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Posted: 2/24/2021 9:41:12 PM EST
SGammo has winchester 64gr Silvertip 223 ammo in stock so I took one for the team and bought 2 boxes of 20 at IIRC 1.65 a round, so not cheap, and more than im generally willing to pay for untested ammo, and Winchester ammo in general. (I've found the qc on winchester ammo to be atrocious). But it actually seemed interesting. It seems like a nickel jacketed deer season XP, it has the same (at least to my eye) construction as the xp bullet, with the same massive polymer tip. I've seen rather impressive results on game with that bullet and among curious about its performance in gel. It seems like there's nothing out there about this ammo, so I'd like to know if anyone here has any experience with it. I might have to gel test it myself, and was planning on an accuracy test. If  no one else has any info on it I'd happily test it myself and post results here, once I get my rifle back from the smith. At least the xp bullet has seemed to perform similar to the 77gr TMK, with maybe slightly more expansion but less fragmentation with slightly more penetration. Overall could be a good defensive round
Link Posted: 2/25/2021 7:47:22 PM EST
[#1]
Link Posted: 2/25/2021 10:49:35 PM EST
[#2]
I'll try and do a velocity test with a 14.5 and 20" barrel. I'll probably just do the gel test with the 14.5. I'll do a 10rd accuracy test with the 20" and with the 14.5, and maybe in a 16.5 inch AK cause why not lol. I'll be using organic vyse gel for the test so I'll probably only test the 14.5. I'll trying be as molon-esque in presenting my data, altho it may be a while because I'm currently away from home for a while
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 2:41:09 AM EST
[#3]
Winchester Silvertips with the black lubalox coating and light grey plastic tip are made by Nosler and perform EXTREMELY well. Not sure about any nickel-plated stuff.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 3:51:58 AM EST
[#4]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Winchester Silvertips with the black lubalox coating and light grey plastic tip are made by Nosler and perform EXTREMELY well. Not sure about any nickel-plated stuff.
View Quote

Attachment Attached File


Can confirm. Excellent bullet, produces fantastic results
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 4:10:01 AM EST
[#5]
Always wondered about these. Don’t know much about them but they look like they’d perform pretty gnarly.
Link Posted: 2/26/2021 2:52:18 PM EST
[#6]
I'm not talking about the combined technologies ballistic Silvertip, that bullet has been around for ages and has been tested, and in most cases has been demonstrated to be a terrible self defense choice. Its a 55gr ballistic tip, made for varmints like coyotes. What I'm talking about is the new (new for 2021 I believe) Silvertip defense load. Its a 64 gr bullet that appears to be the same as the deer season xp, which is likely a much better bullet for defensive purposes
Link Posted: 2/27/2021 9:40:37 PM EST
[#7]
Anything to report by by chance?
Link Posted: 2/28/2021 2:25:33 PM EST
[#8]
No, sorry. I'm currently away for work and may not be home for another month.
Link Posted: 2/28/2021 8:52:40 PM EST
[#9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
No, sorry. I'm currently away for work and may not be home for another month.
View Quote

No worries!
Link Posted: 3/4/2021 6:02:19 PM EST
[#10]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

I'll try and do a velocity test with a 14.5 and 20" barrel. I'll probably just do the gel test with the 14.5. I'll do a 10rd accuracy test with the 20" and with the 14.5, and maybe in a 16.5 inch AK cause why not lol. I'll be using organic vyse gel for the test so I'll probably only test the 14.5. I'll trying be as molon-esque in presenting my data, altho it may be a while because I'm currently away from home for a while
View Quote



I look forward to seeing your results!
Link Posted: 3/4/2021 6:05:00 PM EST
[#11]



....
Link Posted: 3/4/2021 7:26:48 PM EST
[#12]
Molon, have you done a write up, or are planning on testing for this load? It would be interesting to see your accuracy results in comparison to mine, and it is always a pleasure to rad one of your posts, you are much more formal and eloquent than I
Link Posted: 3/5/2021 8:54:24 PM EST
[#13]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

Molon . . . planning on testing for this load?

View Quote


It's on The List, but with everything I'm working on right now, it will probably be a couple of months before I get to this.

..
Link Posted: 3/22/2021 12:55:53 PM EST
[#14]
In for the report as well. Just picked up 2 boxes yesterday myself with no chance for shooting on the herizon as well.
Thnx in advance, looking forward to it.
Link Posted: 4/3/2021 6:50:21 PM EST
[#15]
Link Posted: 4/3/2021 7:14:23 PM EST
[#16]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Anyone want to speculate as to how closely related this bullet is to the Winc. 64gr Deer Season XP ?

https://winchester.com/Products/Ammunition/Rifle/Deer-Season-XP/X223DS
View Quote


The SilverTip load is nickel plated.  Everyone on the Internet knows that the instant that nickel hits the bloodstream of the target it's game over, man.  Sheesh.



Also, since the tip of the SilverTip load is not made from a composite of tungsten and polycarbonated fibers like XM875 the SilverTip load will probably not do as well against blind barriers.



....
Link Posted: 4/3/2021 9:03:17 PM EST
[#17]
Link Posted: 4/3/2021 9:52:31 PM EST
[#18]
I was just talking to my LEO buddy this morning about Winchester Silvertips. They are his department's issue ammunition for their patrol rifles. He said they can't get them anymore, that they were discontinued. I guess he was talking about an earlier version. As a side note, his department is having a very hard time getting any 9mm or .223 ammunition, to the point that most training has been suspended.
Link Posted: 4/4/2021 6:29:08 AM EST
[#19]
According to the Winchester site the Silvertip is rated at a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps from a 16" barrel.

The Deer Season XP is rated at 3020 fps muzzle velocity. I can't seem to find barrel length information on this round but it does mention a 1:7 to 1:9 twist intended use.

One online retailer has both in stock with a difference of .05 cpr between the two. The XP being $1.70 per round versus Silvertip at $1.65 per round for boxes of 20.
Link Posted: 4/4/2021 9:09:02 PM EST
[#20]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
According to the Winchester site the Silvertip is rated at a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps from a 16" barrel.

The Deer Season XP is rated at 3020 fps muzzle velocity. I can't seem to find barrel length information on this round but it does mention a 1:7 to 1:9 twist intended use.

One online retailer has both in stock with a difference of .05 cpr between the two. The XP being $1.70 per round versus Silvertip at $1.65 per round for boxes of 20.
View Quote

The silver tip is from a 16" barrel, the deer season xp is likely a 20 or 24" barrel

I should be able to go out and get gel, velocity, and accuracy tomorrow, weather allowing
Link Posted: 4/4/2021 10:28:43 PM EST
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

The silver tip is from a 16" barrel, the deer season xp is likely a 20 or 24" barrel

I should be able to go out and get gel, velocity, and accuracy tomorrow, weather allowing
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
According to the Winchester site the Silvertip is rated at a muzzle velocity of 2700 fps from a 16" barrel.

The Deer Season XP is rated at 3020 fps muzzle velocity. I can't seem to find barrel length information on this round but it does mention a 1:7 to 1:9 twist intended use.

One online retailer has both in stock with a difference of .05 cpr between the two. The XP being $1.70 per round versus Silvertip at $1.65 per round for boxes of 20.

The silver tip is from a 16" barrel, the deer season xp is likely a 20 or 24" barrel

I should be able to go out and get gel, velocity, and accuracy tomorrow, weather allowing

Same issue with Federal Fusion MSR and just Fusion, the MSR if measured from a 16" barrel, while the regular stuff is measured from a (I believe) 24" barrel.

Looking forward to the tests!
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 7:48:00 PM EST
[#22]
Here are the precision and terminal data. Chronograph data will be added, hopefully tomorrow. The weather was not cooperating and I couldn't get an accurate velocity reading.
First are the results of my "precision" test.
Groups were fired at 200 (technically 201.1) yards, from a rifle built with a Triarc systems 14.5" SEP rifled barrel with a pinned and welded PWS FSC556 for an OAL of over 16". Optic used was a Nightforce BEAST 5-25x56 scope. 3 groups of 10 rounds were fired at a slow but steady pace, with the chamber being cooled for 35 seconds every 3 rounds using a chamber chiller.  Weather was overcast to cloudy, 58° F,  0.0 - 0.1 MPH wind, pressure at 29.94in.

/Users/eliasaamot/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Mail Downloads/1026B013-1BA2-471C-978E-1DDE4F4B6363/IMG_2737.jpg
The group size was 3.99 inches, or 1.9 MOA, with a mean radius of 1.2 inches, or .57 MOA.
I was pleasantly surprised by the accuracy, I have never found Winchester ammo to be particularly accurate, and often with severe "fliers". In my opinion, for defensive ammo, this is acceptable accuracy at 200 yards. This barrel is capable of consistent .75 inch groups at 100 yards, and can easily group below 1 MOA with match handloads.
For the gel testing, only one round was fired, at a distance of 10 yards from a 16" Colt HBAR barrel into a 10% clear ballistics FBI block, with the dimensions of 16 x 6 x 6 inch.



The powder used is a fine, somewhat flattened spherical powder. I do not have a microscope, so am not 100% sure, but I have an idea about what powder is used in this load.



The terminal effect, of one round fired, was excellent. The bullet fragmented early, with the remnants of the tip all being found within the first 2.5 inches of penetration. Neck was almost nonexistent, at about .4 inches. The core and jacket expanded to an average diameter of .431 inches. The penetration was excellent, and almost exactly 14.25 inches of gel. The final weight of the "mushroomed" core was 41.04 grains, of 64% weight retention.
The bullet itself weighs ~63grains without tip, and on average 64.4 grains with tip.
Here are the pictures of the expanded bullet and fragments, Headstamp is WINCHESTER 223 rem
/Users/eliasaamot/Library/Containers/com.apple.mail/Data/Library/Mail Downloads/E11E372D-E6D5-4CD6-A279-6F0BDBB6AF49/IMG_2752.jpg











Here is a bullet with the tip removed. There is a quite deep and wide hollow cavity.

https://app.photobucket.com/u/eliaamot/p/0a7b07fb-a8db-468e-8760-fe54def49924
I am no Molon nor Dr. Roberts, but in my unprofessional opinion, this bullet gives sufficient "combat" accuracy and excellent terminal performance
Link Posted: 4/6/2021 8:02:17 PM EST
[#23]
I'm not sure why the image links don't work, I have honestly never posted images before and I thought photobucket was GTG. aIf someone can help me post images that would be great, if not the images can all be found in the photobucket link at the bottom of my post
Link Posted: 4/7/2021 7:41:34 AM EST
[#24]
Wonder how those would do out of an 11.5" barrel?
Link Posted: 4/9/2021 12:21:47 AM EST
[#25]
Thanks for posting! I've had my eye on this load for a while but like many, I had concerns about using Iight and midweight ballistic tipped rounds for defense. (77 grain TMKs are a different animal).

How deep was the penetration in your gel test? Didn't see that listed and I know that's typically the main concern with the BT rounds
Link Posted: 4/9/2021 9:19:04 PM EST
[#26]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:

How deep was the penetration in your gel test? Didn't see that listed and I know that's typically the main concern with the BT rounds
View Quote


Sorry, I forgot to include that. First time doing this lol. penetration was almost exactly 14.25 inches, out of a 16" barrel
Link Posted: 4/9/2021 11:32:02 PM EST
[#27]
No worries! Thats excellent performance from a bullet of that type. Thanks again for putting in the time and getting some first impressions out there. Been googling for months and coming up empty on this load.
Link Posted: 4/14/2021 8:13:35 AM EST
[#28]
This was my rifle duty round for a few years.  Then the Dept switched to a Speer round.  Rumor is we could not buy enough rounds so we switched to Speer, which seems to be just as hard to find.  

I don't have any terminal ballistics for you, but this round seemed accurate enough for a patrol rifle in 20" and 16" variety, "minute of man" holes in paper kinda of round.
Link Posted: 4/14/2021 9:30:35 AM EST
[#29]
The Winchester site has I think four different 64 grain loads.....

the old power point
a lead free hollow point
a lead core hollow point
and the polymer tip defense/ cxp silvertip bullet.(5 if you think they are actually different, they used to sell the power point in a LE ammo box too.)

Link Posted: 4/14/2021 2:29:33 PM EST
[#30]
Winchester also loads (used to load?) a 64 grain bonded solid base.




Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B Ammunition






Today, we have a wider selection of quality self-defense ammunition for our AR-15s to choose from than ever before. The construction and function of these modern self-defense loads is not limited by the archaic confines proffered by the Hague Conventions and far surpasses the consistency of terminal ballistic properties of “old school” loads such as M193 and M855.

There are two modern schools of thought regarding the selection of the type of projectile to use in a self-defense load; the first preferring a fragmenting, heavy (75-77 grain) OTM type bullet and the second opting for an expanding “blind-to-barriers” bullet. The top performers in the fragmenting, heavy OTM type  category are Hornady’s 5.56mm 75 grain TAP T2,   the Nosler 77 grain Custom Competition and the new Black Hills Ammunition load utilizing the Sierra 77 grain Tipped MatchKing.  


A plethora of 5.56mm/223 Remington loads utilizing expanding barrier-blind projectiles have come to the market in the last several years. One of the top performing loads in this category is currently issued by the FBI; the Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B.  Terminal ballistic testing conducted by Dr. G.K. Roberts using the scientific standard of properly prepared and validated 10% ordnance gelatin has shown that this load has an average penetration depth of 17.1” in bare gelatin with a recovered diameter of 0.46” (when fired from a 16" barrel.)  After passing through an intermediate barrier of automobile safety glass, the load has an average penetration depth of 13.6” with a recovered diameter of 0.35” (again from a 16” barrel.)

The Winchester RA556B load is topped with the Nosler 64 grain Bonded Solid Base projectile.  This bullet has a copper base that comprises almost one-third of the length of the projectile.  Obviously, the lead core is bonded to the copper jacket.  The bullet has a cannelure and a “Protected Point” design for reliable feeding in AR-15s
















Winchester’s RA556B ammunition is loaded in WCC 5.56mm brass that has the annealing iris still visible.  The primers are crimped and sealed.  The case mouth has a heavy collet crimp and “black Lucas” sealant.  The cartridge is charged with “ball” powder.











A ballistic table on the back of the RA556B ammunition box claims that this load has a muzzle velocity of 2935 FPS, but unfortunately there is no mention of the barrel length used for this figure.  The standard barrel length for assessing the velocity of 5.56mm ammunition is a 20” barrel.  A review of Winchester’s law enforcement ammunition catalog revealed that the above figure was indeed derived from a 20” barrel with a NATO chamber and a 1:7” twist.









Speed is fine . . .

I chronographed the Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B ammunition from a semi-automatic AR-15 with a chrome-lined, NATO chambered 20” Colt M16A2 barrel with a 1:7” twist.










Chronographing was conducted using an Oehler 35-P chronograph with “proof screen” technology. The Oehler 35P chronograph is actually two chronographs in one package that takes two separate chronograph readings for each shot and then has its onboard computer analyze the data to determine if there is any statistically significant difference between the two readings. If there is, the chronograph “flags” the shot to let you know that the data is invalid. There was no invalid data flagged during this testing.

The velocity stated below is the muzzle velocity as calculated from the instrumental velocity using Oehler’s Ballistic Explorer software program. The string of fire consisted of 10 rounds over the chronograph.









Each round was single-loaded and cycled into the chamber from a magazine fitted with a single-load follower. The bolt locked-back after each shot allowing the chamber to cool in between each shot. This technique was used to mitigate the possible influence of “chamber-soak” on velocity data. Each new shot was fired in a consistent manner after hitting the bolt release. Atmospheric conditions were monitored and recorded using a Kestrel 4000 Pocket Weather Tracker.









Atmospheric conditions

Temperature: 76 degrees F
Humidity: 45%
Barometric pressure: 29.96 inches of Hg
Elevation: 950 feet above sea level


The muzzle velocity for the 10-shot string of the Winchester RA556B ammunition fired from the 20” Colt barrel was 2976 FPS with a standard deviation of 20 FPS and a coefficient of variation of 0.67%.

For those of you who might not be familiar with the coefficient of variation (CV), it is the standard deviation, divided by the mean (average) muzzle velocity and then multiplied by 100 and expressed as a percentage. It allows for the comparison of the uniformity of velocity between loads in different velocity spectrums; e.g. 77 grain loads running around 2,650 fps compared to 55 grain loads running around 3,250 fps.

For comparison, the mil-spec for M193 allows for a coefficient of variation of approximately 1.2%, while one of my best 77 grain OTM hand-loads, with a muzzle velocity of 2639 PFS and a standard deviation of 4 FPS, has a coefficient of variation of 0.15%.










Accuracy is final . . .

I conducted an accuracy (technically, precision) evaluation of the Winchester Ranger 5.56mm 64 grain RA556B ammunition following my usual protocol. This accuracy evaluation used statistically significant shot-group sizes and every single shot in a fired group was included in the measurements. There was absolutely no use of any group-reduction techniques (e.g. fliers, target movement, Butterfly Shots).

The shooting set-up will be described in detail below. As many of the significant variables as was practicable were controlled for. Also, a control group was fired from the test-rifle used in the evaluation using match-grade, hand-loaded ammunition; in order to demonstrate the capability of the barrel. Pictures of shot-groups are posted for documentation.

All shooting was conducted from a concrete bench-rest from a distance of 100 yards (confirmed with a laser rangefinder.) The barrel used in the evaluation was free-floated. The free-float handguards of the rifle rested in a Sinclair Windage Benchrest, while the stock of the rifle rested in a Protektor bunny-ear rear bag. Sighting was accomplished via a Leupold VARI-X III set at 25X magnification and adjusted to be parallax-free at 100 yards. A mirage shade was attached to the objective-bell of the scope. Wind conditions on the shooting range were continuously monitored using a Wind Probe. The set-up was very similar to that pictured below.









The Wind Probe.






The test vehicle for this evaluation was one of my semi-automatic precision AR-15s with a 20” stainless-steel Lothar Walther barrel. The barrel has a 223 Wylde chamber with a 1:8” twist. Prior to firing the Winchester RA556B ammunition, I fired a 10-shot control group using match-grade hand-loads topped with the Sierra 55 grain BlitzKing. That group had an extreme spread of 0.635”.









Next, three 10-shot groups of the Winchester RA556B load were fired in a row with the resulting extreme spreads:

2.03”
1.77”
1.90”

for a 10-shot group average extreme spread of 1.90”. The three 10-shot groups were over-layed on each other using RSI Shooting Lab to form a 30-shot composite group. The mean radius for the 30-shot composite group was 0.66”.




The smallest 10-shot group . . .






The 30-shot composite group . . .







No canines were harmed during the testing of this ammunition.




…..
Link Posted: 4/17/2021 8:18:41 AM EST
[#31]
Link Posted: 4/17/2021 12:28:29 PM EST
[#32]
Molon, excellent write up thank you
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