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Posted: 1/31/2011 7:13:19 AM EDT
Yesterday I went to the range and ran my spikes mid length through its paces.

In doing so, I shot with my trs-25 on it, then took it off and shot with my Samson BUIS. My TRS-25 is zero'd and is on target, however, I find Irons more appealing. I think its due to taking my time and brings out the core fundamentals of rifle shooting

I know the argument of how a RDS is more effective in a low light environment as well as quicker, however, I am seriously thinking about reverting back to my A2 carry handle and running the A2 setup for sometime.

Am I crazy for wanting to do this? Just felt like sharing my thoughts with the hive.

- Fin



Link Posted: 1/31/2011 7:36:07 AM EDT
Not crazy at all in my opinion. It is quicker with a RDS, I have an H1. But being able to run BUIS quickly I think is just like you said, going back to fundamentals. To bad I'm not quick on 'em though
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 7:40:15 AM EDT
No way.

Good irons are a joy to use. They foster proper technique, and bring you back to fundamentals. I consider plain Jane M-series sights to be good, and use them as my most frequent sighting choice.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 7:51:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 7:51:56 AM EDT by Gacksnabbit]

I like irons too. Right now I have the Diamondhead sights on my first build and love them but my last two AR's were A1 and A2 style. I actually liked the A1 set up a lot. Set it and forget it. I know an RDS is fast but I like irons.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 8:39:04 AM EDT
You like irons because you are still young enough to use them.

Enjoy!
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 8:57:07 AM EDT
Not crazy. I love my A2's. I run them more then I run anything else.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:05:44 AM EDT
I use irons on my spike's mid length as well. With cheapo reloads and bulk ammo, I can easily keep on a pie plate at 100 yards from all positions and make hits out to 200 yards from prone or kneeling with some concentration. I put an aimpoint comp M2 with an aimpoint mount on the gun and didn't like the added weight and bulk. For a budget HD/KISS rifle, I like the irons along with a mounted surefire light and sling only. If I was some sort of tactical operator, it might be different.

On another note, I have been nothing but thrilled with my Spike's midlength upper and have recommended them to several friends building their own ARs.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:08:58 AM EDT
The RDS makes it too easy and irons are more fun but most of my shooting is competitive so I shoot 99.9% of the time with a RDS.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 9:09:52 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Him:
You like irons because you are still young enough to use them.

Enjoy!


There is some truth to this I'm sure.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 10:10:05 AM EDT
I shoot significantly better with my RDS, which is cool. But, it's almost too easy sometimes. I am not a great shot, but the RDS makes small groups easy for me (3" or so at 100 yards with M193). That's good for me. Maybe not for most others. Where with iorns, I really have to concentrate to get groups of less than 5-6" at 100 yards. Sometimes, the challenge is the fun part.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 10:42:07 AM EDT
Because its the standard way to hit with a rifle..no batteries and tough as nails.When murphy rears its ugly head the irons will still be there to be able to hit with.I love red dots but im not dependant on them and as far as speed...ive taken classes where ive hit targets faster and more accurately with the larger arperture than guys using red dots.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 11:23:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 11:25:28 AM EDT by Finslayer83]
Originally Posted By pun:
Because its the standard way to hit with a rifle..no batteries and tough as nails.When murphy rears its ugly head the irons will still be there to be able to hit with.I love red dots but im not dependant on them and as far as speed...ive taken classes where ive hit targets faster and more accurately with the larger arperture than guys using red dots.


This is what got me thinking.

Its either use my A2 handle or get a solid fixed rear option like the LaRue / Troy / etc... fixed BUIS.

The optic can go down, but one of these options will be much better than a flip up option. One good drop / bang up on the Samson, and I think its a goner.

ETA: Daniel Defense 1.5 to the list.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 11:26:51 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Gacksnabbit:

I like irons too. Right now I have the Diamondhead sights on my first build and love them but my last two AR's were A1 and A2 style. I actually liked the A1 set up a lot. Set it and forget it. I know an RDS is fast but I like irons.


+1
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 11:31:16 AM EDT
Irons do everything well, that's why. Optics are just specialty tools for specific tasks.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:27:16 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 3:21:32 AM EDT by Strongbow]
If you enjoy shooting that way, go for it. But I think an RDS> irons for a defensive weapon, so long as the RDS is a quality piece of gear.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 12:46:01 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:10:34 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Strongbow:
If you enjoy shooting that way, do for it. But I think an RDS> irons for a defensive weapon, so long as the RDS is a quality piece of gear.


This is true.

I don't consider my TRS-25 to be top notch by any means.

Had I a nice aimpoint I might feel differently.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:11:03 PM EDT
Iron's are fun, that's what I use on my .22lr AR.

For my "serious" gun, I have an EOTECH which is on the low end of the quality red dots.
Better optic, better red dot experience.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:14:29 PM EDT
Irons are fun until you have to shoot under something or in an awkward position.

I'd trust an aimpoint to last as long as my irons, iron sights are just thin pieces of metal anyways and an aimpoint has very little that can go wrong. I can leave an aimpoint on for a year or two and not have to fuck with anything, just shoulder the rifle.

Went through a carbine class with irons and never want to do that again, irons were fine up until we actually started shooting fast and from behind cover. And realistically if I'm ever going to use a rifle I'm going to be behind something trying to expose as little of me as possible for as short a time as possible. And trying to shoot under things, around things, urban prone, SBU prone,etc with irons takes a lot longer if I can even get a sight picture at all due to awkward positioning.

Irons are fun when standing or kneeling but overall I'd say a quality RDS fits a wider variety of situations than irons do.

Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:15:19 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Him:
You like irons because you are still young enough to use them.

Enjoy!


Winnah! (and apparently another old fart like me)
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:19:41 PM EDT
Even though I have an Aimpoint T1 and have had a dozen other Aimpoints over the years, I still shoot with irons 100 percent of the time. My T1 lives in the box in my closet. My primary AR has a slick side A1 upper. I fully understand the benefit of an Aimpoint, but the dot looks like a comma to me and that distracts me to the point of causing me to be slower than with my tritium front sight post. Besides, I am not a professional gunfighter. This is a hobby for me and the extra second for target acquisition is not a matter of life or death.




Rob
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:26:23 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 1:29:01 PM EDT by pun]
Finslayer you could always go this route wich will give you the toughness of a fixed rear BUIS..get a used carry handle off the EE and cut it down like the way the $100 LMT one looks...and you can get handles used for $35 to $50 I would go that route cheap and quality toughI use a MAD from GG&G but yea you sacrafice better durability as flip ups are definately more fragile than fixed or carry handle.I just bought a used carry handle myself to do just that.I have a utility pouch on my rig that holds spare parts and oil and the cut down handle will be added to back up the BUIS for more duribilty.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:35:02 PM EDT
I like irons because Im cheap and dont want to pay $500+ on RDS
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:50:46 PM EDT
I do have a used carry handle.....and a saw...

hmm.

I like these options.

Link Posted: 1/31/2011 1:57:02 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 1:58:10 PM EDT by pun]
Im tellin ya man cheap and strong and just as good as the LMT sight.And now youve met your requirement and at no cost to you
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 2:05:31 PM EDT
Though I like my scopes and dots I always make sure every rifle with them as the ability to quickly go to BUIS. I am this way with all my rifles not just my AR's
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 3:24:19 PM EDT
Im a boob man myself
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 3:54:59 PM EDT
I like them =
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:55:38 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 4:59:04 PM EDT by RifleTwo]
Why not both? Iron sights with boobs as a back-drop are my fav.

But really. I love my Irons as well. ARMS #40 rear and ARMS #41 front.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 4:56:40 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/31/2011 4:57:49 PM EDT by RifleTwo]
double post....dang sorry
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 5:57:13 PM EDT
I run a standard FSB and a LMT fixed rear on all my sticks.
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 6:47:42 PM EDT
I'm dealing with encroaching old fartdom (basic at Ord in '70), and I still shoot irons pretty well. The A1s are best on 20", but I have a 15-22 set up like my Gummint Carbine for lots of cheap practice. I use the skunk-stripe XS front sight on the carbines; it's easier to pick up against a broken background. Not quite as precise, but easier to see; I use the original A2 rears for better depth of field.
Tech sights on a 10-22 are another way to get iron sight practice.
And you do need practice to stay on top of irons, but I like the reasonable cost and simplicity.
Moon
Link Posted: 1/31/2011 8:29:50 PM EDT
Batteries not required.

Just Skill at Arms
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 5:27:22 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 7:34:03 AM EDT by Finslayer83]
Is there a chop your A2 tutorial anywhere?

ETA: found it here
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:05:55 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
Is there a chop your A2 tutorial anywhere?



Try the optics forum, there used to be one there.

Irons are fun, I enjoy shooting them, and first learned how to use them in OSUT in '93. I even own a 14.5 LW middy with an A1 upper (my mini-A1) for nostalgia.

But.....and this topic really is beating a dead horse.....

Iron sights should be secondary on any kind of working weapon. I'm saying that as a LE Firearms Instructor with 18 years total experience working with the M16 FOW. Yes, a good shooter with irons can be faster and more accurate than an average shooter with a red dot. Until you add movement, low light, effective use of cover, moving targets, etc. You know, all those things you might find in a real fight (or good 3-gun stage).

To the IRONS are more reliable crowd: You can't use those irons if you can't see them. I always hear that irons are more reliable because RDS rely on batteries (that last from 500-50,000 hours). At night you must depend on your light to illuminate your irons and your target, but I have had flashlights (most rated 1-2 hours) go down without warning more than once. That's why I carry a back up. I have NEVER seen an Aimpoint fail.

And how do you line up your iron sights on a target 25 yards away on a perimeter at night without compromising your position with a white light? No problem with a RDS, just put the dot on the bad guy. Low-light conditions can be found 24/7, not just at night. Ever have to clear a building during the day?

Yes, irons worked for years as the primary sighting system. Spears were the main infantry weapon for thousands of years, but eventually history moved on. Same principle at work here, irons still work, but optics work better. The objective should be to use the most effective tools available to make sure that we always win.

That good shooter will be even better with an optic, and that average shooter will be able to make HITS with an optic that he/she wouldn't have been able to with irons only. That might save my life (or yours) one day.

Stay Safe,
Rob
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:11:43 AM EDT
Got to love the mark1 eye ball .putting rounds on target for hundreds of years ,but good optics just enhance the mk1 eye ball I love my aim point and my acog.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:14:19 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 8:33:43 AM EDT by pun]
Iron sights secondary... I think they are primary to a weapon especially any external aiming device batterie operated or not.Acessories of anykind are secondary as any firearm designed comes with its own sighting system...irons.The whole thing is this,anything batterie dependant can fail its not 100%...iron sights are 100%...ive taken classes up at sig arms where the training is real world and people that are red dot dependant have the most trouble because they dont know how to use the iron sights when their fool proof red dots go down.

Ive seen aimpoints fail and run out of juice depending on type of batterie used..the point is nothings more reliable than non batterie dependant sights thats why I use the mini-acog all the red dot good ness with no batterie.Yes in the dark or low light or on the move in certain situations sometimes you cant see irons....but Its easy to see irons in any light night or day when you install night sights and those have been around since the A1 rifle.I also have night sights on my handguns or maybe I should acog those too?I have a set a trijicons for the AR15 for this reason front post and rear arperture.Its set so the dot on my acog covers the front posts dot anyways so no probelms seeing.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:16:40 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Him:
You like irons because you are still young enough to use them.

Enjoy!


+1.
Old eyes suck.

Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:33:51 AM EDT
Whats the best fixed style rear BUIS?

I might keep the A2 intact just to have the option.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:36:34 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/1/2011 8:39:04 AM EDT by pun]
Daniel defense makes a nice fixed rear,the LMT is nice but for $100 you could make your own,try also midwest industries..most manufacturers of flip ups make some kind of fixed unit.On my gear I replaced the full size handle with a cut down one but I agree I kept a full handle cause I like that look as well..plus the cut down one is more compact and does the same with the advantage of still having my optic mounted.
Link Posted: 2/1/2011 8:54:04 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
Whats the best fixed style rear BUIS?

I might keep the A2 intact just to have the option.


I have the fixed larue qd buis - quality piece of gear.
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 6:33:51 AM EDT
i only trust irons but optics can be useful so i cowitness
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 6:43:55 AM EDT
I rock the daniel defense fixed irons. thought I had a compM2, but the deal with that went south. oh well. I love my irons anyways. set with the large apeture its good to go
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 6:50:03 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2011 6:53:10 AM EDT by anesvick]
Originally Posted By RobNC:
Originally Posted By Finslayer83:
Is there a chop your A2 tutorial anywhere?



Try the optics forum, there used to be one there.

Irons are fun, I enjoy shooting them, and first learned how to use them in OSUT in '93. I even own a 14.5 LW middy with an A1 upper (my mini-A1) for nostalgia.

But.....and this topic really is beating a dead horse.....

Iron sights should be secondary on any kind of working weapon. I'm saying that as a LE Firearms Instructor with 18 years total experience working with the M16 FOW. Yes, a good shooter with irons can be faster and more accurate than an average shooter with a red dot. Until you add movement, low light, effective use of cover, moving targets, etc. You know, all those things you might find in a real fight (or good 3-gun stage).

To the IRONS are more reliable crowd: You can't use those irons if you can't see them. I always hear that irons are more reliable because RDS rely on batteries (that last from 500-50,000 hours). At night you must depend on your light to illuminate your irons and your target, but I have had flashlights (most rated 1-2 hours) go down without warning more than once. That's why I carry a back up. I have NEVER seen an Aimpoint fail.

And how do you line up your iron sights on a target 25 yards away on a perimeter at night without compromising your position with a white light? No problem with a RDS, just put the dot on the bad guy. Low-light conditions can be found 24/7, not just at night. Ever have to clear a building during the day?

Yes, irons worked for years as the primary sighting system. Spears were the main infantry weapon for thousands of years, but eventually history moved on. Same principle at work here, irons still work, but optics work better. The objective should be to use the most effective tools available to make sure that we always win.

That good shooter will be even better with an optic, and that average shooter will be able to make HITS with an optic that he/she wouldn't have been able to with irons only. That might save my life (or yours) one day.

Stay Safe,
Rob


Well said Rob, an RDS or ACOG wouldn't be mounted on almost every soldier's weapon if they weren't effective.

I still remember getting my first aimpoint back in 2001, it changed the way I thought about sights and it was AWESOME for deer stalking with a slug gun in northern indiana (damn no rifle laws). No sooner had I got one than I had 3, 2 more for my ARs at the time. and I was happy with 500 hr battery life. You get 80,000 with an M4, or this little dinky thing called the micro, which is just as tough as its big bros but weighs 1/2 as much, its just amazing how far it all has come.

I don't consider irons now more than an amusement, or a sighting method of last resort. Thanks to my craptastic vision, I'm only good to 50 yards with em and then... it better be sunny.
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 6:50:28 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 2/2/2011 6:51:09 AM EDT by quijanos]
Originally Posted By damcv62:
Not crazy. I love my A2's. I run them more then I run anything else.


Love A2's fixed. Learned, trained, deployed and used them in the Marine Corps. Qualified yearly out to 500meters with them. They are very underated and highly effective.

Link Posted: 2/2/2011 6:51:07 AM EDT
Iron sight shooting is a dying art to the masses...Stick with it
Link Posted: 2/2/2011 8:35:23 AM EDT
A2 handle was mounted last night and boresighted.

I'll get to the range and report back on how it goes
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