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9/22/2017 12:11:25 AM
Posted: 12/16/2005 5:19:20 AM EDT
I have been wanting to purchase a pistol conversion upper for my AR for several years but never could decide between a 9mm and a .45ACP. I have always been partial to the .45 ACP and was planning on purchasing a Suppressor in .45 ACP so I thought a upper in the same caliber would be great since I could also utilize the can. Last year I planned to purchase a upper and did some reseach, mostly on this forum, related to caliber selection. What I found was that most owners of pistol caliber uppers chose the 9mm over the .45 ACP for some unknow reason but I believe it may be due to the availability of surplus mags (stens, Madisons....etc). In the end I did not purchase a upper because of lack of availablity of used units in the Equipment Exchange and long waits from the manufacturer.

Anyways, I was planning on purchasing a upper next year and was wondering should I go with a 9mm or .45 and what are the pros and cons of either.

Thanks for your advice.

Mac
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:42:13 AM EDT
ammo is more expensive than 9mm
mags
platform
parts
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 5:48:41 AM EDT
You can buy what ever you want, don’t think that the majority rules here!
I can tell you why I went with my 9MM instead of a 45.
I own an H&K 45 Match and thought it would be great to have an AR upper in the same caliber...
Then I went looking at all the parts and options, and the worst offender of all... AMMO!
My H&K will shoot all ammo from +P+ to crap with no problems but the cost of 45 ammo is very high!
I did not want to get one more caliber for the collection, but at $12 a box of 100 for Wal-Mart Win White box I could not go wrong.
Since this was going to be a plinking, burping, just fun gun I decided to go with the cheaper of the two ammos.



This was from our last Blastfest here in central Il. I went thru 600 rounds of 9MM from 9:30am to 2:30pm! (6 boxes of 100 rounds at $12 each $72)
Worth every penny!
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 7:26:57 AM EDT
You can also look at the size of the round for another reason. It turned out to be pretty simple to move to 9mm because the head diameter of a 9X19mm round is nearly the same as that of the 5.56mm round. That makes it fairly simple to do a lot of adaptations.
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 8:13:33 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/16/2005 8:15:46 AM EDT by Mr45auto]
I suspect magazines as the primary issue. Fortunately there are options emerging. Cav arms can use the M3 greasegun magazines and MGI is going to offer an M3 magwell for their lower receiver. Hopefully they'll have a .45 barrel/carrier for their upper as well. There is some discussion of a company experimenting with a gas operated .45 upper as well.

As far as going suppressed, most pistol cans are "wet" meaning you use either grease or water as a coolant and that could get tiring with a carbine. I went with a dedicated system on my .45 upper and it's fired dry and quieter than any of the wet cans I've fired.

9mm is more economical, you can buy factory ammo for the cost of loading components for the 45acp. Personally I'm very happy with my .45 setup and if I ever want to shoot medium game it's more up to the task than a subsonic 9mm.

Before suppressing


After
Link Posted: 12/16/2005 10:44:24 AM EDT
Mr45auto Very nice as always!
I agree, If I could justify plicking with a 45 with that many rounds I would have gone with it!
Did I mention that I like your setup? Cav tan always looked good to me.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 4:13:47 AM EDT
If I could have a standard Colt type upper (Not Oly) I would have one.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 5:30:12 AM EDT
Finaly took some pictures of mine!






Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:26:47 AM EDT


I would say the main issue was magazines. The AR mag well is only so wide and only certain mags fit in there. Oly's solution was to hack the GG mag, but that came to an end when the ban (1994) came a long and the eventual rulings that mags HAD to work in the orignal weopon. Gone were the days of modifing mags.... so.... people starting hacking up lowers to work w/ Tommy mags and GG mags. Unfortunately, that defeats the purpose of having a lower and just switching uppers when the lower is modified (seen a few crop up in pics here and there).

People started becoming more "novel". The replacable mag well idea, or redesigning the gun started to happen. Most people were probobly thinking the 1994 ban would be renewed and started working under that assumption.

So the reason why is a combination of- mags, platforms to use mags and the eventual price of the unit.
Link Posted: 12/17/2005 10:47:04 AM EDT
The 9mm gets much more velocity out of a 16" barrel than a handgun-length barrel. The .45 does not. That's another reason a 9mm AR makes more sense than a .45 AR.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 8:30:17 AM EDT
9mm has a flatter trajectory than .45. Both are rainbows compared to 5.56 but:

.45 ACP (230 gr) drop at 50 yards is: 1.6" 100 yards is 6.8"
9mmx19 (115 gr) " .9" 3.9"

They get worse after 100 yards. I pulled the numbers from Remington's website. BSW
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 4:49:00 PM EDT
I made a .45 GAP upper receiver using a Thompson 16" barrel milled to take .45 GAP. It uses Sten mags and a KKF magwell block. Pictures are in the Build It Yourself forum. I post more once I get some velocity and accuracy testing done.

It allows me to use a .45 bullet with 9mm mags that fit a standard lower.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:11:33 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:
I made a .45 GAP upper receiver using a Thompson 16" barrel milled to take .45 GAP. It uses Sten mags and a KKF magwell block. Pictures are in the Build It Yourself forum. I post more once I get some velocity and accuracy testing done.

It allows me to use a .45 bullet with 9mm mags that fit a standard lower.



Very innovative, I hope your project goes well. If I didnt already have lots of other .45acp firearms I might have considered trying something like that. I'd hate to mix up my brass tho, the damned .40 cases are hard enough to weed out.
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:21:14 PM EDT
I've had great luck with mine.

I reload, so .45 ammo is cheap. I haven't had to buy brass in ages.

Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:34:58 PM EDT
For any who havent, you can reconfigure your pistol caliber setup to a midlength just to be different. There's no gas port/tube to worry about so you can put your FSB wherever you want. If you notice in my photo above the unsuppressed version is a bit longer than usual
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 10:35:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/18/2005 10:36:32 PM EDT by tweeter]
Oly doesn't have a very popular following, that's why.

ETA: nobody likes forcing cones?
Link Posted: 12/18/2005 11:29:44 PM EDT

Oly doesn't have a very popular following, that's why.

ETA: nobody likes forcing cones?



Oly is also the only game in town for .45 uppers unless you go custom like I had to. So, if you don't like Oly, there is no other choice.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:14:12 AM EDT
I'm hoping MGI offers something for their modular upper/lower setup. That should get the ball rolling on other makers building .45s
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:20:19 AM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:
For any who havent, you can reconfigure your pistol caliber setup to a midlength just to be different. There's no gas port/tube to worry about so you can put your FSB wherever you want. If you notice in my photo above the unsuppressed version is a bit longer than usual




I'm assuming this requires redrilling for the FSB pins?

Now that i found out SBR's are legal for hunting in WI, I'm seriously following your lead there. Otherwise i woudl prolly move the FSB up a bit. But if i SBR it right away, there's no point.
Link Posted: 12/19/2005 1:25:56 AM EDT
You can also use a different FSB, the one pictured is an armalite clamp on. The other alternative is to tap and setscrew the hole under the sling swivel.

If you can afford it I highly reccomend the SRT integral suppressor. Even if it's 9mm you'll wind up with a super quiet rig that's even more fun to shoot. Every time I look at it I cant help but smile.
Link Posted: 12/20/2005 7:25:58 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2005 4:24:58 AM EDT
Here is my 45 with a rifle length tube. I've got a few GG mags, I'm just waiting for someone to start building a dedicated lower. BTW There is nothing wrong with Oly.

Link Posted: 12/23/2005 4:49:27 PM EDT
I've had an OLYC PCR45 for several years now. Have a half a dozen UZI 15 rd mags for it. When I got it, believe OLY was the only .45 ACP game in town (other than custom). Have several .45 ACP pistols, and reload a LOT, so ammo cost is not too much on an issue. Have had zero problems with the OLY, and accuracy is good. If I were doing it over again, I'd certainly consider the CAV Arms lower, only because of the mag issues. IMHO, .45 ACP is the only way to go.
Link Posted: 12/24/2005 11:15:46 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 9:28:11 AM EDT

Originally Posted By joe1972:
You can buy what ever you want, don’t think that the majority rules here!
I can tell you why I went with my 9MM instead of a 45.
I own an H&K 45 Match and thought it would be great to have an AR upper in the same caliber...
Then I went looking at all the parts and options, and the worst offender of all... AMMO!
My H&K will shoot all ammo from +P+ to crap with no problems but the cost of 45 ammo is very high!
I did not want to get one more caliber for the collection, but at $12 a box of 100 for Wal-Mart Win White box I could not go wrong.
Since this was going to be a plinking, burping, just fun gun I decided to go with the cheaper of the two ammos.

i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/joe1972/DSCN0686.jpg

This was from our last Blastfest here in central Il. I went thru 600 rounds of 9MM from 9:30am to 2:30pm! (6 boxes of 100 rounds at $12 each $72)
Worth every penny!


Where are you there in Central Il? I'm originally from Decatur.

Back on topic, I think ammo price is the final consideration as most folks don't depend on these guns for personal protection.
Link Posted: 12/27/2005 11:36:43 AM EDT

Originally Posted By ryann:

Originally Posted By joe1972:
You can buy what ever you want, don’t think that the majority rules here!
I can tell you why I went with my 9MM instead of a 45.
I own an H&K 45 Match and thought it would be great to have an AR upper in the same caliber...
Then I went looking at all the parts and options, and the worst offender of all... AMMO!
My H&K will shoot all ammo from +P+ to crap with no problems but the cost of 45 ammo is very high!
I did not want to get one more caliber for the collection, but at $12 a box of 100 for Wal-Mart Win White box I could not go wrong.
Since this was going to be a plinking, burping, just fun gun I decided to go with the cheaper of the two ammos.

i28.photobucket.com/albums/c223/joe1972/DSCN0686.jpg

This was from our last Blastfest here in central Il. I went thru 600 rounds of 9MM from 9:30am to 2:30pm! (6 boxes of 100 rounds at $12 each $72)
Worth every penny!


Where are you there in Central Il? I'm originally from Decatur.

Back on topic, I think ammo price is the final consideration as most folks don't depend on these guns for personal protection.



Very close to COOK COUNTY, 294 and Ogden is close to me, I was just in Dallas early this month, very nice, I loved WHATABURGER!
Link Posted: 12/28/2005 4:36:14 PM EDT
Cook county ain't Central Illinois!
That damn Whataburger's as addicting as crack, ain't it?
Link Posted: 12/29/2005 8:27:51 AM EDT
What about LaFrance Specialties M16K .45? Are these still made? I like the idea behind these quite a bit, they use the BHO device with a mixture of Colt/proprietry system. As well Tommy mags are available as 20 rounders which just looks more balanced to my eye. I'm sure if you knew a talented CNC machinist they could build a nice lower (albeit, expensive) very similar to it. Can a Colt 9mm bolt be opened up to .45?
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 3:44:41 PM EDT

Originally Posted By DVDTracker:
www.lifelibertyetc.com/files/video/TV_XMAS_2005/TV_XMAS_2005_Cav45ARBumpfire.wmv



Dude! Howd you do that??

V/R
Pinto
Link Posted: 12/31/2005 5:39:39 PM EDT

Originally Posted By MacAttack:
I have been wanting to purchase a pistol conversion upper for my AR for several years but never could decide between a 9mm and a .45ACP. I have always been partial to the .45 ACP and was planning on purchasing a Suppressor in .45 ACP so I thought a upper in the same caliber would be great since I could also utilize the can. Last year I planned to purchase a upper and did some reseach, mostly on this forum, related to caliber selection. What I found was that most owners of pistol caliber uppers chose the 9mm over the .45 ACP for some unknow reason but I believe it may be due to the availability of surplus mags (stens, Madisons....etc). In the end I did not purchase a upper because of lack of availablity of used units in the Equipment Exchange and long waits from the manufacturer.

Anyways, I was planning on purchasing a upper next year and was wondering should I go with a 9mm or .45 and what are the pros and cons of either.

Thanks for your advice.

Mac



9mm was originally intended as a carbine caliber (pre-Luger)....

It's just a better round for that sort of application, and actually improves it's performance incredibly when fired from rifle-length barrels......
Link Posted: 1/1/2006 8:55:42 AM EDT
I had an Oly 45 upper (which had been on 2 DPMS lowers, a preban Eagle and a Cavs Mk1 later converted to Mk2).
It was flawless in reliability and very accurate with a compact ACOG. I had the barrel turned down and had it threaded for my Gemtech SOS45, which worked great on it.
I ended up selling it and geting a Colt 9mm, because;
1) The Colt is nicely done up with the intent of being a 9mm. The Oly systems work great, but frankly are obviously converted 223 parts. (I was thinking of the Oly Glock Gun too, but that looks horrible IMO.)
2) BHO
3) Mags. Oly is in no rush to get high caps again, so there's a bunch of 10 rounders they want to get rid of. It also seems that since the 45 is less popular, they're not really advancing it, so it will always be less popular.

I was thinking of eventually getting another upper to use on my SBR in 45, but since I got the thread adapter for my SOS45 can to work on the 9mm threads, it wouldn't really gain me anything. Instead I'll probably SBR my Colt 9mm.

I can't understand why Oly has such heavy barrels for their pistol carbines. Their 9mm is twice as thick as the Colt's, if not more.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 1:27:40 PM EDT
http://bsumner.photosite.com/45CaliberARProject/Picture_001.html
To me there is only one question Why is the 45 not more popular? The 45 has more knock down power than the 9mm. This is especially evident during some of the matches I've been to where the steel pates have been exceptionally hard to knock down. Only the 45's had the poop behind them to knock the plates down with authority. There are enough coversions out there now that accept GG mags and at least one dedicated lower the 9mm AR's dominance in the matches may not be so exclusive.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:48:52 PM EDT

There are enough coversions out there now that accept GG mags and at least one dedicated lower the 9mm AR's dominance in the matches may not be so exclusive


There is only 1 conversion on the market that takes grease gun mags, Cav Arms MKII lower. They say they have one on the back burner in aluminum.

Justin at CNC Gunsmithing and myself have come up with a prototype that is a dedicated .45 lower using GG mags, that we are trying to bring to market as we speak. The mags are still the big drawback. I made an upper in .45 GAP but it uses Sten mags and the capacity is limited to 16-17 rounds, so still not a great answer.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 6:49:44 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:01:18 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

There are enough coversions out there now that accept GG mags and at least one dedicated lower the 9mm AR's dominance in the matches may not be so exclusive


There is only 1 conversion on the market that takes grease gun mags, Cav Arms MKII lower. They say they have one on the back burner in aluminum.

Justin at CNC Gunsmithing and myself have come up with a prototype that is a dedicated .45 lower using GG mags, that we are trying to bring to market as we speak. The mags are still the big drawback. I made an upper in .45 GAP but it uses Sten mags and the capacity is limited to 16-17 rounds, so still not a great answer.



Dont forget MGI with their modular magwell setup. There will be M16, AK, and M3 magwells used with it.
Link Posted: 1/14/2006 7:04:51 PM EDT
I went with 9mm mainly because it takes the same ammo as my Sig. It's nice to have only two cartridges to stockpile for SHTF.

9mm and 7.62x39.

Roy
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 11:52:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/15/2006 11:53:48 AM EDT by TANGOCHASER]

Dont forget MGI with their modular magwell setup. There will be M16, AK, and M3 magwells used with it.


It's not on the market yet and the cost is yet to be determined. The M3 mag part will be marketed after the 5.56 and the 7.62x39.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 2:10:08 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

Dont forget MGI with their modular magwell setup. There will be M16, AK, and M3 magwells used with it.


It's not on the market yet and the cost is yet to be determined. The M3 mag part will be marketed after the 5.56 and the 7.62x39.



Check the EE


The 45 magwell isnt ready yet but the AR/AK magwell setup is out right now.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 6:43:01 PM EDT
$500 for a complete MGI modular lower and another $150 for each additional magwell. OUCH!. I still think it's a great product a guys gona have to save up for that one.
Link Posted: 1/15/2006 10:09:31 PM EDT

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:
$500 for a complete MGI modular lower and another $150 for each additional magwell. OUCH!. I still think it's a great product a guys gona have to save up for that one.



I think it's worth it if you're going to go the SBR route. One lower, multi caliber More appropriately one tax multiple SBRs
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 4:41:48 AM EDT


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:
$500 for a complete MGI modular lower and another $150 for each additional magwell. OUCH!. I still think it's a great product a guys gona have to save up for that one.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------




I think it's worth it if you're going to go the SBR route. One lower, multi caliber More appropriately one tax multiple SBRs



Yeah. Good point. I plan to go SBR in the near future. I might look into this. I will let someone else buy one and do the field testing before I decide.
Link Posted: 1/16/2006 6:37:24 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Mr45auto:

Originally Posted By TANGOCHASER:

Dont forget MGI with their modular magwell setup. There will be M16, AK, and M3 magwells used with it.


It's not on the market yet and the cost is yet to be determined. The M3 mag part will be marketed after the 5.56 and the 7.62x39.



Check the EE


The 45 magwell isnt ready yet but the AR/AK magwell setup is out right now.



45 mag well..... must have not seen the post yet.

Its too bad they are all being sold w/ the stocks. I'd love one as a pistol.

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