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Posted: 9/3/2004 9:49:14 AM EST
I still don't see why some folks say to not use a teflon lube in the barrel/bore? How does it harm the gun? Tons of lubes have PTFE in them and if it could harm the gun in any way why would it be in the lube? Thanks!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 4:47:53 PM EST
Ive never grasped the concerns either.Tried to find some documented information on the subject and could not find it.All I find is opinions and claims.
Ive used lubes that contain PTFE in many many bores over the years including a custom bench gun I had built and it still drives nails after 10 years of use.Never saw any problems with accuracy or bore damage from PTFE in any of my weapons so Im not convinced.
The arguement is that the PTFE leaves a inconsistant layer on the bore surface leaving bare steel in spots with a layers of smeared PTFE in spots.Therefore causing inconsistant pressures and wear within the bore.This is also the case that is claimed to cause accuracy issues.
I can see the points that some make about PTFE.Then there's the concern about the creation of hydrofluoric acid when the PTFE burns.But the fact is that PTFE burns at 1% at 900 degree's per hour...Thats darn hot for an extended amount of time that I doubt my weapons will ever see.So there's another concern that Im not going to dwell on.
In the last 15 years or so of using lubes containing PTFE,including one of my all time favorites TW-25B which has a very high percentage of PTFE,I do not completely agree with all that is said on the subject.Like I said I have not seen any unusual wear,nor have I had any accuracy issues or corrosion.
The only problem I have ever had with accuracy is heavy copper fouled bores and switching from moly coated bullets to basic copper jacketed bullets.The moly almost drove nuts on the bench gun to tell the trueth.
So I say do not worry about it.Im not going to.
Raymond
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 6:37:07 PM EST
Thanks again Blankwaffe! You have a lot of knowledge!
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:24:51 PM EST
Skag,

Breakfree CLP is a PTFE lube.
The worlds largest and most expensive rifle club issues Break free for use in the M16.

If PTFE was a real world problem, it would not be issued, let alone general issue.

Go ahead use the stuff all you want and don't worry!!

S-28
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:29:34 PM EST

Originally Posted By S-28:
Skag,

Breakfree CLP is a PTFE lube.
The worlds largest and most expensive rifle club issues Break free for use in the M16.

If PTFE was a real world problem, it would not be issued, let alone general issue.

Go ahead use the stuff all you want and don't worry!!

S-28



Well...

The April 2004 Special Forces sniper manual, (the real one, not a Paladin Press knockoff) says not to use PTFE containing products in the bore of a sniper rifle, as they degrade accuracy. It specifically mentions Shooter's Choice Rust Prevent for use in the bore.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 7:46:10 PM EST
I took a Police sniper class and the instructor was very anti teflon. His reasoning was that teflon in the bore makes for a funky cold bore shot. I'll have to agree with him there but my ARs still get CLP.
Link Posted: 9/3/2004 10:44:35 PM EST
First let me say Im no expert,Im not a biased PTFE man either.I use Firepower FP-10 CLP on and in all my rifles and have for the last two years.Nothing against PTFE based lubes as I still use TW-25B and MC-2500 oil on my pistols.I just think FP-10 is the best CLP for me to use on my rifles and it does not have PTFE in it.Like I said I used PTFE lubes for many years,namely Break Free CLP and have never seen a problem with acuuracy,wear,sludge etc.and that includes the high concentration of PTFE thats found in the Mil-comm.I may have been lucky but......
This has been debated over and over for many years.Ive had some pretty long talks with pro and con PTFE folks.
George Fennell of FP-10 fame is a good friend and as a Lubrication Engineer he absolutely hates PTFE in guns and has made the points very clear to me as well as many others.Like I said I agree to a point but I personally feel its totally over blown in most cases.Especially since we are talking about field grade AR15's that are fired shot after shot and most of the time not cleaned properly on top of that.
There are many more details that can affect accuracy than what a little PTFE will detail.Weapon assembly,fit and finish,parts matching etc. is much more important which inludes correct grade barrels and fit to receiver.On bolt guns,lug to receiver mate is critical as well as bedding of both the action and barrel if not free floated.
Barrel whip and changes from hot to cold is critical.And then theres the ammunition which plays a huge role lot to lot.Not to mention scopes,bases and rings...clean or dirty bore,even humidity can play a role etc.etc.etc...
From my experience with weapons and training the biggest influence I have found on a well made rifle is how its sighted and grade of ammo.Then you have the huge variable,the person behind the trigger.
The closest thing I come to in the arena of sniping is deer,elk and varmint hunting.The weapon I use is a basic off the shelf Rem.700 BDL 7mm mag....not great but not bad either after a little detailing.
My sight in procedure for this weapon is to sight the rifle in on a cold and a clean barrel.Consecutive shots are made after the barrel is cleaned and cooled.This is done with every shot until I hit what and where I want and get a setting.
That way my first shot is true,cold and on a clean barrel.
Granted the variation is somewhat minimal but the first shot is critical even in hunting.
Trace amounts of lubricant also adds to the situation as mentioned in another thread here.
Some even go as far and say the chromed bores are not as accurate and this could also add to the list.
So what it amounts to if your concerned with complete accuracy on the first shot follow the same procedure everytime,starting with a fresh barrel and make adjustments to POI from there.
I would also check the POI with a fouled warm bore and memorize it.That way you know what to expect in performance and can adjust to it.
Another tip since Im off topic.When adjusting the scope tap the windage and elevation knobs lightly several times after making an adjustment.And I mean lighty tap.I use a empty case to do this.
Sorry for the ramble.I like this topic.
Raymond
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 3:47:50 PM EST
WOW! That was a mouth full! Thanks again for the good "read"!
Link Posted: 9/4/2004 7:12:44 PM EST
Quietshooter,

Different utility and mission.

The differences pesented in a CCB shot vs. following shots is religion with the sniping community.

Lubricating solids in the bore are a variable that cannot be controlled and hence are avoided by serious DM's and Snipers.

The bore on the M24, and the bore of a M-16 are greatly different and have vastly different missions.

Just as the oil needs of an F1 car differ from the oil needs of a Ford Tractor.

The ccb shot from a AR/M16 is more subject to bore variations and differences in plating thickness than any influence that might be present from PTFE in CLP.

PTFE and Moly are kept from the bores of my precision rifles as well, and for the reasons mentioned here.

However, PTFE has it's advantages in lesser rifles where the inconsistent friction in the bore means little or nothing.

I see what you are saying, possibly the scope of the question should be better scrutinized.
However, for general use, PTFE in the bore is not an issue.

S-28

Link Posted: 9/5/2004 5:35:14 AM EST

Originally Posted By S-28:
Quietshooter,

Different utility and mission.

The differences pesented in a CCB shot vs. following shots is religion with the sniping community.

Lubricating solids in the bore are a variable that cannot be controlled and hence are avoided by serious DM's and Snipers.

The bore on the M24, and the bore of a M-16 are greatly different and have vastly different missions.

Just as the oil needs of an F1 car differ from the oil needs of a Ford Tractor.

The ccb shot from a AR/M16 is more subject to bore variations and differences in plating thickness than any influence that might be present from PTFE in CLP.

PTFE and Moly are kept from the bores of my precision rifles as well, and for the reasons mentioned here.

However, PTFE has it's advantages in lesser rifles where the inconsistent friction in the bore means little or nothing.

I see what you are saying, possibly the scope of the question should be better scrutinized.
However, for general use, PTFE in the bore is not an issue.

S-28




I agree completely. I do keep my chrome lined AR bores dry, anyway..so it's a moot point for me.
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