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Posted: 7/28/2003 10:42:35 PM EDT
...if i shoot my M4 with a mini-y comp indoors without hearing protection?

For a home defense situation for example...assuming not many shots are fired.

Thanks in advance
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 10:49:44 PM EDT
maybe not forever... but that bastard is loud as hell
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 10:50:27 PM EDT
If in a life on the line deal id take deaf over dead anyday....But yes your hearing would be very screwed up.......
Link Posted: 7/28/2003 10:51:45 PM EDT
no but your palms will get hairy.......seriously though..i'm sure that could cause hearing damage.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 1:56:56 AM EDT
just make sure you don't miss. Then you would be deaf for nothing. :)
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 3:49:51 AM EDT
More than likely, your ear drums will be ruptured. Alot of this will depend on the room size, angles and items within the room. Mark
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 4:27:38 AM EDT
What?
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 4:39:58 AM EDT
Every time one fires a rifle, from .22 on up (I forget the actual decibel level), one does permanent, irreparable hearing damage, however slight it may be. Having had to fire a .45 ACP in a 4X4 bathroom without hearing protection, I would advise against it, unless ones life is on the line. However, I wouldn't hesitate if need be, and I also would not worry about ruptured ear drum. I want to watch my babies grow up. FWIW Doc
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 5:06:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2003 5:15:11 AM EDT by blikbok]
There are two kinds of hearing loss, a temporary threshold shift and permanent threshold shift. The first can be an indication that the second is on the way. If you touch off any firearm in an enclosed space, you will get TTS. This will happen even with a .177 airgun or a suppressed .22. It will be much worse with a .223 with a muzzle break, but the point is all firearms will give you TTS. I think the muzzle break will make the blast worse by directing more to the sides and reflecting off the walls back to you. TTS usually lasts for a day, and definately affect your tactical sense for the next few minutes. Mine lasted three days and people could tell my balance was affected. It is likely a single shot or two will not cause PTS, but many, cumulative rounds definately will. I've got some citations, but I remember most of this from my first (and hopefully last) case of shooting-related hearing damage. I wear plugs and muffs even when shooting suppressed guns now. :) Shortly, I will join the ranks of people who keep electronic hearing muffs next to their bed. http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Threshold_Shift.html http://www.sfu.ca/sonic-studio/handbook/Impact_Sound.html
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 6:20:19 AM EDT
I've always thought about this, and having unforunately done prolonged shooting without protection (I was new and the guy showing me is more hunter than shooter), it's an unpleasant experience. So what do soldiers in combat do with machine guns and grenades and bombs going off all around them? Go deaf?
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 7:23:14 AM EDT
A single shot out of a .44mag outdoors caused permanent hearing damage in my left ear, along with Tinnitus.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 8:05:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: ...if i shoot my M4 with a mini-y comp indoors without hearing protection? For a home defense situation for example...assuming not many shots are fired. Thanks in advance
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In a true home defense situation that requires firing, you wont have time to notice the sound. [;)]
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 8:32:00 AM EDT
i once forgot to put my earplugs in when shooting the SKS outside and thought i blew my eardrum it actually hurt ;) i can only imagine shooting indoors without plugs. cant be good for the ears is my vote hehe
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 8:48:56 AM EDT
You don't say how old you are, but you probably won't go deaf, you just won't be able to hear worth a damn. Better to use (good) earmuffs always, always, always. Of course, if SHTF you won't be using hearing protection anyway. Prudence requires that you do your best to protect your hearing. Cheers!
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 9:43:16 AM EDT
Ya sure will, but not permanently (unless you empty the mag)... I had TTF a couple weeks ago, I got it from my 30-30 and 12ga... every time I touched my ear, it sounded like a guitar string was being plucked inside my head.. lol
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 10:40:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By BridgerNY: So what do soldiers in combat do with machine guns and grenades and bombs going off all around them? Go deaf?
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Good point, how DO they do it?
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 11:06:39 AM EDT
i am no doctor, but i personally believe it has to do with the person. i have shot thousands of rounds out of many different types of rifles (sks, 30.06, 30-30, 250 savage, 22lr, 12 gauge to name a few) and didn't experience any long term damage according to my audiologist(sp?). all my shooting was done outdoors, in the field. but like others have stated, i would rather be deaf than dead. if the situation came down to you and an intruder, and one is going to die, you would be so stressed and adrenalized you probably wouldn't hear the shot at the time. i am sure you would notice the effects after though.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 11:07:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon:
Originally Posted By BridgerNY: So what do soldiers in combat do with machine guns and grenades and bombs going off all around them? Go deaf?
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Good point, how DO they do it?
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if i remember, i will ask some vets i work with...
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 11:08:45 AM EDT
I'm no soldier, and I don't want to be the first on the scene with a "my buddy in the army story" but my buddy in the army says they are issued resuable plugs in a dull-red color. He used them often in AIT and MILES, sometimes with just one in, sometimes both not tightly fitted. Hearing protection for the shooter is one of the best reasons for mounting suppressors.
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 12:05:03 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Lockedon: ...if i shoot my M4 with a mini-y comp indoors without hearing protection? For a home defense situation for example...assuming not many shots are fired. Thanks in advance
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Not only can you suffer PERMANENT hearing loss but also PERMANENT ringing in the ears as a result of exposure to gun shots OUTDOORS. I know first hand. I have both from firing my .357 Mag with no protection when I was a kid. No doubt the effects of firing a weapon indoors can be more severe, but in a home defense situation… ya gotta do... what ya gotta do. --RR
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 8:11:02 PM EDT
Watch the History Channel and see all the WWII vetrans they interview with hearing aids. Exposure to loud and constant noises like driving a fire engine, mowing the yard, or riding in a diesel locomotive will also take its toll on your hearing. Some say the lower level of constant noise will do more damage than moderate amount of gun shots. I don't know if this is true, but I wear ear muffs while mowing. AMOS
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 8:52:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 7/29/2003 10:20:43 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/29/2003 10:21:50 PM EDT by brewsky101]
Last summer I took a .30-06 muzzle blast to the right ear, about 2 feet to the left and about 1 foot in front of the muzzle. It hurt so bad at first that I wanted to shoot the dumb ass that couldn't wait for me to get out of the way to take his shot. I took a trip to the ear doctor, he said everything was fine. Now I use hearing protectors when at the range and plinking. When I'm hunting, the noise doesn't bother me because of the adrenaline(x10 if there was a varmint inside my house).
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 12:08:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By bob332:
Originally Posted By Lockedon:
Originally Posted By BridgerNY: So what do soldiers in combat do with machine guns and grenades and bombs going off all around them? Go deaf?
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Good point, how DO they do it?
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if i remember, i will ask some vets i work with...
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i talked to one and he said they were issued ear plugs and used them, but he still has the ringing in his ears....
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 12:22:59 AM EDT
Electronic ear muffs sound like a great idea(pun intended). I work in a plant that I must wear ear protection while I work(12.25hours) and when I work nights, I sleep with ear plugs in--so the wife and kids don't wake me up. When I wake up I usually go outside and shoot--- the ear plugs go back in. This still beats when I was growing up back in Kansas running a tractor with a straight pipe(no muffler) and the turbo turned up to give more horsepower. My Dad would releive me and I would start up the pickup to drive home to eat lunch and not know if the truck was running until I put it in gear because I couldn't hear the engine.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 12:22:59 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2003 12:30:39 AM EDT by IronBalaclava]
Well, I for one have fired my Mini-Y comped M4A3 indoors in my basement with a backstop(several phone books) with no hearing protection(I advise against this practice.)I already suffer from pretty bad Tinnitus. I couldn't hear SHIT the entire day and decible levels around me were silenced by about 50% for 4-5 days....followed by my regular ever-present Tinnitus. You won't go deaf right away, but to put it in layman's terms: "You're whole Shit will be fucked up!"[%|] edited to add: at least you won't be able to hear the follow up shots![BD]
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 4:02:12 AM EDT
Hello. It's a fight, right? Have you ever been in a fight where you didn't get hurt? I haven't. Who gives a fuck about your hearing? I'd concentrate on staying alive. I wouldn't recommend PRACTICING without ear protection. But life or death is life or death. What are you going to do, blow dry your hair befor you snuff the bastard? Priorities my good friend. Your hearing may, or may not, be permanently affected. The idea is to be around to find out. Now be carful - and safe.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 5:00:57 AM EDT
He may not have been suggesting hesitating, but more questioning whether or not thay mini-Y would make a big difference, if he's not trained to fight indoors, or has not experienced it first hand I think its a rational question, and responsible to try to get a feel for what his mental states going to be aftr letting a round go indoors. I think its responsible question. And personally, I give a $#it if I go deaf, you will too, once it happens, and your livelihood's lost, if you depend on all of your senses. Now obviously I'd shoot, to save my life, just like I'd risk blindness from muzzle flash, if my life was on the line, but if knowing a thing or two before the fight could prevent either, I'd want to take those precautions. On, the GI issue, most suffer some hearing loss. Temporary and permanent. Ever think or GI's would be issued Knee and/or elbow pads, what about ballistic sunglasses? I'm sure muffs, w/ electronic capabilities and/or radio interfaces will become standard for or combt/comtact elements.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 5:56:17 AM EDT
Don't practice without hearing protection... That is stupid advice. Chances are you won't be in a life and death situation. If you are, you won't even notice the noise. Practicing without it will cause permanent hearing damage and you can never get that back. Soldiers are issued ear plugs and should wear them. I took a similar advice when I was young, dumb and full a cum, and would shoot without them Mostly in sniper school. Now I have permanent hearing damage on my left ear and I was close from not being considered for a Federal Law Enforcement job because of it. During my last demobe, I was told if my hearing gets worse, I may have to stop being Infantry and choose another MOS. This is what the doctors told me.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 9:19:23 AM EDT
I made the mistake of firing a single shot with my Bushmaster with Mini-Y Comp without any hearing protection. Once the horrible pain in my left ear went away, I vowed to never shoot that gun without hearing protection again. Because of that shot as well as a few with my SKS without any protection, I now have a pretty sensitive left ear. Since I'd prefer to just wear ear protection instead of losing my hearing any more, I never shoot without some form of hearing protection.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 9:33:40 AM EDT
I was about 3 feet away from a .45 that was shot indoors without hearing protection. My ear hurt for about 4 hours and rang for a day or so. It seems OK now. I think a rifle would be louder though. I'm pretty sure that multiple shots in and enclosed environment would definitely do permanent hearing damage. Weather or not you would notice it during the actual life threatening situation I cannot say. I'm sure once you clamed down though it would hurt. One more reason suppressors should not only be legal, but encouraged.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 10:02:43 AM EDT
I don't even want to think about shooting my m4 indoors without hearing protection. Shooting my m4 outdoors WITH ear plugs still hurts my ears and sometimes gives me a slight headache from the vibrations.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 11:44:40 AM EDT
I am also a member of the rifle-went-off-next-to my head club :( I have diligently worn hearing protection since. Back to the original post: I would be very afraid of using a muzzle-breaked or ported firearm of any time for any self-defense use. I would also caution against any suggestion that you "try" to shoot once without hearing protection. My kingdom for unregulated reflex suppressors.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 2:04:11 PM EDT
Wear ear protection (plugs and muffs) any time your intentionally shooting. Its not worth your hearing. Been there done that. Got the hearing loss
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 3:08:39 PM EDT
IMNSHO (as a former mini-y comp owner) not only will it make you deaf, but I would expect to see blood running out of your nose and ears. It also wouldn't suprise me if both your retinas detached. For God's sake, send that Satanic little bastard to Kurt's Kustom Firearms, get the mini-y comp cut off, and get an A3 comp installed. That's what I did and I am 100% satisfied with the results.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 3:23:39 PM EDT
Yeah you might get a little hearing loss maybe! Alot aint cool, am 21 and 95% one and 75% in the other ear Deaf! The M1A2 SEP tank is a bad boy was worth it I think!! Took only 2 years to lose that much hearing in the army on M1a1-M1A2 Seps.
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 10:01:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 7/30/2003 10:06:51 PM EDT by Lockedon]
Thanks a million to all that have responded so far, you've all been of great help![8D] Can one even mount a surpressor onto a post-ban AR w/y-comp? What do you have to do, to do it legally? After the $200 tax stamp, can you add post-ban features?
Originally Posted By Arkansas_Rocketman: For God's sake, send that Satanic little bastard to Kurt's Kustom Firearms, get the mini-y comp cut off, and get an A3 comp installed. That's what I did and I am 100% satisfied with the results.
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How much did that cost you total (shipping and all?) Got any pictures of what it looks like? Whats the Web-Site addy?
Link Posted: 7/30/2003 10:29:22 PM EDT
I had a 5.56 fired 16 inches from my left ear. It wasnt so bad. .357 at arms length is worse.
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 1:32:21 AM EDT
Considering I already have a constant ringing in the ears from shooting to much. I wouldn't flinch about shooting anything indoors if the situation requires me to. Worst case I'll just learn how to read lips. [:)]
Link Posted: 7/31/2003 2:07:59 AM EDT
I had a flash bang(flash crash/light and sound device/stun grenade/whatever you want to call it) go off in close proximity(someone else didn't throw it in the right spot)It went off on a stair landing as I was passing by that to go into another room. I was even with the wall at the corner and my right ear got the full impact of the blast, it was about 5' away. It was loud as can be, I didn't really notice any pain-then. When we were done and collecting up our gear, I felt it then. When I put my hand to feel it, I had some blood oozing out. Like others have said, it fing hurt! After seeing the doctors and it healed, I had no measured loss, this was compared to my previous years test. I learned one thing and to wear some ear pro. Of course the guy spinning around on the floor and bringing his hands around was sure glad I keep my finger off the trigger until ready! The F/B went off at the same time! Mark
Link Posted: 8/1/2003 1:26:26 AM EDT
I had an M16 fired over my left shoulder, muzzle was very close to my head. Also fired M16 blanks in aircraft while training. Fired a handgun in an enclosed space once. It all hurt. Can't claim VA disability because I'm not sure how much of my hearing loss is due to loud rock and roll music from headphones in the 70's.:) I can state from experience that both are bad for you. Auditory exclusion is a wierd thing, I never heard the pistol shot, just felt it afterwards. I am very serious about eye and ear protection now. While training please take all precautions, it is not worth the damage. If TSHTF you won't notice the noise.
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 6:51:34 AM EDT
My Wife trained (and taught) as a Speech Therapist and advises me that the damage is cumulative. Some of the vibrating hairs in your ear (cilia I think, she's not home now to ask) die each time there is a damaging loud noise. I have severe hearing loss and tinnitus at this point and need to get tested and hearing aids (can buy almost 2 pre-ban AR15s for what a hearing aid cost and insurance doesn't cover them)! My late Father was in US Army Infantry in WWII (D-Day + 10 and onward thru Battle of the Bulge and to Berlin). He suffered from a severe hearing loss, but never tested or did anything about it. He was a BAR operator! When in Boy Scouts (~1958) we shot .22 rifles at Boy Scout Camp, no hearing or eye protection. Graduated college and went to work for GD/EB on nuclear subs, they were always grinding and welding and we didn't wear any ear protection (not provided back in 1971-73). Stupidly, when I would walk up on the skeet/trap field (no closer than 15' from shooters) I wouldn't wear hearing protection, but always did when "on the line" shooting. Only once was subjected to someone shooting a .38 Airweight when I didn't have hearing protection on and those three shots rang my ears for a few days (we were shooting outdoors under a roofed building (no sides). I always wear ear protection on the range now, but it is already late and significant loss causes me problems hearing what others are saying, not to mention the constant noise in my head from the tinnitus. If a life or death situation, do what you have to do to survive, otherwise always wear eye and ear protection!
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 7:18:45 AM EDT
I am in a sort of unique position, as my profession includes live sound mixing and related work. My hearing is somewhat important to me as you might imagine... I will probably get a set of ear plugs made. They cost about $100 and flatten across nearly the entire hearable range equally... i.e. they don't color or distort the sound, merely reduce its volume. They are used a lot by mixers at concerts and whatnot and usually reduce by 20db. I can use them for work and play. ;)
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 8:09:17 AM EDT
There was a pretty good article in last months (maybe the month before) on hearing protection in Precision Rifle magazine FWIW. I found it interesting and informative...
Link Posted: 8/2/2003 10:50:48 AM EDT
Xen; For gunfire, 20 db ain't a hell of a lot! Cheers!
Link Posted: 8/3/2003 2:41:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 8/3/2003 7:16:56 PM EDT
Deaf? Hard to say... possible. Partial loss of hearing, either temporary or permanamt... definately. As a result... my AR with mini-y isn't my home defense gun. Shooting it at an outdoor range with a set of not quite properly fitted plugs AND a set of muffs over them, with a concrete wall 20 feet to my left and a tin roof over my head resulted in severe temporary loss for about 3-4 weeks and some slight permanant loss. These days I won't pack my plugs in my range bag. Some idiot will inevitably fire away as I get out of my car. I drive to the range with the plugs IN... and don the muffs before leaving the car.
Link Posted: 8/3/2003 7:26:27 PM EDT
I like the simple answer [:)] Yes
Link Posted: 8/3/2003 8:47:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Him: Xen; For gunfire, 20 db ain't a hell of a lot! Cheers!
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The Decibel scale is logarithmic scale; 10log(p[2]/p[1]) = 20dB; sound attenuation is 100x
Link Posted: 8/4/2003 5:52:28 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/4/2003 5:53:25 PM EDT by hkump45]
I don't like the french, but they do have something that makes far more sense than our dumbass laws, suppressors are not only unrestricted, but are encouraged, with the reason of the public's hearing
Link Posted: 8/5/2003 9:27:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By hkump45: I don't like the french, but they do have something that makes far more sense than our dumbass laws, suppressors are not only unrestricted, but are encouraged, with the reason of the public's hearing
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Really? Never heard of that...very interesting
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