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Posted: 6/6/2008 3:08:36 PM EST
I know full well what I'm stirring up here but I just wanted to see what kind of opinions we get.

I like the AR15 a lot and still think it's a great design, but more and more I'm coming to think that a .223 ak based weapon, or a sig 55x weapon, is my goto gun for shtf, and just superior overall when you take into account the critical factor of reliability (especially reliability in adverse conditions).

The ak and sig rifles are the only ones I know of (except galil, which is too heavy) that use the locking mag design. They are comparable in weight, ergonomics, and accuracy to the AR, but have one distinct advantage. Their mags never fail, and they never fail to feed/fail to cycle!

Exhibit A:

Check out this youtube vid. Here's a seemingly decently trained shooter with I'm sure a new, well maintained AR, and his weapon fails to feed at a critical moment due to the shitty mag locking design.

www.youtube.com/watch?v=3ZvBptVNSOA

Compare that to this (I'm quoting from a thread on theakforum.net):


So a fellow member here found this buried in the mud....










I still think the AR is a great design, light, ergonomic, low recoil; but more and more I think that a .223 ak based rifle, or sig 55x, would be superior in terms of reliability, while not losing much in terms of handling/recoil. Cleaner running action too. For shtf, seems the best option. The mags on the AR are just too problematic. The ak/sig locking mag system really puts those models over the top as far as I'm concerned. Depending on how costly and high brow you want to get, the sig and the ak are your two best options IMO.

The new piston ARs definitely run cleaner/more reliable, and I guess the upgrade mags I hear about help.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:15:01 PM EST
ummmm.....what ?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:17:16 PM EST

Their mags never fail, and they never fail to feed/fail to cycle!


Yep! It's never happened.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:18:29 PM EST
He posted this in the survival forum too. Seems like trolling to me.

This is tired...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:19:01 PM EST

Originally Posted By MMcfpd:

Their mags never fail, and they never fail to feed/fail to cycle!


Yep! It's never happened.

haha, i can testify from personal experience, it does happen.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:19:22 PM EST
Haven't heard of PMAGs have you?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:19:52 PM EST
Use one then.

I'll stick to the AR.

Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:30:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By OlCrow:
Use one then.

I'll stick to the AR.



+1
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:32:18 PM EST
Yeah, Sig 55X for SHTF. Good luck finding parts.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:34:26 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:34:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 3:36:44 PM EST by dre15]
I like the AR and I also like the AK. In a SHTF situation I'm sure both will get a good amount of use from me.

Edit: By this logic shouldn't we all be screwed since our government chose the "wrong" gun? I'd say war is a SHTF situation and it has worked well so far. I'm sure the AR will serve me just fine when called upon. Just as it has for others since it was adopted.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:40:02 PM EST
If it works for Will Smith in a SHTF situation then it will work for me!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:42:05 PM EST
Oh, well the Youtube video makes it definitive.
If PMCS is too much for you, if learning how to seat a mag correctly is too much for you, and you are more comfortable with seating an AK mag and whatever, go ahead.
I have no doubts about my ARs. None.
These are the guys the AK was meant for:



This is the guy the AR was meant for:

Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:46:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 3:55:12 PM EST by 0612Devil]


Are you really trying to use that "SOCOM Swat SF Training" video to use as proof in this discussion? That shooter in that vid is using an aftermarket AR, with aftermarket sights. Last time I checked, Specwar guys don't walk around the woods taking glamor videos of eachother shooting at cardboard leaning against trees.

That shooter was NOT well trained. He didn't properly push/pull his mag to ensure it was seated. The fact is, loading an AR mag correctly is still faster than that of an AK unless someone is extremely well practiced. I'll stick with my AR, thanks...


eta:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYauOv0-I6Y

This special operator's weapon jammed as well. Guess we can't use the AK for "TSHTF" anymore...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:48:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 3:48:41 PM EST by Ridge_Runner_5]
I believe an AK FAILURE is what got one of the gunmen at the North Hollywood Shootout killed...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 3:50:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By mauiblue:

Originally Posted By OlCrow:
Use one then.

I'll stick to the AR.



+1


+2
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:01:32 PM EST

Originally Posted By Ridge_Runner_5:
I believe an AK FAILURE is what got one of the gunmen at the North Hollywood Shootout killed...


See? AK's do have a place in a SHTF situation.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:04:11 PM EST
I'm trained on the m4/m16 weapons systems, aswell as the m240g, m249, at4, m203, etc so it's AR15/m16-m4 weapons for me for SHTF....but I'm still in the process of building my own m4 clone, so until then I will stick with my Akm.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:07:20 PM EST

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:


Are you really trying to use that "SOCOM Swat SF Training" video to use as proof in this discussion? That shooter in that vid is using an aftermarket AR, with aftermarket sights. Last time I checked, Specwar guys don't walk around the woods taking glamor videos of eachother shooting at cardboard leaning against trees.

That shooter was NOT well trained. He didn't properly push/pull his mag to ensure it was seated. The fact is, loading an AR mag correctly is still faster than that of an AK unless someone is extremely well practiced. I'll stick with my AR, thanks...


eta:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYauOv0-I6Y

This special operator's weapon jammed as well. Guess we can't use the AK for "TSHTF" anymore...



LOL...yeah. I'm not trying to be totally literal here when I say the AK NEVER jams, etc. I'm sure with the right training about proper mag insertion, etc, and a good ar setup, it will work just fine. But overall, when you take into account long term situations with inability to clean (which I know is a whole nother discussion the AR is not THAT bad probably run 5000 rounds between cleaning related failures)....the AK seems a bit better at least to me.

Most of it is just because I for whatever reason personally prefer the ak magazines, it's just easier for me to work with the ak magazine mechanics than AR. And again I'm talking .223 aks, not 7.62, which have more recoil but the advantage of being able to penetrate intermediate barriers (an important thing in urban warfare and other environments).
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:10:28 PM EST

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
Last time I checked, Specwar guys don't walk around the woods taking glamor videos of eachother shooting at cardboard leaning against trees.


yes we do

But there was no heckling in the background of that guys video
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:26:47 PM EST
I think that if SHTF, I'd use my AK for close quarters at home, but if I had to go out, I'm taking the AR because I can take more ammo with me. I'd like to have both though.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:31:43 PM EST
height=8
Originally Posted By mike_r:
height=8
Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
hat
That shooter was NOT well trained. He didn't properly push/pull his mag to ensure it was seated. The fact is, loading an AR mag correctly is still faster than that of an AK unless someone is extremely well practiced. I'll stick with my AR, thanks...


eta:

www.youtube.com/watch?v=pYauOv0-I6Y

This special operator's weapon jammed as well. Guess we can't use the AK for "TSHTF" anymore... h.
Most of it is just because I for whatever reason personally prefer the ak magazines, it's just easier for me to work with the ak magazine mechanics than AR. And again I'm talking .223 aks, not 7.62, which have more recoil but the advantage of being able to penetrate intermediate barriers (an important thing in urban warfare and other environments).


As far as "being able to penetrate intermediate barriers (an important thing in urban warfare and other environments)", that's what the .500 Beowolf upper is for.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:32:32 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:34:14 PM EST

Originally Posted By Captains1911:
I think that if SHTF, I'd use my AK for close quarters at home, but if I had to go out, I'm taking the AR because I can take more ammo with me. I'd like to have both though.


AK-74/Tantal or a 5.56nato chambered AK.

or get some buddies and bring a couple of each
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:34:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By usmcdoc14:

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
Last time I checked, Specwar guys don't walk around the woods taking glamor videos of eachother shooting at cardboard leaning against trees.


yes we do

But there was no heckling in the background of that guys video


Not enough time to nitpick the rest? I'm disappointed...
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:35:19 PM EST
look to me as if someone is just trying to get their view count up on youtube..wouldnt suprise me if the topic starter is just one of the videos producers..ever think of that.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:36:25 PM EST

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
These are the guys the AK was meant for:

i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/aktrainedtwr.jpg

This is the guy the AR was meant for:

i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/639yfdh.jpg

That was good
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:39:23 PM EST
This is why God invented pick-em-up trucks. Bring 'em all!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:46:31 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 4:48:17 PM EST by Captains1911]
BTW, I own one of each and my AK is currently out of commision due to a shitty pin connection between the gas piston and bolt carrier causing it to jam, YES JAM, every ten rounds or so. However, my AR is fully operational and ready to go!
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 4:49:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:

Originally Posted By usmcdoc14:

Originally Posted By 0612Devil:
Last time I checked, Specwar guys don't walk around the woods taking glamor videos of eachother shooting at cardboard leaning against trees.


yes we do

But there was no heckling in the background of that guys video


Not enough time to nitpick the rest? I'm disappointed...


hell no that guy in the vid was screwed up in every way you pointed

and you missed that he should have hot reloaded before he ran out of ammo, he had a few times he could have.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:05:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:06:12 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:17:29 PM EST


That was not an AR-15. It was a Carbon-15, either from Proffessonal Ordnance or Bushmaster. It may look like an AR, but it ain't even close.

Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:20:00 PM EST
I switched my SHTF to the AR recently after a day to the range with my DPMS and a couple of AK's of different origins. The AR never missed a beat and was more accurate in everyones hands. Before that I leaned a little more to the AK. I was using wolf in all rifles. That's just my story. That's why I'm building another AR instead of getting a 7th AK. I have only one AR. Shame on me. RRA 9mm will be next.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:23:55 PM EST
Tilte should read "Why I cant use an AR as my SHTF rifle"
I agree 100% some people should stick to AK's. So much less to think about....
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:30:15 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 5:32:16 PM EST by SamColt]

Originally Posted By m24shooter:
Oh, well the Youtube video makes it definitive.
If PMCS is too much for you, if learning how to seat a mag correctly is too much for you, and you are more comfortable with seating an AK mag and whatever, go ahead.
I have no doubts about my ARs. None.
These are the guys the AK was meant for:

i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/aktrainedtwr.jpg

This is the guy the AR was meant for:

i15.photobucket.com/albums/a391/m24shooter/639yfdh.jpg


First and foremost I'm a full on AR guy over anything really (except maybe an FAL but I wouldn't troll that here). I do though have to question your first pic there of the African children. Wasn't the AK designed for large numbers of trained Communist soldiers storming across Europe? Very reliable, marginally accurate and inexpensive? I would hate to think that Stoner shook the hand of a man who designed a weapon with child forces in mind.

To stay on topic I choose to own both and hopefully there never will be a SHTF situation.

Edited as I have the grammatical aptitude of an eight year old.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:39:03 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 5:39:49 PM EST by Atomic_Lab_Rat]

Originally Posted By EvilBert:

That was not an AR-15. It was a Carbon-15, either from POE fEssional Ordnance or



Mike R . . . All I have to say is this:

Is this you my brutha'? Did you give up your Gluck FOTAY for an AK?

Give me a break dude.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:57:31 PM EST
Was that guy shooting a friggin' CARBON FIFTEEN? You're trying to demonstrate that "inherant unreliability" of the AR using the Carbon 15?
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 5:57:41 PM EST

Originally Posted By mike_r:
The ak and sig rifles are the only ones I know of (except galil, which is too heavy) that use the locking mag design. They are comparable in weight, ergonomics, and accuracy to the AR, but have one distinct advantage. Their mags never fail, and they never fail to feed/fail to cycle!

The mags on the AR are just too problematic. The ak/sig locking mag system really puts those models over the top as far as I'm concerned. Depending on how costly and high brow you want to get, the sig and the ak are your two best options IMO.



First of all before someone screams "FOUL", the video link I'm posting is for a product I "rep". You state that AR mags are too problematic, yeah right!

Cammenga Easymag Torture Test

BTW, if the Galil is so great, why does Israel issue the M-16?

PursuitSS
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:06:14 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 6:08:32 PM EST by m24shooter]

Originally Posted By SamColt:
First and foremost I'm a full on AR guy over anything really (except maybe an FAL but I wouldn't troll that here). I do though have to question your first pic there of the African children. Wasn't the AK designed for large numbers of trained Communist soldiers storming across Europe? Very reliable, marginally accurate and inexpensive? I would hate to think that Stoner shook the hand of a man who designed a weapon with child forces in mind.

Yes. I understand that the AK was originally meant for poorly trained and supported conscript soldiers. Substitute any TWR and you have what has become the intended end-user for millions of those AKs. While Klashy baby might not have intended the AK for them at the outset, I'm pretty sure that at some point somebody made a decision that the AK would be great in the hands of TWR, and produced waaaaaayyyyyy more AKs than would ever be used by the Red Army.
And like it or not, Klashnikov was a subject of the Soviet Union.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:10:31 PM EST
If an M16 was good enough for me to take to war, twice, and never have an issue with it then its good for the rare SHTF event....



I had an AK. Sights sucked, no bolt hold open feature, inaccurate, ergo's are lame compared to an AR, et cetera.


While Im sure a tricked out AK is a fine weapon there is nothing wrong with using an AR for self defense.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:16:34 PM EST
im not sure if someone else said this already but im pretty sure the ar from the vid was a bushmaster carbon 15. not the greatest ar ever made imho
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:16:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 6/6/2008 8:46:46 PM EST by Backwoods_556]
I have an AR and I have a couple AK's.

One of my AK's is 5.56mm.

AK's were never intended for 5.56mm. They perform well with the steeply tapered BLOC cartridges such as 5.45x39 and 7.62x39, but 5.56 AK's have a record of feeding problems.

If you want an AK for SHTF, fine, but stick with the standard BLOC calibers. You should be fine.


BUT I have yet to fire an AK which was on par with an AR for accuracy. Not even close.

If you have a AR which is a proven reliable weapon and you keep it maintained, you'll find it is plenty reliable enough for any situation and you'll really, really like having a rifle far more accurate than what your opponent might be using.

I like my AK's. They're a lot of fun to shoot. But when the aliens land or the zombies are shuffling around, I'm using the AR15.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:21:29 PM EST
I read from time to time in some of the magazines like SOF etc. that members of the Iraqi Government forces by and large want to trade their AKs for M4s.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:22:37 PM EST

Originally Posted By Backwoods_556:

I like my AK's. They're a lot of fun to shoot. But when the aliens land or the zombies are shuffling around, I'm using the AR15.




PursuitSS
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:39:07 PM EST
Miker


Here's a seemingly decently trained shooter with I'm sure a new, well maintained AR, and his weapon fails to feed at a critical moment due to the shitty mag locking design.


Brother.. you can't buy a clue....and neither can that untrained doofuss with the Carbon 15 and no clue how to run it....

When the M16 reaches the 50 year mark.. we will still see these goofy threads....
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:43:21 PM EST
No thanks, I'll stick with my ar15.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:48:04 PM EST
you could always try one of these, I guess.

Link Posted: 6/6/2008 6:50:21 PM EST
The AK shooter that hasn't had a jam hasn't shot an AK enough.

You should own both. You should be shooting both on a consistant basis enough to be much more than proficient. You should have at least 1k rounds of ammo on hand for each and minimum of 10 mags per gun for each. Ideally you'd have 2 quality copies of each set up exactly like each other.

This is a stupid conversation that comes up very frequently.
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 7:04:04 PM EST
Link Posted: 6/6/2008 7:18:05 PM EST
Methinks mike_r isn't the brightest crayon in the box.
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