than the velocity stats you mentioned. I have been using SA for classes and training for years now but I would prefer LC or Q3131A for SHTF. The brass seems to be softer - I have had several instances where extractor tore the rim off a SA case and this has never happened with LC or Q3131A. The only way to clear this is to go dig up a cleaning rod and knock the case out of the chamber. Not a big deal at the range but not something I want to do in a SHTF situation. I have also found that the SA ammo leaves behind more carbon in my AR than LC or Q3131A. I have been to classes where I went through 1000 rounds in 2 or 3 days and I found that the SA left behind a lot more carbon than a comparable amount of LC or Q3131A. Again not a big deal when it's just a couple of days at the range but not good in a SHTF situation. Keep in mind that SA ammo was developed for a Galil type rifle with a closed gas system (op rod) and these systems can use dirtier ammo. Anyway my .02, of course YMMV...



SA has flash retardant in the powder, whereas I don't believe Q3131a does. SA = no flash and Q3131a = large flash zombies can see.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 9:15:39 AM EDT
LOVED THE SA/M193!!

I kept back some old surplus 1993 that shot like Match Grade BTHP!

It shoots just fine after 5 more years of storage.

I will spare you the manu.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 1:39:03 PM EDT
I have 3600 rounds of this stuff packed away as SHTF ammo. Glad to see that it still is pretty much right up to spec. It shoots very well in my guns and I picked up 1200 more rounds a few weeks ago that popped up. All of mine is dated 1986 and I've never had a problem EVER with it.

Heard that the brass was soft but I've never had a rim torn off yet in any of my ARs.
I'd have bought another 15K If I knew then what I know now. At $35-$40 bucks a BP, it was cheap excellent ammo. If I find it priced right I buy it immediately.
Link Posted: 3/13/2006 7:37:48 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/13/2006 7:38:24 PM EDT by NYPatriot]

Originally Posted By gorvibub:
i saved 10 rounds of the ammo to test on a warmer day to see what the actual change in velocity will be, i will IM the results to NYpatriot so he can update his post if he chooses. i also fired some Win Q3131A for comparison on the same day. all conditions were the same and the same gun was used.

Win Q3131A
lot TK71 2002

1. 3078.1
2. 3078.1
3. 3074.5
4. 3092.3
5. 3076.9
6. 3097.1
7. 3085.2
8. 3075.7
9. 3065.1
10 3103.1

AV. 3082.6
ES. 38.0
SD. 11.6-0.37%
HI. 3103
LO. 3065.1

wish i would of bought alot of the SA ammo when it was available but i was just getting into reloading and thought i would never buy loaded ammo again.



Sounds like a plan gorvibub. Chrono those remaining rounds on a warmer day & post the results in this thread!

Thanks again,

NYP
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 10:44:48 AM EDT
Is $49.95 + tax a good price for an '86 battle pack?
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 10:58:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By GeorgeW2004:
Is $49.95 + tax a good price for an '86 battle pack?



Not to bad. I'd pay that in a heartbeat. $200 per 1200 rounds is very reasonable for very good ammo.
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 2:57:30 PM EDT
Reassuring info. I was worried cuz I think I still have two full tubs buried under a mountain of Wolf Poly, UAE, Malaysian, and PD.

Guess I can leave it there almost indefinitely.

Sam
Link Posted: 4/1/2006 4:53:39 PM EDT
Ammunition will stay "Good" for a long long long long time. Just store it in airtight ammo cans. Shit , I have shot 38 special ammunition that my father stored in his closet over 30 years ago. It was fine.
Link Posted: 4/3/2006 2:33:38 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Grumple:
Ammunition will stay "Good" for a long long long long time. Just store it in airtight ammo cans. Shit , I have shot 38 special ammunition that my father stored in his closet over 30 years ago. It was fine.




hey grumple whats up with the new south african 5.56mm ammo coming in that you are talking about?? april fools or are you smoking crack??

ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=276074
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