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Posted: 7/7/2005 1:44:59 AM EDT
Was thinking of picking up some 308 ammo for blasting and range practice drills. Extreme accuracy is not required, I have other ammo for any serious or semi serious needs. With surplus 308 prices going up, I was wondering if anyone has tried the Wolf 308 in any of the popular battle rifles (HK91, FAL, AR10/BAR10/LR308, M1A)? Can anyone see any reason not to try it out? I have tried most of the different 308 surplus out there, and I can't imagine the Wolf being any worse than some of the surplus that is out there (CAVIM comes to mind...)
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 7:04:28 AM EDT
With wolf's rep for accuracy/dirtyness/problems with cases sealant, ect. Why would anyone even think of paying what they want for 308 wolf? Buy some good surplus.

Let me ask you this. If you could get XM193 or Q3131a loads for the same price as wolf 223, would you pick the wolf over the other 223 ammo?

You are basically asking the same question here with the wolf 308 v any of the known good surplus ammo. Hell, I would rather buy indian then wolf in 308!

I do shoot wolf....in my AK and SKS's.
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 2:37:43 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 6:38:07 PM EDT
You gots that right, Ikor!

Indian???? No wonder Pakistan and India have been fighting for 50 years at their border----the damnable Indian ammo is just awful! The Punjabis couldn't hit the Peshwaris.

Or, was it the other way around??
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 7:23:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By colt100:
With wolf's rep for accuracy/dirtyness/problems with cases sealant, ect. Why would anyone even think of paying what they want for 308 wolf? Buy some good surplus.

Let me ask you this. If you could get XM193 or Q3131a loads for the same price as wolf 223, would you pick the wolf over the other 223 ammo?

You are basically asking the same question here with the wolf 308 v any of the known good surplus ammo. Hell, I would rather buy indian then wolf in 308!

I do shoot wolf....in my AK and SKS's.




I love these guys! Where do they come from?
Link Posted: 7/7/2005 7:34:01 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/7/2005 7:34:44 PM EDT by Gunbert]

Originally Posted By colt100:
With wolf's rep for accuracy/dirtyness/problems with cases sealant, ect. Why would anyone even think of paying what they want for 308 wolf? Buy some good surplus.



Funny, if you read a bit around here, instead of passing on the BS that your gunshow buddy the ex SEAL turned jerky-vendor told you, you'd find that more people have far more problems with surplus (especially XM193PD) than with Wolf.



Let me ask you this. If you could get XM193 or Q3131a loads for the same price as wolf 223, would you pick the wolf over the other 223 ammo?


Since we're asking stupid questions, if you could buy a corvette for the same price as a cavalier, would you? DUH. But you CAN'T, so good luck with that comparison.


You are basically asking the same question here with the wolf 308 v any of the known good surplus ammo. Hell, I would rather buy indian then wolf in 308!


You obviously haven't shot any of the .308, and are talking out your ass if you think the indian stuff is better. Those yahoos consider it a success if the bullet goes in the case ass first. I've shot indian, and if you don't mind a 10% weed out rate, then have at it.


I do shoot wolf....in my AK and SKS's.



You'll forgive me if I don't follow your logic... wolf is shit, yet you shoot it? That's hippie logic there, my friend.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 6:00:46 AM EDT
I've shot both the wolf and Indian in a ar 10 and didn't have any problems
with either, but if I had to choose between the two it would be the wolf,
but fwiw, I've been shooting nothing but SA lately.
Link Posted: 7/8/2005 6:29:45 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunbert:

Originally Posted By colt100:
With wolf's rep for accuracy/dirtyness/problems with cases sealant, ect. Why would anyone even think of paying what they want for 308 wolf? Buy some good surplus.



Funny, if you read a bit around here, instead of passing on the BS that your gunshow buddy the ex SEAL turned jerky-vendor told you, you'd find that more people have far more problems with surplus (especially XM193PD) than with Wolf.

Well maybe if YOU read around, you'll find PLEANTY of people who have had problems with Wolf in 223 and some of the other calibers, including problems with the sealant getting all over everything, split case necks on firing, ect. Wolf Isn't known for accuracy and is said/believed to be dirty so what are you getting at here??



Let me ask you this. If you could get XM193 or Q3131a loads for the same price as wolf 223, would you pick the wolf over the other 223 ammo?


Since we're asking stupid questions, if you could buy a corvette for the same price as a cavalier, would you? DUH. But you CAN'T, so good luck with that comparison.

Ok asshat, you telling me that you can't buy quality surplus for the price of 308 wolf??


You are basically asking the same question here with the wolf 308 v any of the known good surplus ammo. Hell, I would rather buy indian then wolf in 308!


You obviously haven't shot any of the .308, and are talking out your ass if you think the indian stuff is better. Those yahoos consider it a success if the bullet goes in the case ass first. I've shot indian, and if you don't mind a 10% weed out rate, then have at it.

That was supposed to be a joke. Guess you didn't get it


I do shoot wolf....in my AK and SKS's.



You'll forgive me if I don't follow your logic... wolf is shit, yet you shoot it? That's hippie logic there, my friend.

Why? Many people refuse to shoot Wolf out of american weapons but do so in Russian weapons. I have not had problems with wolf in 7.62x39. My Ak's and SKS are just plinking rifles at best as they are not that accurate compared to other rifles so I shoot cheap ammo in them when I feel like blowing off a few rounds. IF this is what he wants to do, than he can have at it.

Link Posted: 7/8/2005 7:07:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/8/2005 7:12:09 PM EDT by Gunbert]
Ok. I'll make this simple.


Post a thread from this site, any thread, that shows wolf causing a problem that wasn't later found to be something else. I want proof of these 'split case necks' you speak of. Please. I've been looking for them for some time now, and have yet to find one. I've heard about sealant issues with match chambered guns, but since they no longer use the red sealant on the case neck, that isn't an issue.



And you posted:

Let me ask you this. If you could get XM193 or Q3131a loads for the same price as wolf 223, would you pick the wolf over the other 223 ammo?


so I replied:


Since we're asking stupid questions, if you could buy a corvette for the same price as a cavalier, would you? DUH. But you CAN'T, so good luck with that comparison.


I said that because it isn't a fair comparison; wolf isn't in the same class as XM193 or Q3131a or some of the IMI or British surplus. But likewise, good surplus costs near double what wolf does. Hence the corvette to cavalier comparison - everyone would take good surplus over wolf if the prices were the same, BUT THEY AREN'T. Really, it isn't that hard to understand. But perhaps it is, because you then replied with this gem:


Ok asshat, you telling me that you can't buy quality surplus for the price of 308 wolf??


So first we're talking about .223 prices (caliber brought up by you, not me), then you ask about .308 surplus? I'm trying to follow you but it's hard... if you originally meant to compare .308 prices then yes, you'd be right that wolf is on par current surplus prices, if not a little more expensive. But the last really good surplus .308 I saw was Portugese, and that stuff has really dried up... prices have gone to around $200 a case, and I can get wolf .308 15-25% cheaper, for brand new made-this-year ammo.



You badmouth a product you know nothing about because of some fictitious stories you heard around the beanie baby hut at the last funshow, and this is what pisses me off. You'd turn a newbie around in a heartbeat, acting like you know what you're talking about when you really don't.

Let me give you some real world experience with wolf ammo. I own two different machineguns, an M16 and a M11. I have shot beyond 20,000 rounds of .223 wolf, and at least 5000 rounds of 9mm wolf with not one failure that I can attribute to the ammo. Also another 500 rounds of .308 wolf (so new I haven't seen much at the shows) through my FAL, again no failures.

Not a one.

And of all that .223, I've only ever found one round that had a factory defect (primer seated crooked) which gives Wolf a defect failure rate of .0001% Try that with some of the 'better' surplus out there, like Xm193PD.

Here's a link to peruse;

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=238962



All in all, the guy wanted experience with wolf .308 ammo, and you just put down a company that has a damn good product for the money. Try it sometime, you might be surprised.


Link Posted: 7/8/2005 7:12:14 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 4:27:36 AM EDT

Originally Posted By VA-gunnut:
I haven't tried the .308 from Wolf do to the price of it. If they could get the price down to a more reasonable level, I would shoot it in this caliber too.




AMMUNITION STORE.COM Has Wolf .308 ammo for $139.00 per case if you purchase 2 or more cases.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 6:37:37 AM EDT
I bought 250 rnds of it for my Vepr and it worked just fine.it's all my Vepr has ever fired.
I bought some Indian ammo at a gun show and am too chicken to shoot it.
It's still wrapped up on my shelf.
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 8:20:16 AM EDT
I tried silver bear in my cetme, it was fairly inaccurate...
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 8:42:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/9/2005 8:43:29 AM EDT by garr]
I fired a couple of hundred rounds out of a .308 Saiga, 3-4 inch groups with a scope, Went bang every time, Smelled bad (That Wolf Ammonia smell).

PS: I would not fire Indian .308 out of anything I own!!
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 10:28:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 2:16:55 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
Ok. I'll make this simple.


I want proof of these 'split case necks' you speak of. Please. I've been looking for them for some time now, and have yet to find one.





I will post a picture of a Wolf casing with a split case neck I got when firing my M16. I will also note that I do not have a problem shooting Wolf. This last lot of .223 Wolf ammunition has had at least a dozen split case necks. Wolf sent me UPS call tags and is going to replace my remaining ammunition. Great customer service!

Proof:

Proof:

Proof:
Link Posted: 7/9/2005 7:35:16 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
Ok. I'll make this simple.


Post a thread from this site, any thread, that shows wolf causing a problem that wasn't later found to be something else. I want proof of these 'split case necks' you speak of. Please. I've been looking for them for some time now, and have yet to find one. I've heard about sealant issues with match chambered guns, but since they no longer use the red sealant on the case neck, that isn't an issue.

I don't know how to make links hot but do a search on here for the last 30 days and here's titals I have found:

Short stroking with 55 gr JHP Wolf, what are chances with 62 gr FMJ wolf?
Wolf polymer headspace problems
209 responses (66.0% / 6.7% / 27.3%) WOLF (Lacquer coating) (from ammo polltacked at top)

I don;t know if all of these threads are just ammo related but these are just from the last 30 days. I'm too lazy to go to different web sites just to argue with you.

I have shot 1000 rds of wolf 223. I had MANY neck splits out of a bushmaster. I still have the bushmaster and it has NEVER split any necks expect for the wolf. I figure I have 10000 to 15000 rds through it. The wolf was the first 1000.

I don;t have proof anymore but someone did post you proof. And on a side note, Wolf is listed #19 out of 20 on the ammo reviews taken from this site. That is because 27% of people who responded said that they had problems with it that would preclude them from using it. That's a lot of people.



And you posted:

Let me ask you this. If you could get XM193 or Q3131a loads for the same price as wolf 223, would you pick the wolf over the other 223 ammo?


so I replied:


Since we're asking stupid questions, if you could buy a corvette for the same price as a cavalier, would you? DUH. But you CAN'T, so good luck with that comparison.


I said that because it isn't a fair comparison; wolf isn't in the same class as XM193 or Q3131a or some of the IMI or British surplus. But likewise, good surplus costs near double what wolf does. Hence the corvette to cavalier comparison - everyone would take good surplus over wolf if the prices were the same, BUT THEY AREN'T. Really, it isn't that hard to understand. But perhaps it is, because you then replied with this gem:


Ok asshat, you telling me that you can't buy quality surplus for the price of 308 wolf??


So first we're talking about .223 prices (caliber brought up by you, not me), then you ask about .308 surplus? I'm trying to follow you but it's hard... if you originally meant to compare .308 prices then yes, you'd be right that wolf is on par current surplus prices, if not a little more expensive. But the last really good surplus .308 I saw was Portugese, and that stuff has really dried up... prices have gone to around $200 a case, and I can get wolf .308 15-25% cheaper, for brand new made-this-year ammo.

I brought up the issue of the 223 because that's what most people here compare. It took you a bit to get my intent of this. Good surplus or commericial ammo is not in a class with Wolf. You said so yourself. That was my point. The 308 wolf is currently comparable with good quality 308 surplus so why pay the same for ammo who's rep is said to be subpar? That was my point and it was to get the poster thinking about what he wanted to buy. That's why I used the 223 comparsion to try and make my point a bit clearer.





You badmouth a product you know nothing about because of some fictitious stories you heard around the beanie baby hut at the last funshow, and this is what pisses me off. You'd turn a newbie around in a heartbeat, acting like you know what you're talking about when you really don't.

I do know a bit about this product. I have fired it and have had problems that precluded me using it again. As pointed out above, 27% of people polled are with me on this. They were not based on fiction but on MY experience. I did also say that I used it in 7.62x39. If you don;t agree with me, then fine, but it doesn't mean that I don't know what I'm talking about.

Let me give you some real world experience with wolf ammo. I own two different machineguns, an M16 and a M11. I have shot beyond 20,000 rounds of .223 wolf, and at least 5000 rounds of 9mm wolf with not one failure that I can attribute to the ammo. Also another 500 rounds of .308 wolf (so new I haven't seen much at the shows) through my FAL, again no failures.

Good for you. You're one of the lucky ones.

Not a one.

And of all that .223, I've only ever found one round that had a factory defect (primer seated crooked) which gives Wolf a defect failure rate of .0001% Try that with some of the 'better' surplus out there, like Xm193PD.

If you think that the PD ammo is quality, you might want to re-think about who doesn't know what they are talking about.

Here's a link to peruse;

www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=16&t=238962

I am assuming that you are trying to point out that XM193 is poor quality ammo? Yes the PD ammo is. There is no denying that. Federal XM193 boxed ammo is first rate and I would not hesitate to use it.

All in all, the guy wanted experience with wolf .308 ammo, and you just put down a company that has a damn good product for the money. Try it sometime, you might be surprised.

I have not tried the 308 nor will I ever based on MY prior eperience with Wolf in calibers other then 7.62x39. Besides, why would I buy it for the same price as surplus right now? Even if the brass cased surplus is more, I can recycle the brass or reload it. At least I pick up my brass cased ammo. I don't see anyone picking up wolf cases.

This has been my point all along. YOU have FAILED to post YOUR results with 308 wolf. Isn't that what the poster wanted? Instead, you start a flame war making comments about bennie baby stands, a gunshow buddy the ex SEAL turned jerky-vendor, and calling me a hippy.

Maybe you should have just posted your facts about the 308 in the first place, like group size compared to surplus, problems, ect...

I'm not going to keep going back and forth with you. I believe I made my points and have even had others on this forum posting picts backing up my points. I'm sorry that this turned into a pissing match. It's not what I intended. I feel like you took the first shot and I'm almost sorry I even responded. However, that still doesn't change my point of view.

Wolf makes ammo. Some good some bad. None that I would call quality ammo in terms of accuracy. In fact, there is no other brand that I can think of that has been more inaccurate for me. The neck splits I personally observed out of my personal firearm were disturbing. Some of the splits were 1/4 of the way down the case. Any ammo that does this to me would preclude me from using it.

I have expericenced the messy neck sealant all over the chamber and bolts of my firearms. That has not bothered me too much nor caused any damage or stoppages of my firearms. I will continue to use wolf in 7.62x39 because I'm not looking for accuarcy out of SKS's and AK's. Wolf works well for that. Like I said, if he wants something to just go bang, wolf might work fine for him. If he's looking for accuarcy, he would be better off sticking to higher quality ammo, that is about the same price, in my opinion.




Link Posted: 7/9/2005 9:00:01 PM EDT
I'm glad I've now seen proof of split case necks with .223 wolf. Sometimes there is so much unverified BS out there that gets regurgitated as gospel.


Like I posted above, I've had nothing but good experiences with the wolf I've shot, in .223, 7.62x39 and now .308. I would encourage anyone who hasn't shot the stuff to at least try it and formulate their own opinion. I shoot with a lot of local machinegunners, and they all run wolf to the point that seeing brass cases in .223 is a surprise when we get together. I've not heard any complaints their either.


As far as a pissing contest is concerned, I apologize for my attitude. I shouldn't have come off that way; it is counterproductive to discourse.
Link Posted: 7/10/2005 11:30:44 AM EDT
I'd still shoot the Wolf.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 7:09:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
I'm glad I've now seen proof of split case necks with .223 wolf. Sometimes there is so much unverified BS out there that gets regurgitated as gospel.


Like I posted above, I've had nothing but good experiences with the wolf I've shot, in .223, 7.62x39 and now .308. I would encourage anyone who hasn't shot the stuff to at least try it and formulate their own opinion. I shoot with a lot of local machinegunners, and they all run wolf to the point that seeing brass cases in .223 is a surprise when we get together. I've not heard any complaints their either.


As far as a pissing contest is concerned, I apologize for my attitude. I shouldn't have come off that way; it is counterproductive to discourse.



I'm glad we can still be friends. See ya on the range.
Link Posted: 7/11/2005 7:35:01 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Ohio47Woodsman:
You gots that right, Ikor!

Indian???? No wonder Pakistan and India have been fighting for 50 years at their border----the damnable Indian ammo is just awful! The Punjabis couldn't hit the Peshwaris.

Or, was it the other way around??




I am sure since you are sure their Ammo is just awful, I reckon you would not object going into the "war zone" there and have them shoot at you and not be able to piss your pants.
It would be a nice report to put in the ammo oracle if you come back.

Link Posted: 7/11/2005 8:58:55 AM EDT
I guess if people only stick to comments on the Ammo and share their experience with it, then it would be good.

Wolf Ammo has always been affordable to me and I used to only shoot the Laquer coated .45, .40 and 9mm through non-HK guns. Some people have had problems with the smell and it being very dirty in cleaning but we do not mind it. After the polymer coated came into business, my family shoots it through pretty much anything, M16's-Ar15's , Mp5's, Augs, UMP's ,G36's, USP's -In Full auto or Semi's. The .45 caused a big issue on Laquer cases in USP pistols but not now with the polymer coated cases , it functions fine even when surpressed . IT was a matter of trying it out and see if it works and whether there was anything we do not like about it. It saves mega bucks on ammo cost's and "yes" we do care enough about weapons so not to shoot anything crap though them. Some of our friends are shooting wolf poly .223 through HK23E /Minimi belt-feds with no issues.

We have lots of brass surplus for now from SA, Australia and Portugal to burn, but would like to see how well WOLF .308 works out from here. Right now there is still cheaper brass surplus .308 available to keep us going until it runs out and make Wolf an attractive alternative. Let's face it, if brass ammo is available at good prices, we would all still prefer it over other types.

The more you save in Ammo the more we get to buy to shoot.

Since, a lot of comments are based on the Indian Ammo - I agree I would not shoot it if I had to sort it since the "bad business" pratice was done on the importers by mixing the rejects by some low life business man . Push comes to shove, if the supplies get depleted like with any other ammo, I am sure we would not mind sorting and shooting the good ammo out of this. But the choice is always your's.

On my reply before this, I just feel like who are we to "Stereotype" and those type of comments hurt us in the long run around the world - It also shows our education level. Aren't we in Afganistan and Iraq fighting longer than we want even though we have superior "weapons/ammo" and are those inferior weapons and ammo not killing our own ? India is having it's terror problem like anyone else and we are having to support pakistan even though we know, most of them would not think twice about killing americans - how else will you get easy access to Afganistan.

NJ
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 2:08:07 PM EDT
I can see this caused quite a storm while I was gone. I really wasn't interested in the Wolf vs. any other ammo debate. I was just wondering if anyone had tried it out and had good results. It would be nice to have another alternative ammo supply in 308. Right now I can get Wolf 308 cheaper locally than most surplus right now. Just wondering if it was any good. As stated previously, I have and use other ammo for anything important.
Link Posted: 7/15/2005 3:56:00 PM EDT
Colt100, the data you pull regarding wolf is not entirely accurate because the laquer wolf is no longer in production. If you want to check again, check for data on POLYMER WOLF, rating is much better.

As for "I don't shoot wolf becuase it's junk", I used to have that attitude until I actually try it. It's dirtier, weak in compare to XM193, but the bottom line is it function reliably in my Bushy and Colt. I never try the laquer wolf but poly wolf works good, and when all I need to do is punch a lot of holes on paper or soda can, I don't really need anything that's shoots sub MOA and cost 4-5 time more expensive than wolf to do that for me. Wolf is good for plinking if it works in your gun. BTW, I use only 55gr FMJ up to now. Will try 62gr FMJ next because other say that is't slightly more accurate then 55 gr FMJ wolf.

As for the .308, SA surplus works good in my M1A and I still have a few battle packs of Port. surplus as reserve, so I am not in a hurry to try Wolf. Let's just say, if Wolf .308 works fine and surplus for .308 dry up to a point that whole .308 market is in the same situation we have today on the .223, I will shoot wolf to plink if it's that much cheaper, provide that wolf works reliablely in my gun.

Bottom line, I do not use wolf for anything more than just plinking, because it's cheap (at least for .223) and works in my gun. I don't mind a little extra time I have to put into clean my gun after I shoot wolf. For SHTF, I have stock up 3K XM193 for that purpose.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 7:03:26 PM EDT
I got two boxes of the 150 grain FMJ stuff and shot them through my SA Scout Rifle. All forty rounds worked fine, including the ten rounds I bumped

I found accuracy at 100 yards to be about on par with South African stuff. Overall, I was pleased with the ammo.

But as long as the current stocks of good surplus ammo remain, I'll stick with Port, SA, etc.
Link Posted: 8/1/2005 7:32:30 PM EDT
I bought some .308 Wolf to try out in my AR10. Ran just fine, but the price I paid was more than what Australian surplus cost me, so I don't see the point of buying it.

If the price has come down to 13 cents/round, then maybe I'll look into it again.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 10:25:36 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/2/2005 10:27:23 AM EDT by O-320]

Originally Posted By Gunbert:
Ok. I'll make this simple.


Post a thread from this site, any thread, that shows wolf causing a problem that wasn't later found to be something else. I want proof of these 'split case necks' you speak of. Please. I've been looking for them for some time now, and have yet to find one. I've heard about sealant issues with match chambered guns, but since they no longer use the red sealant on the case neck, that isn't an issue.





Fired from a SAR-2:



I had a smith check the chamber, and he reported that it was fine. I have had several split case necks/cases with this lot of Wolf 5.45x39.5mm FMJ ammo.

However, I still shoot Wolf ammo in other calibers.
Link Posted: 8/2/2005 9:36:04 PM EDT
I've seen split case necks in 223 wolf, but I didn't thionk too much of it. Ammo went bag, extracted, fed next round, went bang again. What's the issue with teh split necks?
As for teh Wolf 308, I haven't tried any, nor will I until either A) Good surplus that's cheaper than wolf runs out, or B) Wolf prices come down to cheaper than good surplus.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 5:28:57 AM EDT
Dang!

I can't find the ad now but I swear I saw somebody selling WOLF .308 for $62.50 per 500. That's $125.00 per thousand!

Looks like the WOLF prices are getting better in comparison to MILSURP 7.62x51. I wonder if it'll ever hit the $99 price?

Let's keep our fingers crossed!

On another note, has anybody seen the 168 BTHP load yet? I look forward to trying some of that.
Link Posted: 8/27/2005 11:04:32 AM EDT
If it ever hits $100/K, I'll buy a big pile of it, as long as I try some first.
Link Posted: 8/29/2005 11:26:35 PM EDT
Just seen 500 rounds through a 1919, no problems. All laquer coated stuff, although this guy still had laquer 223 he was shooting.
Link Posted: 8/30/2005 4:21:48 AM EDT
FWIW, I have an unfired Wolf .223 case. It is split down to the shoulder. I keep it as a reminder to check my ammo when loading it, especially junk ammo like Wolf.
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