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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 8/8/2005 7:27:35 PM EDT
Would I get laughed out of class if i showed up with a case or two of Wolf? It runs well in my AR, and I've become somewhat of a brass whore......I'd hate to leave 1000+ LC casing laying around after class.

Thoughts?...I don't wanna be a ghetto operator
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:55:54 PM EDT
depend on the class
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 7:56:50 PM EDT
That's helpful........please elaborate.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:30:10 PM EDT
I'm not a

I'm serious.........really.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:35:32 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ecgRN:
Would I get laughed out of class if i showed up with a case or two of Wolf? It runs well in my AR, and I've become somewhat of a brass whore......I'd hate to leave 1000+ LC casing laying around after class.

Thoughts?...I don't wanna be a ghetto operator



It sounds like you already made up your mind based on what people (who you will likely meet once and never see again) might think of you. I have never attended a CC before, but I would make everything count with it. That means my SHTF ammo AND my best mags. You spend lots of money on those things and time is limited there, so make the most out of it and use what you would equip yourself when it would count.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 8:41:40 PM EDT

That means my SHTF ammo AND my best mags. You spend lots of money on those things and time is limited there, so make the most out of it and use what you would equip yourself when it would count.

'
I don't give a rip what others think...but I see your point. THAT'S the kind of feed back I was looking for. Thank you Sir.
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 10:52:14 PM EDT
why don't you ask the instructor?
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:21:33 PM EDT
Haven't nailed a class down yet. Just getting intel, I will ask when I know who......
Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:30:16 PM EDT
Many classes recommend steel cases only in weapons designed for steel and discourage steel in the AR. There is also a tendency to discourage reloads except such as Black Hills Blue Box or equivalent. The instructors may not say anything if you show up with other than what's recommended but they will notice.

I get the best mileage by following the recommendations from the git go; that's why I empty my cup and take the class. Good Luck.

Rick

Link Posted: 8/8/2005 11:37:15 PM EDT
XM it is then...

Thanks all.

out.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 12:58:00 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 12:58:33 AM EDT by metroplex]
If your AR is running fine with Wolf, use Wolf. There's no need to waste money on XM193 for a class.
Find a range where you can fire rapidly (before the class) and do "drills" with Wolf. If your rifle runs 100%, use Wolf at the class so long as they allow it. Wolf isn't going to be match grade stuff though, expect about 4-5 MOA.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 1:05:51 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 1:08:20 AM EDT by ecgRN]


Decisions...decisions........


Always has run 100% with Wolf...all I want is MOT "minute of torso".....hmmmm

I'll see where this goes in the morning.

Over and really out....
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 2:58:36 AM EDT
If you run in to problems, the rest of the class will HATE you. You will be responsible for slowing the class down and wasting peoples time and money. I'd like to elminate any problems and run a quality brass round.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:24:36 AM EDT
I wouldn't hesitate to use wolf in my gun for most classes.
....Most malfunctions I've seen folks have with the AR are magazine related, next weapon related (often due to maintenance), rather than ammo related. My $0.02.
Hotgun
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:32:35 AM EDT
Assuming, it won't piss the instructor off, the worst thing that can happen is some unplanned failure drills during the course.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:17:02 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 5:19:37 AM EDT by Will]
I have had the good fortune to attend a number of firearms courses at Gunsite, Thunder Ranch and with traveling trainers like Gabe Suarez, John Farnham, Louis Awerbuck etc..... The big thing is not to slow everyone down. If your gun runs good with it then fine. If you have any trouble you will be the A-Hole that is wasting everyone's time, the other students, the instructor etc....... So, if your gun is truly reliable with it, no problem. If you have problems that are ammo related you will not be a popular guy. Even if the problems are not directly ammo related it may be attributed to it by others.

My personal opinion is that if I'm spending $1,000 for a class the ammo is a pretty small part of the equation. Your talking hotel, car rental, maybe plane tickets, some new gear, meals, course tuition.....I would rather stay at the Econo Lodge or eat at Denny's than shoot ammo that might be a problem.

You won't be leaving the cases on the ground. Every range I have been on has had a brass call. Sometimes twice a day depending on the facility. You will be picking up even the steel Wolf cases, they don't want their ranges looking like a trash can. Even if you did leave a thousand .223 on the deck your talking $20. The only good thing to come out of the current ammo shortage is that the police agencies etc...are producing tons of once fired brass and man is it cheap!
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:46:13 AM EDT
Echoing what the others said, if it runs in your gun(s) 100%, then it won't be an issue for anyone else, as you won't be inconveniencing the class with lots of avoidable malfunctions.

You may also wish to check with the instructor as to what kind of shooting you will be doing. "Minute of torso" may be a bit disappointing to you in some cases. A class I did last week had some shooting at some small steel targets from Larue, offhand at 100 yards. If your ammo won't hold groups small enough to hit ... you won't be happy.

On the other hand, some people's guns are very accurate with Wolf, so again it's a non-issue.

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:05:02 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:23:36 AM EDT
I've run wolf in two carbine courses, and Death451 runs it like some folks run XM193. Never had a problem with wolf in a carbine class. If yer gun functions with it run it. If you have any problems with it, don't run it. My gun loves wolf like a fat kid loves cake. So I have no issues with running it. Run what works, not whats easiest on the pocket book, sometimes they can be one in the same, sometimes not.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:37:04 AM EDT
That's something important that I had overlooked, glad someone else caught it. I don't know how much shooting you normally do at the range but a class is very intense and compressed. You will do many repetitions and shoot alot. Typical carbine class will run 1,000-1500 rounds in three days. You will find out real quickly if you have a bad mag, bad extractor etc....your gear will take a pounding. What may be fine for 100 rounds a week may not do so well at 500 rounds a day.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:30:39 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
There's no need to waste money on XM193 for a class.


Unless you find Wolf doesn't have the accuracy you need for the class..

I've been to a FIRE class where one student showed up with Wolf. Over 3 days he had a few issues (5 or 6 IIRC with his 0lympic Arms carbine. Problem Ammo? Problem Carbine? Or some combination?

Wolf runs find in my carbines, but accuracy with it sucks for lack of a better term. Not a problem up close, but at 50y it's iffy as to weather I can keep it in the 4x2" ocular box. Wolf also has alot of flash at night - so if there is a night portion to the class I can think of better ammo to bring (like Black Hills 55gr FMJ Blue Box).

Pat Rogers had some negative comments on Wolf in an AAR of one of his recent classes. His comments:

After reviewing this class, i am more convinced that Wolf ammunition is at best marginal, and strongly believe that it has no place at my courses (the same is true for Olympic).
I have had nothing but negative issues watching people go through with it. ....



I would not bring Wolf to a 'high intensity' class (like a Pat Rogers class) or any carbine course where they will be shooting over 50 yards. For a basic course (providing you clean the weapon every night) I could see using Wolf.

BTW forget the cases on the ground - wait till you start dropping LIVE ROUNDS on the ground and you have to ignore them. If they are on the ground - they belong to the instructor.

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:35:30 AM EDT

Originally Posted By metroplex:
If your AR is running fine with Wolf, use Wolf. There's no need to waste money on XM193 for a class.
Find a range where you can fire rapidly (before the class) and do "drills" with Wolf. If your rifle runs 100%, use Wolf at the class so long as they allow it. Wolf isn't going to be match grade stuff though, expect about 4-5 MOA.



XM193 isn't that much more money than Wolf on the scheme of things. However, if the savings is so great that your decision to feed the children is based on ammo choice, then a rifle class probably is out of your league.

I would use boxed XM193 or other brass, TAP, top rated commercial rounds, etc. but that is just me. Me, who shoots Wolf through my match barrel, just to make the Wolf haters wet the bed.....
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 8:47:15 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:20:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 9:21:56 AM EDT by photoman]

Originally Posted By Forest:
I would not bring Wolf to a 'high intensity' class (like a Pat Rogers class) or any carbine course where they will be shooting over 50 yards. For a basic course (providing you clean the weapon every night) I could see using Wolf.





I had no problem hitting a 2/3 size IDPA steel target at 300 yards with wolf, durring either of my carbine classes. As for the head shot stuff(yah I know I left it out of the quoted text), well real life and square ranges are two different things, I don't care what ya use in real life, a moving head at 50 yards or more is a shit target to shoot at. Thats one of those things I have taken away from classes.......

On tha square range a 4x2 brain box yer right it might be touchy depending on the shooters skill level, but at 50 yards wolf ammo should be able to do it with a decent trigger puller behind the gun.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 9:58:15 AM EDT

Originally Posted By photoman:
On tha square range a 4x2 brain box yer right it might be touchy depending on the shooters skill level, but at 50 yards wolf ammo should be able to do it with a decent trigger puller behind the gun.



Not with my rifles. Reference the thread 2-3 weeks ago on Wolf where Fight4YourRights and I mention our outing. At 50y I was shooting 5-6" groups with the Wolf. Switched to Q3131A and the groups magically dropped to the 2" range, and they got smaller when I went for the Black Hills match ammo.

Wolf is marginal, if your rifle shoots decent groups with it - then great! Of course it might be you got ammo from a good lot and I got ammo from a bad lot. All that it shows me is Wolf lacks the consistancy to do what is required.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:40:28 AM EDT
How does that saying go?...."train like you fight, so you'll fight like you've trained."

I'll leave the Wolf for plinking, buckle down and get some XM for class work.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 10:51:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 10:55:17 AM EDT by fight4yourrights]

Originally Posted By ecgRN:

I've become somewhat of a brass whore......I'd hate to leave 1000+ LC casing laying around after class.




That will get you KILLED in the real world.


Like our carbine instructor says, "It just looks like gold folks, it ain't"

Like Forest said, most everyone fights that urge to be picking up LIVE rounds, let alone empties.


In the days of revolvers, wanna guess how many cops died with a set of empties in their pocket?


Train like you fight, fight like you train.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 11:35:04 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Forest:

Originally Posted By photoman:
On tha square range a 4x2 brain box yer right it might be touchy depending on the shooters skill level, but at 50 yards wolf ammo should be able to do it with a decent trigger puller behind the gun.



Not with my rifles. Reference the thread 2-3 weeks ago on Wolf where Fight4YourRights and I mention our outing. At 50y I was shooting 5-6" groups with the Wolf. Switched to Q3131A and the groups magically dropped to the 2" range, and they got smaller when I went for the Black Hills match ammo.

Wolf is marginal, if your rifle shoots decent groups with it - then great! Of course it might be you got ammo from a good lot and I got ammo from a bad lot. All that it shows me is Wolf lacks the consistancy to do what is required.



I've never seen it do 5-6 inches at 50 yards When I start seeing that I'll switch up my ammo that I blast/plink with.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:20:05 PM EDT

That will get you KILLED in the real world.


In no way was I infering that I would pick up brass in a firefight/hostile environment!

I ain't no "Uber-operator", but I ain't STUPID.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:26:58 PM EDT
good thread. got me thinking about a few things.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:52:50 PM EDT
The only time you should catch any flack with Wolf ammo is if your rifle keeps going down or you can't hit with it.
(Or in the rare case of an employee from a competing company giving you a rash of shit for every minor hiccup)

Wolf isn't usually an issue if your rifle runs with it.
I posted a ballistic study using Wolf, Federal and LC... it is in this forum someplace.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 4:57:38 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ecgRN:

That will get you KILLED in the real world.


In no way was I infering that I would pick up brass in a firefight/hostile environment!

I ain't no "Uber-operator", but I ain't STUPID.



You'd be amazed at the instincts.


You fight like you train.


Cops used to be trained to pocket the revolver brass. They would find them on the street, dead, with brass in the pockets.


Why did they dick around pocketing brass in a fight? Because that's HOW THEY TRAINED
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:07:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 5:08:19 PM EDT by ecgRN]

Cops used to be trained to pocket the revolver brass. They would find them on the street, dead, with brass in the pockets.
Why did they dick around pocketing brass in a fight? Because that's HOW THEY TRAINED





I meant picking up brass at the end of the day, when everyone was sitting around chewin' the fat. Not during a live fire drill or..... never mind.... most everyone else knew what I meant, I'm not gonna argue with you. Jeez...

Link Posted: 8/9/2005 5:12:11 PM EDT

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By ecgRN:

That will get you KILLED in the real world.


In no way was I infering that I would pick up brass in a firefight/hostile environment!

I ain't no "Uber-operator", but I ain't STUPID.



You'd be amazed at the instincts.


You fight like you train.


Cops used to be trained to pocket the revolver brass. They would find them on the street, dead, with brass in the pockets.


Why did they dick around pocketing brass in a fight? Because that's HOW THEY TRAINED



You WILL default to your level of training. F4 is correct. Ammo is not worth gettting a BGs round in the ear..

Ops
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:12:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/9/2005 6:16:53 PM EDT by ecgRN]

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:
Originally Posted By ecgRN:
That will get you KILLED in the real world.


In no way was I infering that I would pick up brass in a firefight/hostile environment!

I ain't no "Uber-operator", but I ain't STUPID.


You'd be amazed at the instincts.


You fight like you train.


Cops used to be trained to pocket the revolver brass. They would find them on the street, dead, with brass in the pockets.


Why did they dick around pocketing brass in a fight? Because that's HOW THEY TRAINED


You WILL default to your level of training. F4 is correct. Ammo is not worth gettting a BGs round in the ear..

Ops



YOU BOTH HAVE COMPLETLY MISSED MY POINT!!!



Someone help me out here.........Someone HAS to clean up the range AFTER class. If the instructors keep it for whatever reason, fine. I can see why they don't want the range littered with steel, and thus they frown on Wolf. But why not recover some good brass for reloading? You paid a premium price for it to begin with.

I think I'm done here....Where did I put that Special Olymics entry form anyway?....
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:31:43 PM EDT

Originally Posted By ecgRN:
Someone help me out here.........Someone HAS to clean up the range AFTER class. If the instructors keep it for whatever reason, fine....



No nobody has to clean up the range - unless it's a rule if your there.

But in any event I don't see the point. In a typical class you will be moving around - ALOT.

You brass could be spread over 5000 (yes thousand) square yards - not counting if the course has a simulator session. People will be stepping on it (crushing it) and it will get mixed with other peoples's brass. Your once fired Lake City WILL get mixed with Joe Blow's 'reloaded 5 times' Lake City brass.

Just let it go.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:40:49 PM EDT
Good point Forest...I never thought of that...duh.

Anyway, I don't want to be found dead with pockets full of 5.56 brass at Gunsite. I'll leave it be and let it go.
Link Posted: 8/9/2005 6:53:21 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 12:37:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 1:22:55 AM EDT
Link Posted: 8/10/2005 3:20:58 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/10/2005 3:22:12 AM EDT by metroplex]

Originally Posted By Ops:

Originally Posted By fight4yourrights:

Originally Posted By ecgRN:

That will get you KILLED in the real world.


In no way was I infering that I would pick up brass in a firefight/hostile environment!

I ain't no "Uber-operator", but I ain't STUPID.



You'd be amazed at the instincts.


You fight like you train.


Cops used to be trained to pocket the revolver brass. They would find them on the street, dead, with brass in the pockets.


Why did they dick around pocketing brass in a fight? Because that's HOW THEY TRAINED



You WILL default to your level of training. F4 is correct. Ammo is not worth gettting a BGs round in the ear..

Ops



Geeze Louise... He's saying that he doesn't pick up brass while shooting or in a firefight. It's when you cease fire and change targets when he goes to pick up the brass.

Since everyone here is an uber tactical street fighter, think of it like this: after you get done killing the bad guys and backup arrives, he goes to pick up the brass.

Personally I don't pick it up. I shoot steel cased stuff because it's cheaper than reloading. I have the good stuff for SHTF. I don't waste time with matches or competitions.
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