About 7 or 8 months ago I started looking into getting an AR.  I read on a few sites (including some on this one), and came to the decision that when buying I should stick to the "ABCDR's". I was under the impression that any of these would be a good choice. In fact I had read and heard from a few guys at the gym that DPMS was "awesome" for the money. I was under the impression that Olympic and Vulcan were brands to be avoided.

Fast foward to now...  I bought a DPMS off a LEO about two months ago, and I can't really find anything wrong with it.  However, since that time I have read more and more "stay away from DPMS" posts/replies.  I was just wondering what specifically is wrong with DPMS.

So far I have had no probs. Mine does have a few features that aren't DPMS standard (chrome lined and I think titanium BC) *BC is all silvery and carbon comes right off of it. I'm happy with mine so far, and I suppose that's what matters.  Just wondering why DPMS suddenly became "junk" after I bought one.

[kool-aid mode] It does not have A pretty pony on the side. [/kool-aid mode]

"I was just wondering what specifically is wrong with DPMS."

I've bought a number of DPMS parts. Most were OK. A stripped lower and a lower parts set were out of spec on separate occasions. Makes one leery.

I have a DPMS lower and CMMG upper. I'm pretty sure the upper or at least parts of it are DPMS because CMMG used DPMS parts at the time. It has been flawless so far.

Their bolts have a rep for high failure rates, which is my actual experience as well.

Many have reported their cast small parts failing.

I have only had one DPMS part fail - a bolt catch.  Other than that, they seem fine.  Not top tier, but not Hesse either.

Yeah, both of my Olympic rifles suck so bad, I am building a third now! hinking.gif Sorry, I don't subscribe.

Quoted: Yeah, both of my Olympic rifles suck so bad, I am building a third now! Sorry, I don't subscribe.

SAY IT LOUD, SAY IT PROUD, BROTHER!

Quoted: Yeah, both of my Olympic rifles suck so bad, I am building a third now! Sorry, I don't subscribe.

I don't mean to say that Olympic sucks.  Just repeating what I read before I bought my rifle.  The way you feel about that is precisely how I feel about the DPMS thing.

I have never handled an Olympic and cannot comment about their quality from personal experience.

The GREAT OLYARMS:

Quoted: I USED TO SELL OLYMPICS.   I also stock Colts, BM, RRA, and AR.   Wanna know what the #1 most repaired AR15 in my shop is?  OLYMPIC.   I don't sell them anymore.   Wanna know what the most repaired AR15 in my store is now?  Still the OLYMPIC.   Wanna know what I've had to send Olys back for?  You name it.   Wanna know how hard it is to get repair parts/replacement parts/financial reimbursement for shipping NEW guns back to OLY for warranty work as a gun dealer?  IMPOSSIBLE!!!!!! Several distributors have even stopped carrying Olympic rifles because of the high reject rate once they get to the dealers. They might, sometimes, take care of the individual owner, but as a dealer, I believe that they have a black list, and if you're on it, you're screwed.   I've actually had OLY on the phone with a customer in my shop, and they have actually told the guy that there was nothing wrong, and if he shipped it back, they would not fix it.  The rifle had a broken bolt.  Sheared off 2 lugs, broke at the cam pin hole, and damaged the bolt carrier. I fixed it, with BM parts that were available to me at the time.  I sent the bill to OLY, never got a response.  Sold the debt off to a collection agency, along with all the other repairs that I had to do on OLY guns.  Now, if an OLY comes in for repair, I advise the individual that it will cost them an open ended amount and get them to sign the estimate before I'll even touch it. SHOT show 2002 I took them a box of the parts that I had replaced from their guns that I could not get reimbursement for. I'll guarntee I've owned/handled/shot more OLYs since 1999 than you ever will, unless you work at Oly or a gun store. There is, at best 15% profit in retail guns.  Olys eat up my 15% on repair parts/shipping/gunsmith time almost as soon as they get unpacked.  No more! Now, about their issues, still "Pretty sure they have been resolved by now" ????? Or is my post worthless, too? Tom

i have never had a dpms rifle but i have bought a bolt and lpks and they suck



really bad craftsmanship and makes you kinda hesitate to use them.

I have 3 DPMS lowers.  I bought them all stipped, and have no DPMS parts other than them.  When I put all the internals in, everything fit fine, the mags drop free, I've had no problems at all.

In other words, I'll probably buy more DPMS stripped lowers.  Especially since the local place has them for $99.

forgot to mention i like the dpms lowers


fit and finish was great for me along with the price i got them for but all have bushmaster lpk's in them

I think their uppers, lowers, and barrels are fine.  I also think their general assembly  of components is fine (I have a dpms upper).  However, I'm beginning to question the quality of some small components such as firing pin retainer (soft enough to bend by hand), and front sight post (poorly machined, soft).  Its a shame the seem to cut corners on the small stuff, because functionally I couldn't be happier with this upper.  

Related question:  Have the bolt failures been the bolts themselves or the carriers?

Quoted: I think their uppers, lowers, and barrels are fine.  I also think their general assembly  of components is fine (I have a dpms upper).  However, I'm beginning to question the quality of some small components such as firing pin retainer (soft enough to bend by hand), and front sight post (poorly machined, soft).  Its a shame the seem to cut corners on the small stuff, because functionally I couldn't be happier with this upper.   Related question:  Have the bolt failures been the bolts themselves or the carriers?

i had problems with the bolts themselves

Quoted: The GREAT OLYARMS: Quoted: ..... ...... Tom  hr

Thanks for the old story, but my subscription still hasn't been sent it, Brother.

DPMS lower on my Model 1 Sales 20" A3 kit.

 Never a problem with either one.

Maybe I'm just lucky. Like I have own 10 different Springfield scopes and never had a problem.

Ive personally handled two DPMS bolts that cracked at the cam pin hole in WELL under 1000 rounds.

Quoted: Their bolts have a rep for high failure rates, which is my actual experience as well.

I am not at all happy with DPMS parts and will not ever but them.. Free shipping or not.

Quoted: Quoted: The GREAT OLYARMS: Quoted: ..... ...... Tom   Thanks for the old story, but my subscription still hasn't been sent it, Brother.

Oh!  This is old?  You must have the new GOOD  Olympic Arms Products!

DPMS is great quality.

LEO and Military Contractors use them, as do civilians for defense, and all the way to competition shooters.

Everything on my rifles is DPMS except some of the specialty parts.

Alot of people here say that DPMS bolts break and the cam pin, well I guess that there is always a lemon
in the bunch but should not get the reputation that the whole companies products are inferior to others.
I spend alot of time here and hear about other failures from other companys far more than DPMS.
The only repetitive issue about DPMS is there bolts, I have 12,000rds on my M4gery and now 4,000rds
on my CAR15............when their bolts break...............I will say........"Damn, finally!"

Quoted: ...Military Contractors use them, ...

Please provide documentation showing FN and/or Colt uses DPMS products.

While doing that please ask DPMS why they put a match .223 chamber on their M4 type carbines.

A quote from Pat Rogers taken from TF:

Don't kill the messenger. This is FYI, and i am not interested in hearing how well your DPMS gun runs. Last year during a carbine class we had 2 DPMS Bolts break in half at the cam pin hole on consecutive days (believe it or not, guns owned by a husband and wife). One of the guns never ran right in 2 classes, the other ran mostly OK. Gunsmith stated that chamber was very tight causing extraction problems when hot. DPMS ststed that all their bbls had "Match" chambers (why you would want that in a 14.5" M4 bbl is beyond me). When we notified DPMS of the broken bolts, they stated that it must be the ammo. We sent the bolts to them but i never heard back. I just received a series of pictures from a trusted friend of another broken DPMS bolt from a PD. This was one of 20 DPMS Panthers, two had broken bolts- 1 at 1000 rds, one at 300rds. The PD says they had similar problems with 4 DPMS carbines, all have been pulled from service. As a side note, Colt Magnetic Particle Tests all bolts for sub surface voids. Just FYI if you use these guns for duty.

I am to interested in DPMS am looking at the 300 through looking at posts about the 308 i find that a lot of people like them they are accurate and the only feed problems are from poor ammo quality so id assume that the AR15s would be of like quality

i have a heavy barrel 20" OLYMPIC  never any trouble bout 800 rnds maybe trouble when i shoot more but no sign of trouble yet

Ill bet if i found every rifle made by each of the manufacturers you would find failures across the board

Not saying i know i have little experience with other manufacturers but U may just have run into a rash of DPMS haters or maybe its DPMS's weak to get slammed

i have a hard time believing that a company would knowingly put out a product that would be used in a life or death situation thats obviously flawed
maybe I'm a little naive but wouldn't they fix flaws in craftsmanship and design if brought to their attention

Quoted: Oh!  This is old?  You must have the new GOOD  Olympic Arms Products!

Buwhahahaha, that's a great twist. I should have thought about that witty comeback before I typed. hy.gif

Nevermind, you have your obvious bias, and I have mine.

Quoted: ... but wouldn't they fix flaws in craftsmanship and design if brought to their attention

I'll bet they would, if your heirs know to send the rifle there to fix the flaw that got you killed....

DPMS and OLY both make some great tack-drivers, I just wouldn't trust them with my life.  Use them to hunt varmints or punch paper, not as duty/defensive arms and you'll have no worries.

DPMS does not put a match chamber on their military profile barrels.  It says so right in the FAQ section on their webpage.  Their heavy profile and stainless barrels are 1/8" twist with a .223 chamber, military profile barrels are chambered in 5.56mm Nato.

My DPMS thoughts
Ameetec lower with a DPMS LPK 100% no issues to report
DPMS lower with a DPMS LPK 100% no issues to report
Colt Match Target with a DPMS hammer 100% no issues to report
Colt Sporter II with a DPMS LPK 100% no issues to report

DPMS bolts may be crap, but I have not had any issues with any other DPMS parts.  

Your mileage may vary...

Quoted: DPMS does not put a match chamber on their military profile barrels.  It says so right in the FAQ section on their webpage.

The fact DPMS admitted to putting match chambers into their medium profile barrels says differently.  They may NOW use the proper chamber, but they didn't for a long time.

Note Armalite had the same issue for a long time - well after they said they were going to change.

I have been building tons of AR's over the last year.  I have over 10 complete uppers sitting in my safe.

Of all my rifles the NICEST finish and quality of any lowers I have are a Colt M4 lower and a DPMS.  Third is Armalite.  People rave over RRA and Stag, I think they suck ass.

Quoted: Quoted: DPMS does not put a match chamber on their military profile barrels.  It says so right in the FAQ section on their webpage. The fact DPMS admitted to putting match chambers into their medium profile barrels says differently.  They may NOW use the proper chamber, but they didn't for a long time. Note Armalite had the same issue for a long time - well after they said they were going to change.

I think you're right about them using .223 chambers in the past, I just looked at some older posts.  Mine was made in late 2004, and it has the 5.56mm chamber.  I don't have any idea why someone would want a military profile barrel chambered in .223, other than maybe DCM types.

To each his own . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
Facts:
Most Cast parts are inferior to Forged parts
Manufactures cast small parts as it is cost efficient.  Passes the savings on to us so to speak.

When a manufacturer makes a mistake. Its not normally one or two as they mass produce instead of changeing tooling every 15 min. They will make 1 specific part for several days till the right amount is made and then focus on a new part.

So 1 lemon is common but so is 10000 lemons if the wrong person is at work that day.

Customer service should be stellar . . . . . . . . as there is no compromise there.
If something is broken because of substandard parts or materials or even engineering then they normally are aware and will do everything in their power to make things right.

If they do not then they end up like Todd Baily . . . . . . . . . . . . . . LOL

It takes several weeks to get a rifle sent to people for this reason. So dont freak out if you are put on a waiting list. Shit Happens

Most parts are manufactured to .002 or .003 thousandths of an inch, if its out of spec then they have to go back to the start to fix the problems.  


Most people rate things on pure asthetics as they do not abuse their weapons in a combat enviroment or train frequently with them. So yes the damn Deer Head on Stag's look a little strange on an "Evil Assult Rifle" and a lot of people will say they suck because of this.

I have owned and abused many many many many firearms is my time.

I personally carried a Colt M4 for 5+ years and took it to war and back. Great Weapon. I was its first owner so I broke her in and popped her cherry. She was my Bitch. But guess what I dont own a single Colt Weapon.

I have my reasons and one is customer service. If your customer relations sucks then the hell with you. I will send my hard earned $ elsewhere.

Kinda like if you have car insurance and when you need it they say they have no rep's in the area so your screwed. This is after you have paid them thousands of $ over the years and when you need them they do their best to make you at fault and use you as a scape goat and keep your cash.

You dont always get what you pay for.

Shop around and get what you want not what other people want you to get.
Do it right the first time and you wont be doing it again.

MIST ALL MANUFACTURES ROCK except for Hesse and Vulcan. Their lowers and parts are shit.  Get yourself a block of wood and some whittling tools and you will end up with one thats more to spec and stronger than theirs unless you use white pine or balsa. . . . . . LOL . . . . . . . . you will end up with the same quality if you do. . . . . . . LOL

I have owned 3 dpms rifles and two additional uppers.  I have put at least 1000 rounds through each.  I haven't had any problems with any of them.  That is not to say they are the best, nor to deny insights offered by those who see literally hundreds of thousands of rounds a year like Pat Rogers.  Just my personal experience.  Of course, if the zombies landed and I had to take one rifle, it wouldn't be my dpms but my stag lower and Adco built Recce upper with a WOA bolt.

  I agree with an earlier post that said as soon as one of my dpms bolts or carriers breaks I'll be on here talking about it . Till then they are among the finest ar's I own . I have 2 dpms , 1 colt and 1 bushmaster . The only one to give me any trouble was the bushmaster . I see posts here all the time about bushmasters with problems and it chalked up as " well that happens " but when its a dpms " they suck " . I just don't get that ! All the big manufacturers produce top tier guns , sure a bad one can get out but that could happen to any one . Lets just be glad there are so many producers of fine ar's and accessories out there .    

Quoted: I was just wondering what specifically is wrong with DPMS.

- Product delivered was not as ordered - parts missing, work undone. Tried to convince me it was.
- Lied or misrepresented how barrel length is measured. Would have left me with an unreg SBR.
- Didn't want to correct thier mistake(s), just wanted to convince me they didn't exist to get me off the phone.
- Answers given in 2003, they were unable to confirm same in 2005. Guess they forgot how it was made?
- Inconsistencies between barrel markings and company marketing representations.

Quoted: I have my reasons and one is customer service. If your customer relations sucks then the hell with you. I will send my hard earned $ elsewhere.

Yeah, something like that. They may or may not make decent stuff but I lack confidence in the company because of the above experiences. Just my personal feelings on it.

They do make the best ambidextrous safety IMO.

Other then that I would say they rank slightly above Oly in quality!

Well, I can't offer any scientific assessment or anything else. I've seen two broken DPMS bolts firsthand myself. Both were the chromed DPMS bolts which makes me think they were probably chromed improperly and had issues with embrittlement as a result. I've also seen my fair share of smaller DPMS parts that broke. Maybe I have a skewed view of DPMS that would not be supported by a good statistical analysis; but since I don't have that I have to go with my own personal experience which says that while DPMS produces a lot of good stuff they aren't very solid on their QC.

Having said that, I know two local gun dealers who I respect and trust and they both carry DPMS and are very supportive of their products. I also know of a local DoD contractor who builds ancillary equipment for the M4 carbine and they use DPMS products in their testing - and it is pretty abusive testing.

I’ll admit, before recently I was a fan of DPMS, despite all of the horrible things I heard about their rifles I still gave them the benefit of the doubt just as I would with any manufacture. However the 13th of October I decided to buy a First Samco G-27 TAC grip for my Bushmaster Patrolmen, about eight days and no G-27 I decided to give them a call to check on my stuff, they informed me it had not been sent out yet and that they would try to ship it out the following Monday “try”. To rewind a little I placed an order for a Panther flash hider, I waited and waited and waited and still noting, so like my G-27 I decided to check up on my part and once again DPMS informed me the part had not been shipped out and to add on to that it was on back order and noone bothered to inform me, this took the cake and totally turned me against them.

Quoted: About 7 or 8 months ago I started looking into getting an AR.  I read on a few sites (including some on this one), and came to the decision that when buying I should stick to the "ABCDR's". I was under the impression that any of these would be a good choice. In fact I had read and heard from a few guys at the gym that DPMS was "awesome" for the money. I was under the impression that Olympic and Vulcan were brands to be avoided. Fast foward to now...  I bought a DPMS off a LEO about two months ago, and I can't really find anything wrong with it.  However, since that time I have read more and more "stay away from DPMS" posts/replies.  I was just wondering what specifically is wrong with DPMS. So far I have had no probs. Mine does have a few features that aren't DPMS standard (chrome lined and I think titanium BC) *BC is all silvery and carbon comes right off of it. I'm happy with mine so far, and I suppose that's what matters.  Just wondering why DPMS suddenly became "junk" after I bought one.

And so the answer to your question is:

DPMS products are totally inconsistent in their quality.  Some pieces go out perfect.  Others are full of defects.

A few years ago I bought a complete lower assy of theirs.  When I unwrapped it, I found a gouge in the buttstock, a totally out of spec bolt holdopen, that would gouge the upper, and worst of all, an upper w/the front lugs cut off center, so the upper was tilted on the lower when mounted.

More recently, I bought a stripped lower that I inspected before purchase; because the price was right.  The only "defect" on that one was that the forge lines had not been fully removed from the front wall or rear curve. That didn't bother me, because I planned to change the shade of the finish to Sandstrom 9A, and I took the lines off before I redid the thing.

Internals? Their hammers are great, their triggers OK, but the rest of their stuff is full of junky looking tool marks.  Had one of their chromed bolt carriers once. Totally garbaged up w/tool marks. Can't comment on their bolts since I never had one; but given the experience of others w/breakage. don't think I'd buy one.

Same w/barrels.  I use only Colt and Bushie pieces.

If you have a good DPMS piece, I'm happy for you;  but I tend to relate more w/the guys who got junky stuff from them

I mated a 16" HBAR DPMS barrel to a DPMS flat top upper which also happened to be my first build.

The good:  

- Exceptionally accurate upper.
- Reliably chambered and fired 223 ammo

The bad:

- The upper would not accomodate my ARMS #22 mounts, except under duress.  Even then, they went on crooked.
- It would not reliably chamber 5.56, which was probably due to it being a 223 chamber, so no harm no foul.

Assessment:  I would probably buy a DPMS lower but nothing elese.  Since I presently am inclined use RRA lowers with zero problems to date, that probably won't happen any time soon.  My experience with Colt and RRA has been 100% positive, so that's pretty much what I build on now.

The end

However the 13th of October I decided to buy a First Samco G-27 TAC grip for my Bushmaster Patrolmen, about eight days and no G-27 I decided to give them a call to check on my stuff, they informed me it had not been sent out yet and that they would try to ship it out the following Monday “try”.

Haven't you already posted about this in a seperate thread???

Some pieces go out perfect. Others are full of defects.

This can be said about ANY company!

This thread is kinda funny! If ya read this and then look at the troubleshooting forum ya would think that Bushmaster's name should be here! Seems more people are having trouble with Bushie's than DPMS.

The fact is when people say that DPMS sux it is an opinion. 1/2 the people who posted in this thread probably have not had any firsthand expierience with DPMS. They are just saying it because they feel that since they are over 1000 posts they are experts on the subject!

YES, I do own a DPMS! and from what I read I am glad I didn't spend the money on a Bushie!!!!!

Now there is my OPINION!

Quoted: This thread is kinda funny! If ya read this and then look at the troubleshooting forum ya would think that Bushmaster's name should be here! Seems more people are having trouble with Bushie's than DPMS.

Do you have a clue about what market share is?

The fact is when people say that DPMS sux it is an opinion. 1/2 the people who posted in this thread probably have not had any firsthand expierience with DPMS. They are just saying it because they feel that since they are over 1000 posts they are experts on the subject!

A blind, idiotic assumption.

YES, I do own a DPMS! and from what I read I am glad I didn't spend the money on a Bushie!!!!! Now there is my OPINION!

You added nothing but noise to the thread.  Came to the table with no facts, no information......  I am going to give you the award for most useless post of the day.... since Sgtar15 isnt posting here anymore.  

And the real question is, does DPMS make their own small parts and bolts or do they buy someone elses?

If Bushmasters market share is the reason there are more BM threads in the troubleshooting section wouldn't that woud indicate that their quality is no better than anyone elses???

That being said, I have two DPMS rifles.  One has been 100% reliable and the other was nothing but problems from the beginning.  I live 20 minutes from their factory so it was no big deal to bring it back to the to have it checked out......but it took three trips to make it run right (long story).    Now I cannot get it to malfunction no matter how much Wolf I shoot through it without cleaning.

Quoted: If Bushmasters market share is the reason there are more BM threads in the troubleshooting section wouldn't that woud indicate that their quality is no better than anyone elses???

From some of the threads on trouble shooting I have gathered that A LOT of people have absoloutly NO idea what they are doing, and they are the damn malfunction.  Its kinda like getting a car and never checking the oil and then one day down the road they throw a rod? Well I guess its the car manufacturers fault huh

"why do people say that DPMS sucks so bad"

that is easy to answer......because Colt and RRA brainwashes there customers to say so......

J/K about that....

in seriousness though, i have had nothing but great products from DPMS and i am very pleased.....i am a little worried about there bolt issues but i only use standard finished bolts(no hard chrome bolts).....but my worries are a little relieved when i see some of the pictures posted in the past of Colt bolts that were breaking also.....so it can happen to any manufacturer.....


until i am shown any different first hand i will continue to trust myself to my DPMS.....


my .02



camaro

Why do a lot of people say DPMS sucks so bad??   Because they are stupid. . . . and God hates them . . .

Quoted: Quoted: Why do a lot of people say DPMS sucks so bad??   Because they are stupid. . . . and God hates them . . . HAHA Real funny that made me laugh. Ya know I can take a bashing like anyone else but sometimes you can go a little to far. Everyone has a right to there own option even God.

The way I read it, I think he was referring to the people, not DPMS, as being of those characteristics. If he wasn't, then I think he owes an apology. Personally, I have a DPMS Panther Carbine that I absolutely love. I have made a few changes to it since I bought it though.

A.R.M.S.® #51 CV A1A2 S.I.R.® System
EOTech Holographic Weapon Sight -Model 512A65
Streamlight® “Scorpion” Tactical Light
Fobus Tactical Light Mount
SpecterGear® M.O.U.T. Single Point Sling (Black)
GG&G Sling Adapter
VLTOR Carbine/collapsible Modstock - Model# ACK-2S (Black)
Wilson Combat Tactical Latch
Hogue Grip
CNC Aluminum Vertical Grip (black anodized)

I would not have put the money into a weapon that is not going to be dependable. As a matter of fact, I am already planning my next DPMS (AP4 Panther Carbine). Shane has already priced it out for me. Here is the build sheet.

SureFire M900A Vertical Foregrip WeaponLight, with built-in A.R.M.S.® Throw Lever mount
A.R.M.S.® #58 M MOD
A.R.M.S.® #50 Top Rail
A.R.M.S. #40L SP rear flip sight
A.R.M.S.® #19Sacog Single Lever Mount
Trijicon TA-31 ACOG 4X32 Scope
First Samco G27 Tactical Grip (PG-627)
TROY Industries One-Point Tactical Sling (bought already)
YHM Carbine Single Mount Sling Adapter (YHM-9756) (bought already)
Panther Flash Hider (BL-YH)  
LMT SOPMOD Carbine Stock Assembly  
PRI Big Charging Handle Latch
PRI Flip front Sight

Quite frankly, I am more prone to put my money on DPMS than on Bushmaster or Colt. Before you guys get into an uproar, I am not a hater of any of the AR manufacturers. Sometimes there is more to life that paying for a name.

Do you have a clue about what market share is?

Why yes I do as a matter of fact!

A blind, idiotic assumption.

My opinion.....If ya wanna call it an assumption than be my guest!

You added nothing but noise to the thread. Came to the table with no facts, no information...... I am going to give you the award for most useless post of the day.... since Sgtar15 isnt posting here anymore

"takes a bow"..... Thank You!   I actually added an opinion (as you just did). Mabye I will just keep my mouth shut and keep my $25 bux also!