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Posted: 5/11/2004 10:01:56 AM EST
Why does everyone want their TA31 series ACOGS back as far as they can get them? In nearly all the pictures I have seen, most of them are in the second or third notch forward on the flat top. Or in other words, as far back as they can get them with BUIS. The #40-#19S-TA31 series ACOG is another combo I see on here pretty often and maybe 85% of the people have the ACOG moved back right against the #40.

I have had a TA31F for maybe 2 months now. I haven't had the money to put as many rounds through that rifle as I would have liked. With fuel prices the way they are, I have hardly had enough money to keep my car going. But I have shot it enough to know that with the M93A stock set on P4, it is fast. But for precise aiming, the ACOG was too close to my eye. Much too close to go nose to charging handle. Sometimes I would pull the stock out to P6 if I was shooting at a longer distance. Before I got my AR, I never did anything like nose-charging handle. But after I did get my AR, I grew to appreciate it for its repeatable cheek weld. When I couldn't do nose to charging handle with the ACOG, I felt like I couldn't get a very repeatable cheek weld.

So I moved the TA31F/TA51 mounted ACOG all the way up to the very front of the receiver. Now when I pick the gun up and just lay my head over on the stock, the field of view is decreased enough that BAC is very easy and natural. When I take more of a general stance which is less open, my head naturally moves up closer to the scope to where I can see maybe 85% of the field of view, maybe more. It is a very usable amount. When I turn my body nearly 90 degrees for offhand accuracy, I can easily go nose-to-charging handle and see 100% field of view.

Being right-handed and left eye dominant, I shoot from the left shoulder. I have the snap hook loop for the magpul stock on the right side. So it is nose-charging handle and lip touching the snap hook loop. Very consistent and repeatable. I can just keep my stock at P4 and is is very comfortable in all shooting positions.

The only person I have ever seen with a forward mounted TA31 series is KevinB. So why exactly does everyone mount their ACOGs to the rear? There has to be some reason. I love this setup, not that I hated it before, it just seems a little more natural now.

Anyone? NewARguy? You have like every model of ACOG ever made so maybe you could tell me something. Or do I just have really weird preferences or short arms and a long neck?
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 11:27:13 AM EST
Eye relief. You could use it mounted further forward, but not if you want to see the entire sight picture.
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 11:35:42 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 1:55:27 PM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:
Eye relief is the correct answer. Mine is on a 20" gun with an A1 stock. On a carbine, I wouldnt have to worry about it so much.



I knew that would be the first answer. But I can get the full view if I do nose to charging handle. It BACs very easily. Probably because the view is so much smaller. I guess the question is whether a person needs the full field of view when they just lay their head over on the side of the stock, rather than doing nose to charging handle.

When I had the ACOG back as close as I could get it, I thought that it was easier to BAC when I pulled my head back further on the stock. But that felt unnatural. It feels more unnatural to pull my head back to BAC than it does to stretch my neck forward a little bit to use the full view. Or am I using it wrong?
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 2:47:45 PM EST
Maybe you got a giraff's neck, mine can't reach that far
I shoulder my rifle, and I'd like my head stay where it is, that'd be the natural position for me. With a short eye relief scope, a telescopic stock is great, I use the 2nd position (4th being fully extended) when shooting with the TA01NSN and TA31. With the TA11, fully extended
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 4:03:43 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 9:15:56 PM EST
OMG!!! Two others who don't shoot NTCH!??!?!? I thought I was the only one! It's part of why I am partial to the TA-11. I like to hang back on the stock with optics. Only the small peep draws me closer, but still not NTCH. Maybe my nose isn't long enough...
Link Posted: 5/11/2004 11:29:39 PM EST
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 2:56:22 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 5:53:17 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 5:56:22 AM EST by 123whisper]
So I guess I need to get a little more time with this ACOG. P4 is definately the best general stock position. Putting the ACOG all the way up on the receiver is too far forward; I do have to stretch my neck. The first few positions at the back bump my noggin. I am guessing somewhere in the middle is where I will end up. Somewhere that I don't have to stretch my neck to end up with the full field. There is a sweet spot somewhere, just for me it isn't as far back as for some of you.

I guess it is just one of those many things that is personal preference.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:45:35 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By 123whisper:
But I can get the full view if I do nose to charging handle.



I have no neck and all shoulders, so Ive never shot NTCH.




Link Posted: 5/12/2004 11:25:10 AM EST

Originally Posted By AK_Mike:
OMG!!! Two others who don't shoot NTCH!??!?!? I thought I was the only one! It's part of why I am partial to the TA-11. I like to hang back on the stock with optics. Only the small peep draws me closer, but still not NTCH. Maybe my nose isn't long enough...


Make that three.
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 1:53:00 PM EST
I put mine one notch ahead of the BUIS. I run my Vltor one notch in from full out (close to P4 on a Magpul) With the tip of my average nose touching the CH I get full FOV. By pulling back slightly, I get the BAC to work great. But that's just me...
Link Posted: 5/12/2004 4:26:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 4:30:21 PM EST by CJan_NH]

Originally Posted By bsbg:
I put mine one notch ahead of the BUIS. I run my Vltor one notch in from full out (close to P4 on a Magpul) With the tip of my average nose touching the CH I get full FOV. By pulling back slightly, I get the BAC to work great. But that's just me...


I run mine in the same position: P4 on the M93 and one notch ahead of the BUIS.

Link Posted: 5/12/2004 8:41:28 PM EST
[Last Edit: 5/12/2004 8:49:02 PM EST by Green0]
The correct answer is because none of the mounts allow us to mount them any further to the rear : ) HAHA

Honestly trijicon, I know a wide FOV is great, but another inch of eye relief would be awesome. Even a half inch.

Think about those poor bastards in the military issued M-14's and body armor, who can't even shoulder the rifle because the stock is too long and then have to fire with their eye an inch away from the eyebell. (looks like a black eye waiting to happen to me.) I know M-14's have low recoil for a 308 but they still have a pretty strong push.


When I have my eye relief right on my TAO1 my nose is about 1/2inch past the charging handle. I shoot NTCH with irons, it's the only way to get any reliable POI.

Put yourself on a computor once and shoot 3-3-shot groups lowering the rifle and re-shouldering with each shot group; you will have 3 seperate points of impact for your three groups if you don't shoot NTCH.

If you do, you will have one group (one POI with 9 holes in it.) Every time you change the focal length with relation to the rear sight, the point of impact changes slightly, I don't know why but it does.

You can do it with paper, but with a computor (weaponeer) the effect is more dramatic (you are standing in the same spot and you demonstrate it to yourself in about 45seconds.), no walking to targets etc. (besides the computor even marks the different shot groups like a range officer with different colored "markers"
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:45:50 AM EST

Originally Posted By Green0:
The correct answer is because none of the mounts allow us to mount them any further to the rear : ) HAHA

Honestly trijicon, I know a wide FOV is great, but another inch of eye relief would be awesome. Even a half inch.

Think about those poor bastards in the military issued M-14's and body armor, who can't even shoulder the rifle because the stock is too long and then have to fire with their eye an inch away from the eyebell. (looks like a black eye waiting to happen to me.) I know M-14's have low recoil for a 308 but they still have a pretty strong push.


When I have my eye relief right on my TAO1 my nose is about 1/2inch past the charging handle. I shoot NTCH with irons, it's the only way to get any reliable POI.

Put yourself on a computor once and shoot 3-3-shot groups lowering the rifle and re-shouldering with each shot group; you will have 3 seperate points of impact for your three groups if you don't shoot NTCH.

If you do, you will have one group (one POI with 9 holes in it.) Every time you change the focal length with relation to the rear sight, the point of impact changes slightly, I don't know why but it does.

You can do it with paper, but with a computor (weaponeer) the effect is more dramatic (you are standing in the same spot and you demonstrate it to yourself in about 45seconds.), no walking to targets etc. (besides the computor even marks the different shot groups like a range officer with different colored "markers"



Does consistent cheek weld come into play with optics too?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:28:38 AM EST
[Last Edit: 5/13/2004 6:32:45 AM EST by Lumpy196]
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 6:48:00 AM EST

Originally Posted By Lumpy196:

Originally Posted By 123whisper:
Does consistent cheek weld come into play with optics too?



It usually does for precision work, especially with optics, but only if you are worried about shooting pretty little groups in a fixed target, which I rarely do. Im more of a minute-of-head and chest kinda guy with either me or the target moving, which is the type of scenario the BAC ACOG is designed to exceed in.



So, not to the extent that it does with irons, but if I want to, I can put a rubber band on my stock to put my cheek on?

Never could really get moving and shooting at the same time. Maybe I am expecting too much. Moving too fast or something.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 8:28:15 AM EST

So, not to the extent that it does with irons, but if I want to, I can put a rubber band on my stock to put my cheek on?

If you want. That would help you remember your cheekweld.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 11:04:37 AM EST

Originally Posted By Green0:
Put yourself on a computor once and shoot 3-3-shot groups lowering the rifle and re-shouldering with each shot group; you will have 3 seperate points of impact for your three groups if you don't shoot NTCH.

If you do, you will have one group (one POI with 9 holes in it.) Every time you change the focal length with relation to the rear sight, the point of impact changes slightly, I don't know why but it does.

You can do it with paper, but with a computor (weaponeer) the effect is more dramatic (you are standing in the same spot and you demonstrate it to yourself in about 45seconds.), no walking to targets etc. (besides the computor even marks the different shot groups like a range officer with different colored "markers"



Off thread but I can't resist.

This does not happen to me. I use the same shooting position each time. This means I don't have to change my natural shooting position just for the AR, it's the same for bolt guns and other semiautomatic rifles. Since I use the same position each and every time, I am consistent. Being farther away from the peep, it's easier for me to index the front sight. The front sight hood wings are closer to the rear ring so I can tell more precisely if the sights are in alignment.

Honestly, if one had to shoot NTCH, what do you all do when you shoot any other firearm? What do you do when you shoot a pistol, shotgun, or bolt rifle with an optic? My body is trained, I don't need something touching my nose to tell me I am in the same position, and if it isn't actually touching, I don't see how it's any different hanging 1/2" back or 3" back. I look for the same sight picture each time and it's easy to tell if my head is not in the correct position because of it. Perhaps I do this because I have so many rifles and training my body to be consistent is easier than shooting in different positions for each weapons platform. My head is in the same place whether shooting an AR, M1A1, FN FAL, MP5, Mini-14, Rem700, SR-25/AR-10, AK-47 and many, many others. However, the sacrifice I must make is then when buying optics - eye relief is one of the most important factors to me. Red dot's eliminate all the problems.

Hey, how come all I am hearing right now are crickets? Is this thing on?
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 11:15:44 AM EST
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:24:33 PM EST

Originally Posted By AK_Mike:

Originally Posted By Green0:
Put yourself on a computor once and shoot 3-3-shot groups lowering the rifle and re-shouldering with each shot group; you will have 3 seperate points of impact for your three groups if you don't shoot NTCH.

If you do, you will have one group (one POI with 9 holes in it.) Every time you change the focal length with relation to the rear sight, the point of impact changes slightly, I don't know why but it does.

You can do it with paper, but with a computor (weaponeer) the effect is more dramatic (you are standing in the same spot and you demonstrate it to yourself in about 45seconds.), no walking to targets etc. (besides the computor even marks the different shot groups like a range officer with different colored "markers"



Off thread but I can't resist.

This does not happen to me. I use the same shooting position each time. This means I don't have to change my natural shooting position just for the AR, it's the same for bolt guns and other semiautomatic rifles. Since I use the same position each and every time, I am consistent. Being farther away from the peep, it's easier for me to index the front sight. The front sight hood wings are closer to the rear ring so I can tell more precisely if the sights are in alignment.

Honestly, if one had to shoot NTCH, what do you all do when you shoot any other firearm? What do you do when you shoot a pistol, shotgun, or bolt rifle with an optic? My body is trained, I don't need something touching my nose to tell me I am in the same position, and if it isn't actually touching, I don't see how it's any different hanging 1/2" back or 3" back. I look for the same sight picture each time and it's easy to tell if my head is not in the correct position because of it. Perhaps I do this because I have so many rifles and training my body to be consistent is easier than shooting in different positions for each weapons platform. My head is in the same place whether shooting an AR, M1A1, FN FAL, MP5, Mini-14, Rem700, SR-25/AR-10, AK-47 and many, many others. However, the sacrifice I must make is then when buying optics - eye relief is one of the most important factors to me. Red dot's eliminate all the problems.

Hey, how come all I am hearing right now are crickets? Is this thing on?



No, its on. I never did it when I shot smallbore rifle. But I never made expert either. Came pretty close, but never did. Maybe that is why. Maybe my head wasn't in the same position each time. I just always thought after I got my AR and heard of this NTCH, it was one thing that I could use to eliminate a variable. The name of the game is the same. The name of the game is the same.

I don't do NTCH when I am just playing around, and I still hit things. I don't know why it would make a difference in irons or optics really, I mean if everything is still concentric.

I know what you are saying.


But I still have no idea how you can put your head back so far as to be off the buffer tube on a Magpul stock I think you must have long arms and a short neck. Or maybe you are just broken I don't know.

Having good trigger control is much more important probably.
Link Posted: 5/13/2004 5:30:09 PM EST

Originally Posted By AK_Mike:

Originally Posted By Green0:
Put yourself on a computor once and shoot 3-3-shot groups lowering the rifle and re-shouldering with each shot group; you will have 3 seperate points of impact for your three groups if you don't shoot NTCH.

If you do, you will have one group (one POI with 9 holes in it.) Every time you change the focal length with relation to the rear sight, the point of impact changes slightly, I don't know why but it does.

You can do it with paper, but with a computor (weaponeer) the effect is more dramatic (you are standing in the same spot and you demonstrate it to yourself in about 45seconds.), no walking to targets etc. (besides the computor even marks the different shot groups like a range officer with different colored "markers"



Off thread but I can't resist.

This does not happen to me. I use the same shooting position each time. This means I don't have to change my natural shooting position just for the AR, it's the same for bolt guns and other semiautomatic rifles. Since I use the same position each and every time, I am consistent. Being farther away from the peep, it's easier for me to index the front sight. The front sight hood wings are closer to the rear ring so I can tell more precisely if the sights are in alignment.

Honestly, if one had to shoot NTCH, what do you all do when you shoot any other firearm? What do you do when you shoot a pistol, shotgun, or bolt rifle with an optic? My body is trained, I don't need something touching my nose to tell me I am in the same position, and if it isn't actually touching, I don't see how it's any different hanging 1/2" back or 3" back. I look for the same sight picture each time and it's easy to tell if my head is not in the correct position because of it. Perhaps I do this because I have so many rifles and training my body to be consistent is easier than shooting in different positions for each weapons platform. My head is in the same place whether shooting an AR, M1A1, FN FAL, MP5, Mini-14, Rem700, SR-25/AR-10, AK-47 and many, many others. However, the sacrifice I must make is then when buying optics - eye relief is one of the most important factors to me. Red dot's eliminate all the problems.

Hey, how come all I am hearing right now are crickets? Is this thing on?



No, its on. I never did it when I shot smallbore rifle. But I never made expert either. Came pretty close, but never did. Maybe that is why. Maybe my head wasn't in the same position each time. I just always thought after I got my AR and heard of this NTCH, it was one thing that I could use to eliminate a variable. The name of the game is the same. The name of the game is the same.

I don't do NTCH when I am just playing around, and I still hit things. I don't know why it would make a difference in irons or optics really, I mean if everything is still concentric.

I know what you are saying.


But I still have no idea how you can put your head back so far as to be off the buffer tube on a Magpul stock I think you must have long arms and a short neck. Or maybe you are just broken I don't know.

Having good trigger control is much more important probably.

Pulled my BUIS off, and went out side and put the ACOG in every position from front to rear. You want to guess where I ended up liking it best? The very middle. Which is exactly were it was before. Same amount of space left in front of the mount as there is behind it.

When I stop after BAC, I still have plenty field of view so that I can tell what I am looking at and make good target judgement and see the area around the target and then make good shot placement. The middle, not to hot, not to cold, just right.
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